Dundee electrification plans

[hwl]

I realise that trains don’t pull full current all the time and the rating of the supply point depends upon diversity factor. How is this worked out and could this particular area supply a couple of class 99s and a 80x at the same time?

It could cope with a 99 and 2x 9car 80x all at full power at the same time. Given the local line speeds nothing would require full power for too long.

Battery recharging would be interesting but still pretty useful.

If the scope is as small as just "Dundee - Montrose" as suggested in one of the documents then you have just 30 route miles.

The normal worst in that minimalist supply section on the current time table would be an 80x, a 5car HST and a 3car 170 and replacing the later two with slightly higher capacity with EMU or BEMU you would still only be using ~two-thirds of the available capacity.
Also the journey times would come down with all electric traction so there are likley to be fewer trains in the future supply section concurrently.
(fast services have average speeds of just under 60mph and stopping services average just under 30mph)

 

[Brubulus]

That could easily handle ~ 40 coaches of high performance EMU at full power (i.e. acclerating hard not just maintining speed).
It sound low compared to elsewhere where feeds have typically have been ~80MW from 400kV but how much actual traffic drawing lots of power at the same time will there be?

The key question is how big is the supply area?
There looks to be good easy supply opportunities from 275kV around Perth (intersecting or close to the three routes around the outskirts) and along the Laurencekirk - Stonehaven section hence it may only be feeding the track inside the area bounded by something like the Grange - Cupar - Arbroath.
(Was there any clear plan on the Northern most extent of the Fife electrification feeding?)

There aren't any plans for batteries in the same site, in order to moderate loads on the grid by any chance? However I suspect most trains taking advantage of this electrification will have battery facilities that could be used to reduce demand at peak times.

 

[The exile]

Am I missing something ?
I noted this in the report

These will deliver power to the newly electrified lines between Dundee to Montrose.

When was Dundee to Montrose electrified ?

Presumably suggesting that they will be after / by the time (depending on how optimistic you are) this is built.

 

[hwl]

There aren't any plans for batteries in the same site, in order to moderate loads on the grid by any chance? However I suspect most trains taking advantage of this electrification will have battery facilities that could be used to reduce demand at peak times.

Onboard battery i.e. BEMUs as "Fife" - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen is unlike to go live at the same time.

(There is already 135MW supply power of DNO connected battery in the Dundee area all connected to the same 132kV supply we are talking about).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I thought it worth posting this PWI lecture on YouTube by Paul Hooper. Around 7.25 (I will also try and post a screen shot), it shows the location proposed of all the grid feeders in Scotland for the planned electrification. It shows that the planned Grid Feeder at Dundee is in fact at Invergowrie. The southern limit is of course North Thornton.

 

[kkong]

It shows that the planned Grid Feeder at Dundee is in fact at Invergowrie.

I think the plans must have been developed further since that presentation, which was made in April 2022.

It would make little sense to run an underground 25kV cable all the way from East Dock Street across Dundee city centre to Invergowrie.

The planning application states that the feeder station will be located "near to Dundee railway station", which would be a stretch (to put it mildly) to describe Invergowrie.

 

[hwl]

I think the plans must have been developed further since that presentation, which was made in April 2022.

It would make little sense to run an underground 25kV cable all the way from East Dock Street across Dundee city centre to Invergowrie.

The planning application states that the feeder station will be located "near to Dundee railway station", which would be a stretch (to put it mildly) to describe Invergowrie.

Agreed on the significant change in plans since then.

 

[TrainViation]

Am I missing something ?
I noted this in the report

These will deliver power to the newly electrified lines between Dundee to Montrose.

When was Dundee to Montrose electrified ?

Dundee to Montrose is not currently electrified, but will be in the next 5-10 years.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Dundee to Montrose is not currently electrified, but will be in the next 5-10 years.

Thanks for the clarification.
AFAIK the electrification schemes in Scotland are currently East Kilbride and the line towards Kilmarnock over in the West, and the Haymarket - Dalmeny scheme in Lothian - clearly more than is happening South of Hadrians Wall

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This is the information I have/had in a Word document rather than map format

Recent or Existing Scottish Grid Feeders

Currie - new or improved to be built?
Portobello
Innerwick
Harker (just on the UK side)
Ecclefechan
Elvanfoot
Gowkthrapple
Saltcoats
Dalreoch
Port Glasgow
Parkhead

Planned for Decarbonisation Strategy

Thornton - applied for
Invergowrie - now Dundee
Drumlithie
Kintore
Elgin
Beauly
Avielochan
Faskally
Greenloaning
Marshall Meadows (just on the English side) - Static Frequency Converter?

 

[mcmad]

Isn't Marshall Meadows an existing feed that was due to be upgraded?

Missing are Greenhill/High Bonnybridge (existing) and Tweedbank (applied for I think). Not sure if any other beyond Greenhill were added for the recent electrification of the E&G routes and Stirling.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

This is the information I have/had in a Word document rather than map format

Recent or Existing Scottish Grid Feeders

Currie - new or improved to be built?
Portobello
Innerwick
Harker (just on the UK side)
Ecclefechan
Elvanfoot
Gowkthrapple
Saltcoats
Dalreoch
Port Glasgow
Parkhead

Planned for Decarbonisation Strategy

Thornton - applied for
Invergowrie - now Dundee
Drumlithie
Kintore
Elgin
Beauly
Avielochan
Faskally
Greenloaning
Marshall Meadows (just on the English side) - Static Frequency Converter?

Thanks for this! One day I might get round to putting all that in a map

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Dundee, Perth and Aberdeen are 3 of the seven cities. Politically this project has to be a big score.

 

[TrainViation]

Dundee, Perth and Aberdeen are 3 of the seven cities. Politically this project has to be a big score.

It depends how much the government cares about the cities which aren't in the central belt, unlike Glasgow, Edinburgh and Stirling. They can also be big politically, but just don't have the financials to back the investments. Because no matter how badly they can want it, if there isn't enough money it's not going to happen. (And we're terrible for mis-budgeting..)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Thanks for this! One day I might get round to putting all that in a map

I may be able to help. I have downloaded loads of maps and other information over the years.

 

[hwl]

Thanks for this! One day I might get round to putting all that in a map

I may be able to help. I have downloaded loads of maps and other information over the years.

The proposed stuff from 2022 is subject to certain amount of change so best top take it with pinch of salt until there is a planning application - it certainly couldn't cope with N-1 etc issues hence some of the changes. The are also upgrades of some of the exiting feed locations.
The recent Dundee planning application is not a simple substitute for the previous Invergowie location.

 

[TrainViation]

The proposed stuff from 2022 is subject to certain amount of change so best top take it with pinch of salt until there is a planning application - it certainly couldn't cope with N-1 etc issues hence some of the changes. The are also upgrades of some of the exiting feed locations.
The recent Dundee planning application is not a simple substitute for the previous Invergowie location.

I'd imagine the Invergowrie feeder station, if still happening, would only power the line between Perth and Dundee. Whereas the Stannergate feeder station will power Dundee and north.

 

[fandroid]

While that is likely true, it may still cause delays, especially if the people appeal etc.

Unless Scottish planning law differs significantly from the English, objectors can't appeal a grant of planning consent. It only works the other way around. The only route they have is to take it to court and to prove that the planning authority didn't follow the process correctly.

 

[mcmad]

Unless Scottish planning law differs significantly from the English, objectors can't appeal a grant of planning consent. It only works the other way around. The only route they have is to take it to court and to prove that the planning authority didn't follow the process correctly.

Planning permission hasn't been granted yet, it is out for consultation and as such can attract comments of support or objection.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think all the feeders stations for new 25kV lines have been from the supergrid over the last few decades, so this may be the first off a 132kV line in quite some time.

Thats because firm service capacity (FSC) requested by NR have considerably increased for the new electrification schemes or to reinforce the likes of ECML/WCML to reflect the higher power demands of new trains and increased frequency. Because of the unbalance load presented NR has been forced up the voltage levels by National Grid. One has to presume the FSC at Dundee will be lower so a connection at 132kV is permissible.

 

[gingertom]

Thats because firm service capacity (FSC) requested by NR have considerably increased for the new electrification schemes or to reinforce the likes of ECML/WCML to reflect the higher power demands of new trains and increased frequency. Because of the unbalance load presented NR has been forced up the voltage levels by National Grid. One has to presume the FSC at Dundee will be lower so a connection at 132kV is permissible.

no reason a 21MW connection couldn't be a Static Frequency Convertor and present a balanced load...? Other than cost.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

no reason a 21MW connection couldn't be a Static Frequency Convertor and present a balanced load...? Other than cost.

Yes that crossed my mind too - a SFC

 

[gingertom]

Yes that crossed my mind too - a SFC

does anybody on here know what has been asked for at the other Scottish feeder stations? I can't imagine Tweedbank needing 20MW! It'd barely need 10.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

does anybody on here know what has been asked for at the other Scottish feeder stations? I can't imagine Tweedbank needing 20MW! It'd barely need 10.

Well I know the proposed but on hold Marshall Meadows SFC is strictly just on the English side but it will help Scotland north of the border on the ECML

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

does anybody on here know what has been asked for at the other Scottish feeder stations? I can't imagine Tweedbank needing 20MW! It'd barely need 10.

According to planning documents its 2 x 10 MVA supplies fed from individual 132/25kV transformers. That will be more than sufficient to cover full line electrification should that ever be realised. Mind you there's now no clear timeline of even energising this end of the route.

https://eplanning.scotborders.gov.u...NECTION_-_SUPPLEMENTARY_GI_REPORT-4043105.pdf

 

[Class 170101]

Well I know the proposed but on hold Marshall Meadows SFC is strictly just on the English side but it will help Scotland north of the border on the ECML

I hope someone isn't playing politics with this because of where it is relative to the border and who it may / may not benefit.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Marshall Meadows got cancelled mid construction so it was already subject to the whimsical politics of "no one travels post-covid".

 

[InOban]

You can see the site on Google maps. The foundations are there.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I hope someone isn't playing politics with this because of where it is relative to the border and who it may / may not benefit.

Good lord, I hadn’t thought about it that way.

Marshall Meadows got cancelled mid construction so it was already subject to the whimsical politics of "no one travels post-covid".

You can see the site on Google maps. The foundations are there.

 

[TrainViation]

I'm now wondering how Network Rail will go about with electrifying Dundee station in the beginning. I would imagine that the Fife services would need a terminus charger just in case.
The planned feeder station seems like it would be a good option, even if the wires only stretched to Dundee station and no more anywhere else in the beginning. It would mean Dundee station would be fully wired up from the get-go, and it would allow those services to charge. I think that would be a good option to start rather than a fixed overhead line on the bay platforms.