East Anglia fleet future cascade options

[D365]

Abellio have said it's actually 6x321s and 12x317s (i.e. 72 vehicles) - as quoted by ginger in the other thread and by Richard Clinnick on Twitter - in which case it is highly likely to be the 317s and and some of the 321 sets released from GN by the 700s.

You mean the Class 387s? We're not getting any Class 700s in service this year.

I'm pretty sure they will actually be 115m, but yes the vehicle lengths of the 5 car and 10 car sets will be different.

I find that very strange, as normally you'd expect the shorter unit to be designed either with the option to be converted to a standard 10 car, or that two units in multiple will have an equivalent capacity.

 

[43074]

You mean the Class 387s? We're not getting any Class 700s in service this year.

Yes, oops getting ahead of myself. (Although of course, indirectly the 700s are releasing the 387s which are freeing up the 317s/321s...)

 

[Rick1984]

Cl156 to East Midlands

Cl153 to above, GW or ATW

Cl170 probably to XC

Cl321 refurbished sets to LM to replace Cl319 and provide additional stock
Unrefrurbished to Scotrail to form more 320 for additional stock and release Cl385 earlier from Cathcart Circle and more modern units on other services

Cl360 to LM with some Cl350 to SWT moddified to Cl450

Cl379 to C2C

Cl317 scrap

Cl90 freight and spot hire

Mkiii spot hire to replace non-CET stock

My plan with the EMU's is mostly focused on increasing number of units in existing fleets. Providing longer trains and more spare units.

 

[43074]

Don't know why everyone is so keen on finding a home for absolutely every 321 unit, a good proportion of the 321s will be scrapped whatever happens - there will be 115 examples of Classes 321/322 with nothing to do in 2020 as it stands, and that's a significant number of units of which relatively few will be DDA compliant for work post 2020. Many of the units they replaced did 30 years' service, there's no reason the 321s and 322s won't be the same.

Some may find alternative uses if anyone authorises any ''budget'' electrification schemes to use some of the compliant units, although given the slow pace at which things happen on the railways these days I doubt it.

 

[Wivenswold]

I find that very strange, as normally you'd expect the shorter unit to be designed either with the option to be converted to a standard 10 car, or that two units in multiple will have an equivalent capacity.

I was surprised but I'm hoping the fixed 10 car trains are configured for longer distance workings with perhaps a full first class carriage at the London end and maybe even a drinks machine or two. I'd be very surprised if they aren't for the commuter runs to Cambridge, Kings Lynn, Ipswich and Clacton services plus a few of the Norwich stoppers and maybe even one or two Southend Vic commuter runs.

The 5 cars will probably have a more high-capacity layout, smaller first class and one toilet per unit.

 

[southern442]

Many of the units they replaced did 30 years' service, there's no reason the 321s and 322s won't be the same.

I think that rolling stock should be able to have at least 40 years of service before replacement is discussed. Our country isn't the worst for it, but there are several examples of longer lasting train types. The 0 series shinkansen lasted 44 years in service, the A stock lasted 52 years in service, and plenty of TGV's are still in service that were built before the class 321s. They still have a good 10 years left in them, and it should only be then that replacement is discussed.

 

[J-2739]

I think that rolling stock should be able to have at least 40 years of service before replacement is discussed. Our country isn't the worst for it, but there are several examples of longer lasting train types. The 0 series shinkansen lasted 44 years in service, the A stock lasted 52 years in service, and plenty of TGV's are still in service that were built before the class 321s. They still have a good 10 years left in them, and it should only be then that replacement is discussed.

Not to be a pendant, but the 0 series trains that lasted into 2008 were the ones that were built in 1986, not 1964. And quite a few of the earlier TGVs have been withdrawn already. That's what should happen to some of the 321s; withdraw the surplus and/or the ones which are in worst condition.

 

[southern442]

Not to be a pendant, but the 0 series trains that lasted into 2008 were the ones that were built in 1986, not 1964.

My mistake.

And quite a few of the earlier TGVs have been withdrawn already.

Only 4 original TGV's have been withdrawn I believe.

 

[Mordac]

Not to be a pendant, but the 0 series trains that lasted into 2008 were the ones that were built in 1986, not 1964. And quite a few of the earlier TGVs have been withdrawn already. That's what should happen to some of the 321s; withdraw the surplus and/or the ones which are in worst condition.

Just don't dangle off anywhere then

 

[Tempest3K]

MK3s - Scrap. Probably.

I can't see MK3s going for scrap at this point unless they are in very poor condition - Spot hire & charters seem more likely for now and I'm pretty sure there will be interest from preservation groups/railways if they come up for sale

 

[MatthewRead]

Cl156 to East Midlands

Cl153 to above, GW or ATW

Cl170 probably to XC

Cl321 refurbished sets to LM to replace Cl319 and provide additional stock
Unrefrurbished to Scotrail to form more 320 for additional stock and release Cl385 earlier from Cathcart Circle and more modern units on other services

Cl360 to LM with some Cl350 to SWT moddified to Cl450

Cl379 to C2C

Cl317 scrap

Cl90 freight and spot hire

Mkiii spot hire to replace non-CET stock

My plan with the EMU's is mostly focused on increasing number of units in existing fleets. Providing longer trains and more spare units.

I think this would be better
Class 153: Convert back to 155 and sent to Northern
Class 156 send to either EMT or Northern
Class 170 send to either Northern or Cross Country
Class 90 the freight sector MK3 could be converted to additional sleeper cars.
Class 317 send to Northern or Wales
Class 321 send to Wales or the South West
Class 360 send to operate the new Oxford to Hethrow service
Class 379 Convert to IPEMU and use on non-electrified routes on the GWR network.

 

[Brian Aylott]

I think this would be better
Class 153: Convert back to 155 and sent to Northern
Class 156 send to either EMT or Northern
Class 170 send to either Northern or Cross Country
Class 90 the freight sector MK3 could be converted to additional sleeper cars.
Class 317 send to Northern or Wales
Class 321 send to Wales or the South West
Class 360 send to operate the new Oxford to Hethrow service
Class 379 Convert to IPEMU and use on non-electrified routes on the GWR network.

Have you really thought this through?
For example:-
Who is going to want additional sleepers when there will soon be only one up and one down MK3 GWR sleeper running with the ex Caledonian Sleeper MK3s rusting away in sidings?
Where are the electrified lines in the SW for these 321s?
Why spend a fortune on converting 153s and 379s?
The 153s don't meet the 1/1/2020 disabilty requirements and the 379s are at present fine units as they are
I don't understand who will 'send' these units to these franchises as at present the franchise operator decides the train plan
I assume that you are thinking a long time in the future when the labour party prime minister is in power and the railways are re-nationised!
Etc
Brian

 

[Class 319]

East West Rail is scheduled to open in 2019/2020. Could 321s or 360s (including 5 car versions) be used there?

 

[northwichcat]

I think this would be better

Class 317 send to Northern or Wales

Do you realise Northern will have an electric fleet of 43 x 331s, 16 x 333s and 27 x 319s by the time GA's new EMUs are all in operation and there could be plenty more 319s off-lease, so why would they need/want 317s?

Class 153: Convert back to 155 and sent to Northern

Northern are off-loading their 153s as well so they probably won't need converted 153s. I imagine if 153s are reformed in to 2 car sets they'll remain as 153s due to it being too costly to undo some of the previous modifications.

 

[traji00]

What's the latest on WRAtH? That could have been a possibility for the 379s...

(Apologies if already mentioned)

 

[cjmillsnun]

Cl360 to LM with some Cl350 to SWT moddified to Cl450

TBH LM won't want to give up the 350/1s which is what would have to come to SWT (as they already are equipped for DC), and if they did, they won't become 450s. The pans and transformers would likely go into storage, and a software update carried out so that the TMS doesn't look for them. Otherwise apart from an interior refurb, they will work without further modification with 444s and 450s.

 

[bramling]

Don't know why everyone is so keen on finding a home for absolutely every 321 unit, a good proportion of the 321s will be scrapped whatever happens - there will be 115 examples of Classes 321/322 with nothing to do in 2020 as it stands, and that's a significant number of units of which relatively few will be DDA compliant for work post 2020. Many of the units they replaced did 30 years' service, there's no reason the 321s and 322s won't be the same.

Some may find alternative uses if anyone authorises any ''budget'' electrification schemes to use some of the compliant units, although given the slow pace at which things happen on the railways these days I doubt it.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some class 321s eventually staying with the Anglia franchise. Many new fleets ordered in recent years have ended up proving too small.

Whilst it's quite possible we may see 321s being scrapped nominally early, I hope this will be a last resort. So only when there's no overcrowding on AC routes where platform lengths are not an issue, and only when there are no new electrification schemes requiring new stock, etc. They're very acceptable trains, and every effort should be made to derive maximum use out of them as far as possible.

 

[jayiscupid]

I think that rolling stock should be able to have at least 40 years of service before replacement is discussed. Our country isn't the worst for it, but there are several examples of longer lasting train types. The 0 series shinkansen lasted 44 years in service, the A stock lasted 52 years in service, and plenty of TGV's are still in service that were built before the class 321s. They still have a good 10 years left in them, and it should only be then that replacement is discussed.

Most Shinkansen trains are only designed for a 20 year life as the Japanese want to leverage newer more efficient designs and technology rather than try to keep 20+ year old trains running on what is effectively a 270km/h metro service.

The exceptions to this have been removed from front line high speed and used on the stopping services (and normally reduced from 16 cars to 6 or 8).

 

[Rick1984]

TBH LM won't want to give up the 350/1s which is what would have to come to SWT (as they already are equipped for DC), and if they did, they won't become 450s.

Indeed. That's why suggested LM taking on all Cl360( Including HC). Like for like replacement and they already run non-gangway connection stock. This could free up some 350s for SWT. Ideally 350/2 but as the 350/1 are already Dual voltage that might be cheaper, with interior layouts adjusted accordingly.

 

[43074]

I wouldn't be surprised to see some class 321s eventually staying with the Anglia franchise. Many new fleets ordered in recent years have ended up proving too small.

Whilst it's quite possible we may see 321s being scrapped nominally early, I hope this will be a last resort. So only when there's no overcrowding on AC routes where platform lengths are not an issue, and only when there are no new electrification schemes requiring new stock, etc. They're very acceptable trains, and every effort should be made to derive maximum use out of them as far as possible.

Yes they're good trains but I don't see where else they could go, or why they would keep 321s when there will be newer 360s and 379s at their disposal? New trains seem to be the ''in'' thing at the moment, unless NR get on with some ''Paisley'' style electrification schemes in the meantime and use some 321s in that way.

 

[387star]

Can the 379s be fitted with shoe gear very easily or would this be inhibitive ?

Secondly what type of seating is used on 379s? People say it is the best on any electrostar but I haven't seen it in use elsewhere?

Is stansted express a longer journey than gatwick express? Assume so as those first class seats look mighty fine!

 

[J-2739]

Can the 379s be fitted with shoe gear very easily or would this be inhibitive ?

Secondly what type of seating is used on 379s? People say it is the best on any electrostar but I haven't seen it in use elsewhere?

Since the 379 is just some other Electrostar, I can imagine installing some shoe gears wouldn't be hard, but maybe the current software preludes this?

Specialised airline seating for what service it usually works on.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Indeed. That's why suggested LM taking on all Cl360( Including HC). Like for like replacement and they already run non-gangway connection stock. This could free up some 350s for SWT. Ideally 350/2 but as the 350/1 are already Dual voltage that might be cheaper, with interior layouts adjusted accordingly.

Do SWT want any more stock? Once the 707s are in operation there will be plenty of 450s freed up from the Reading route (as the 458/5s displaced by the 707s go in to replace them). That will be enough to make many more 12 car sets. The network is at capacity in the peaks anyway so you can't run extra trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Since the 379 is just some other Electrostar, I can imagine installing some shoe gears wouldn't be hard, but maybe the current software preludes this?

Specialised airline seating for what service it usually works on.

It all depends. The other designs had shoegear from the start and were wired with provision for dual voltage.

I believe that new EMUs for DC areas are normally dual voltage capable as the DC network is limited, however AC stock can be AC only,

 

[Ianno87]

Can the 379s be fitted with shoe gear very easily or would this be inhibitive ?

Secondly what type of seating is used on 379s? People say it is the best on any electrostar but I haven't seen it in use elsewhere?

Is stansted express a longer journey than gatwick express? Assume so as those first class seats look mighty fine!

I first found the profile of 379 seats a little weird, but now I comfortably sit on my 67 minute commute on them and barely notice.

The First Class seats do look niiiiice. But never actually sat in one (I should give on a quick cheeky 'try' on a walk through the train some time)

 

[stu227]

Can the 379s be fitted with shoe gear very easily or would this be inhibitive ?

Secondly what type of seating is used on 379s? People say it is the best on any electrostar but I haven't seen it in use elsewhere?

Is stansted express a longer journey than gatwick express? Assume so as those first class seats look mighty fine!

Seats in 1st seem to be same as MkIVs on ECML.

 

[bramling]

Yes they're good trains but I don't see where else they could go, or why they would keep 321s when there will be newer 360s and 379s at their disposal? New trains seem to be the ''in'' thing at the moment, unless NR get on with some ''Paisley'' style electrification schemes in the meantime and use some 321s in that way.

Yes unfortunately I think this may well turn out to be an accurate, if undesirable, analysis of the situation. Apart from Cardiff, which even if gold-plated to the maximum still won't take even a majority of the 321s, I'm struggling to think of schemes which could utilise large numbers of units. I do think it would be preferable to ditch the 319s over the 321s though, as the 321 is slightly newer and generally seems to be more reliable.

What this all says to me is that the 321s, and probably the 317s too, should be staying in service with Anglia, albeit with a proper (I mean proper, not just new seat covers) refurbishment. They should replace the Norwich sets and DMUs as there is a good need for this, but the units should remain until their natural lifespan has expired. In the case of the 317s, one minute life extension of 15-20 years is being talked about, next minute they're almost inevitably going to be scrapped potentially within 5 years. The whole thing sounds a bit of a mess.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes unfortunately I think this may well turn out to be an accurate, if undesirable, analysis of the situation. Apart from Cardiff, which even if gold-plated to the maximum still won't take even a majority of the 321s, I'm struggling to think of schemes which could utilise large numbers of units. I do think it would be preferable to ditch the 319s over the 321s though, as the 321 is slightly newer and generally seems to be more reliable.

What this all says to me is that the 321s, and probably the 317s too, should be staying in service with Anglia, albeit with a proper (I mean proper, not just new seat covers) refurbishment. They should replace the Norwich sets and DMUs as there is a good need for this, but the units should remain until their natural lifespan has expired. In the case of the 317s, one minute life extension of 15-20 years is being talked about, next minute they're almost inevitably going to be scrapped potentially within 5 years. The whole thing sounds a bit of a mess.

But they're not staying at Anglia under current plans. It appears that currently it's cheaper to buy new than refurbish old so what would be the business case for the latter option? Trains are after all just lumps of metal, plastic and glass and can be recycled and reborn as something else.

 

[47802]

Yes unfortunately I think this may well turn out to be an accurate, if undesirable, analysis of the situation. Apart from Cardiff, which even if gold-plated to the maximum still won't take even a majority of the 321s, I'm struggling to think of schemes which could utilise large numbers of units. I do think it would be preferable to ditch the 319s over the 321s though, as the 321 is slightly newer and generally seems to be more reliable.

What this all says to me is that the 321s, and probably the 317s too, should be staying in service with Anglia, albeit with a proper (I mean proper, not just new seat covers) refurbishment. They should replace the Norwich sets and DMUs as there is a good need for this, but the units should remain until their natural lifespan has expired. In the case of the 317s, one minute life extension of 15-20 years is being talked about, next minute they're almost inevitably going to be scrapped potentially within 5 years. The whole thing sounds a bit of a mess.

So if its an overall better business case to buy new trains which will they go for I wonder, but hang on no never mind the business case, some rail enthusiasts say we have to keep the 321's for at least 40 years.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If it came down to either all 321s being scrapped or all 319s being scrapped, wouldn't it be best to keep the 319s and scrap the 321s as 319s have dual-voltage capability, even though that capability might not ever again be needed?

Long term (next decade) once TOCs order a few more new-builds I'd expect to see all 319s and 321s scrapped. Probably many of the 31x classes will get scrapped over the next few years.

Could Southern ever justify using 319s on their West Coastway route?

 

[J-2739]

If it came down to either all 321s being scrapped or all 319s being scrapped, wouldn't it be best to keep the 319s and scrap the 321s as 319s have dual-voltage capability, even though that capability might not ever again be needed?

Long term (next decade) once TOCs order a few more new-builds I'd expect to see all 319s and 321s scrapped. Probably many of the 31x classes will get scrapped over the next few years.

Could Southern ever justify using 319s on their West Coastway route?

You've answered your own question; if you wouldn't make use of the DV capability, then what's the use securing them when the 321s are all available and also more reliable?

Pretty much nearly all 31x classes future is in the scrapyard due to no more use in them. I see some 321s surviving, but the surplus must go.

Like above, newer EMUs will be available by the end of this decade which would make the remaining 319s 'useless'. I imagine some displaced 377s will take over instead, or are all the displaced 377s from Thameslink all going to South Eastern?