DRS order 10 'Class 88'

[WatcherZero]

We are talking decent acceleration until around 50mph so should be perfectly capable of most unelectrified freight chords.

 

[Photohunter71]

The only way to prove or disprove theories is for someone to take on a couple of UK Traxx as a benchmark.

 

[Beveridges]

The Class 20 can be used as a benchmark for how the Class 88 will probably accelerate when its running on diesel.

 

[455driver]

At just 15mph though which is of no use to anyone outside depots

If the train is already doing 60mph what is the problem just shut off power, start the diseasel, drop the pan and carry on at 59mph, oops silly me this 2013 isnt it not 1970.

Now its stop the train, contact fleet control for permission, contact the box to let them know why the line is blocked, ask the on board computer if it would be so kind as to allow you the use of the diesel engine, trip 15 circuit breakers in the right order at 3.2 second intervals, reinstate 10 others at 5.4 second intervals, press the start button (note this isnt actually connected in any way with the starter motor but tells the computer you are ready to start the diesel engine), the computer will then decide whether it wants to start the diesel engine, once the engine is started because it is cold it is limited (by the computer) to 50% power until its at 80*C so it takes the loco an absolute age to get the 2500 ton train on the move from the standing start that it neednt have had to make in the first place if the bloody thing had been designed properly in the first place.

Once the train is in the siding the driver then has to fill out a 5 page report in triplicate as to why the train sat on the mainline for 10 minutes causing delays to 4 class 1s and 3 class 2s and has accrued over 200 minutes in delay minutes from trains as far North as Inverness despite the delay happening at Southampton.

Dont you love the 'modern' railway!
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Not sure why I quoted you now Bevs, I have forgotten after writing all that.

Oh thats it, I think the point he was making is that low installed horsepower is no deficit on pulling heavy loads.

 

[captainbigun]

The only way to prove or disprove theories is for someone to take on a couple of UK Traxx as a benchmark.

UK TRAXX would be a different beast, it would have (at least) 25% more power than 88.

 

[Photohunter71]

25% more power or not, it would give an idea of how the "Extra Mile" diesel would perform.

 

[DDB]

The future is clearly going to be electric powered freight. The government is encouraging more and more electrification and will want the freight companies to use electric locomotives as they are low carbon because the electricity is nuclear generated http://www.edfenergy.com/media-centre/press-news/Ten-year-deal-powers-Britains-biggest-rail-electrification-programme-in-a-generation.shtml.

I've read that the freight companies have been clear that they won't do so until the whole route is electrified as they don't want to have to switch locomotives mid route. This will presumably be a rolling program as more and more main lines are electrified over the next ten years. I believe there are unused electric locos in storage so there will not be a rush for new ones soon.

Even then this still leaves the problems of the depots as top loading wagons and cranes won't mix well with overhead power lines. Presumably in big container ports with tens of trains arriving and leaving each day it would be economic to use a dedicated diesel shunter. For smaller yards a "last mile" diesel seems the best solution.

This seems a little bit more powerful than that so maybe it is more of a "last five miles" that can cope with a reasonably long branch off the main line. I also wonder if the reason that DRS have jumped first (which seems a bit early yet) is that they have the nuclear flask traffic monopoly. I assume flask trains are light enough to use these class 88 on in pure diesel mode at full speed while waiting for the electric market to grow. This would allow them to retire some of their older locomotives which although popular with enthusiasts must become increasing difficult to maintain as they get older and older and be in prime potion to leap in as soon as each newly electrified route opens up?

DDB

 

[route:oxford]

This loco is going to generate years and years of bickering on the forums.

There are bound to be dozens of myths concerning "banned routes" under diesel power. Maximum speeds when hauling certain stock and, of course, change of power whilst moving.

 

[captainbigun]

25% more power or not, it would give an idea of how the "Extra Mile" diesel would perform.

UK TRAXX was pure AC so I am completely lost as to what point you are trying to make.

 

[Photohunter71]

The last mile diesel was the point I was trying to make,but hey ho,moving on.

I strongly doubt there will be the end of diesel at all until 1) diesel production stops completely or 2) Decent hydrogen fuel cell powered systems come in to replace diesels,
Let's say for instance,there are power cuts/blackouts and your whole rail system is purely electric,you're stuffed! There will be a lot of electric traction,but the way the power companies are going,I wouldn't bank on electric traction!

 

[Peter Sarf]

The last mile diesel was the point I was trying to make,but hey ho,moving on.

I strongly doubt there will be the end of diesel at all until 1) diesel production stops completely or 2) Decent hydrogen fuel cell powered systems come in to replace diesels,
Let's say for instance,there are power cuts/blackouts and your whole rail system is purely electric,you're stuffed! There will be a lot of electric traction,but the way the power companies are going,I wouldn't bank on electric traction!

Must admit you've lost me on the last mile diesel bit if the Traxx is straight electric. We need a similar powered diesel loco to compare with though I suppose the 88 is going to have more weight and more axles so would slip about less.

I am pretty sure that, if the British public get power cuts, the railways will still be guaranteed a supply. I seem to recall the railways get their power straight from the national grid - not via the lower voltage switched supplies to towns/suburbs.

Now where is my plastic ladder and nylon pole with a wire and hook ?. Oops I am in third rail land :roll:. Have to keep warm by hugging the juice rail .

 

[sprinterguy]

UK TRAXX was pure AC so I am completely lost as to what point you are trying to make.

When was that decided? The Railway Gazette reported that the TRAXX UK would come fitted with a 180kW "last mile" diesel engine:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...view/traxx-uk-aimed-at-two-uk-franchises.html
The P200 AC UK would be able to run at 200 km/h and have a maximum power rating of 5 600 kW; maximum starting tractive effort would be 300 kN. Its ‘last mile’ diesel engine meeting Stage IIIB emissions regulations would deliver 180 kW at the wheel. The locomotive would weigh 82 tonnes and be 18·6 m long, the 2 743 mm width fitting within the UK loading gauge.

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Must admit you've lost me on the last mile diesel bit if the Traxx is straight electric. We need a similar powered diesel loco to compare with though I suppose the 88 is going to have more weight and more axles so would slip about less.

Both the TRAXX UK and the Vossloh class 88 are four axle, Bo-Bo designs.

Has it actually been announced how much the class 88 will weigh? The diesel-electric class 68 will weigh 85 tonnes, but I haven't seen a quoted figure for the class 88 electric variant. For comparison the TRAXX UK electric loco would weigh in at 82 tonnes.

 

[broadgage]

I would expect that these locomotives (or something similar in principle but from a different supplier) will use on engineering trains.
On an increasingly electric railway it would make sense to use electric power for delivering materials over appreciable distances. Within a worksite though the power is often isolated for safe working.

For this reason the class 73s remain popular in DC areas, the new locos would seem suited for similar trains in AC electric areas.

 

[Photohunter71]

Thankyou Sprinterguy,obviously some of us weren't reading the technical data of the UK Traxx variant too carefully!:roll: It would be interesting to compare the Vossloh class 88's with a UK variant of Traxx and see just how much this extra mile diesel performs.

Now,as for the electricity debate ,yes and no,if the closure of power stations at the rate of knotts keeps going ahead,you can imbalance the grid causing a complete shutdown if you can't get other stations online to keep a certain Hz stability,that will affect everything that runs of the NG including traction!

 

[captainbigun]

When was that decided? The Railway Gazette reported that the TRAXX UK would come fitted with a 180kW "last mile" diesel engine:

Of course, media are always spot on. Bombardier could offer all sorts, but the detail of what was actually being looked at appears to have been overlooked here.

Which ROSCOs offering are you referring to? The only cast iron ones which I am aware of were pure AC to replace Class 90 and Class 91. Though not the same ROSCO.
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Thankyou Sprinterguy,obviously some of us weren't reading the technical data of the UK Traxx variant too carefully!:roll: It would be interesting to compare the Vossloh class 88's with a UK variant of Traxx and see just how much this extra mile diesel performs.

Now,as for the electricity debate ,yes and no,if the closure of power stations at the rate of knotts keeps going ahead,you can imbalance the grid causing a complete shutdown if you can't get other stations online to keep a certain Hz stability,that will affect everything that runs of the NG including traction!

It's still an apples and pears comparison. 88 is a bi-mode version of a pure diesel design, rated accordingly, the other is a bi-mode of a pure AC design, also rated accordingly. 88 has a much bigger engine than the quoted TRAXX arrangement and is geared for 100. AC TRAXX would've been 110 or 125.

As for frequency stability, matters less in a modern loco as the supply is rectified and then inverted in the final drive. Only the transformer and switch gear to worry about, and that would have some tolerance anyway.

Also consider, no electricity is likely to mean no diesel...what do you need in order to pump diesel? If there's a blackout I am pretty sure the last thing of concern will be whether you can find a diesel loco or not.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Now,as for the electricity debate ,yes and no,if the closure of power stations at the rate of knotts keeps going ahead,you can imbalance the grid causing a complete shutdown if you can't get other stations online to keep a certain Hz stability,that will affect everything that runs of the NG including traction!

I think that is the point of power cuts - to reduce demand to a level that means the remaining power stations can maintain the correct frequency (Hz) and voltage. The grid can choose to still supply all the railways traction needs until the last power station goes out !. Of course the station lights, tannoy and other "safety critical equipment" might go down but then they never were powered by a diesel or steam engine.

The only time a grid collapses is when something sudden happens. Examples are when a transmission failure occurs which means that there are power stations producing more power than can be passed to the demand. The grid then collapses in a panic as power stations have to come off line suddenly.

On the other hand if demand is too high its usually gradual enough to alllow quick start power stations to come on stream. Examples are diesel power and the pump storage scheme in North Wales (Trawsfynnedd might be its name). Usually the rises in demand are predictable enough - there are experts scouring the TV schedules and monitoring the popular TV programs. Enough people turn the kettle on at the end of a popular program to mean some power station(s) are started up in advance so they are ready to come on stream. Of course if the England vs France game goes into extra time some poor sole has to be watching the game to get an idea when the peak is coming - possibly a bad example as I feel sure most football supporters drink beer/lager NOT tea but I hope you get the idea.

 

[sprinterguy]

Of course, media are always spot on. Bombardier could offer all sorts, but the detail of what was actually being looked at appears to have been overlooked here.

Which ROSCOs offering are you referring to? The only cast iron ones which I am aware of were pure AC to replace Class 90 and Class 91. Though not the same ROSCO.

I typically expect the railway press to be fairly on the ball, even if the mocked up image in my previous linked article, of a TRAXX loco dragging bogie-less mark 3 carriages along the ground(!), doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence (Perhaps they are trying to demonstrate the locos’ superior pulling power? )!

I wasn’t aware of any ROSCO specific proposals for the TRAXX UK, only that Bombardier are offering the loco with the intention of replacing class 90s on the Great Eastern and 91s on the East Coast.

Is it not a UK compatible version of this design that is being offered?
http://www.bombardier.com/en/media-...x-ac-last-mile-locomotive-at-transport-l.html

 

[Photohunter71]

The ROSCOs in question were Greater Anglia and Eversholt rail.
Just google image UK Traxx.

 

[sprinterguy]

The ROSCOs in question were Greater Anglia and Eversholt rail.

Ah, thanks for that. The Eversholt proposal to replace the 91s still reportedly included a "last mile" diesel engine in January this year, according to this article:
http://www.therailengineer.com/2013/01/21/a-new-lease-of-life/

Interesting to note that the diesel engine would be capable of powering the train at 30mph and would have a 400 litre fuel tank.

 

[Photohunter71]

Thanks Sprinterguy! Some great information in that piece! I hope the Traxx UK locomotive does go ahead,as I'm a strong advocate of diverse traction,the samey 66's and withdrawal of other traction put the tin lid on the hobby for me personally.I am coming back to it with the 70's/68's/88's on the way and here's hoping Traxx UK too! I'd still love to see ScotRail use some Traxx UK or class 88's and a few 68's for passenger stock!
30mph is more than enough to use in sidings!

 

[Peter Sarf]

30mph is more than enough to use in sidings!

There must be a few freight only branches that are no faster than 30mph anyway - or it would not hurt if they were ?. I also started thinking of the Felixtowe branch but then perhaps capacity already dictates a higher speed there ?.

 

[WatcherZero]

South Africa has just placed a large order for 50 Vossloh Euro Duals and 20 Euro 4000's.

http://www.vossloh-espana.com/media/downloads/pdfs/flyer/EURO_DUAL-_EN_July_2012.pdf

 

[Photohunter71]

Interesting! I'll bet the 10 class 88's will no doubt be in amongst that order!

 

[HSTEd]

The South African ones will be true electrodiesels.

Be interesting to see if they are 25kV or 50kV units....

 

[captainbigun]

The ROSCOs in question were Greater Anglia and Eversholt rail.
Just google image UK Traxx.

GA was Porterbrook and Beacon JV. Porterbrook with the Mk3s and Beacon with the locos.

Eversholt was EC.

 

[Andyjs247]

No More 47s to Great Yarmouth then.... :cry:

A regular through service to Great Yarmouth would be nice; not just on summer Saturdays. Would an 88 + Chilternised mk3 set (with DVT genny for ETH power) cope on a 40 mile round trip? Perhaps you could get rid of Voyagers on Euston - Chester too! I guess it would boil down to how many round trips you could do in a day off the juice.

 

[krus_aragon]

Examples are diesel power and the pump storage scheme in North Wales (Trawsfynnedd might be its name).

You're thinking of Dinorwig, near Llanberis. Trawsfynydd was the nuclear power station that closed in the 90s.

Incidentally, the local council has just approved a plan to build another pump-storage power station at Glyn Rhonwy, on the other side of Llanberis.
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Of course if the England vs France game goes into extra time some poor sole has to be watching the game to get an idea when the peak is coming - possibly a bad example as I feel sure most football supporters drink beer/lager NOT tea but I hope you get the idea.

It used to be said that the peak usage at half-time during a televised football match was because of all the kettles in the country being turned on at the same time...

 

[Beveridges]

57s were also very regulars on Freightliner Intermodal to begin with. A trainspotting session at Stafford could see up to 8 of them in one day in the late 90s / early 00s. It used to be great.

They are used today on all sorts of freight by Direct Rail Services from nuclear flasks to Intermodals.