DRS order 10 'Class 88'

[edwin_m]

Not a problem on the ECML when the NOL sets were eventually authorised to run at 125mph on significant stretches.

And allegedly were the reason for many of the subsequent OLE failures.

 

[D365]

And allegedly were the reason for many of the subsequent OLE failures.

373s are still blamed for many of the failures today

 

[route:oxford]

Theres a powergraph of the 88's in UK Railways mag, not unsurprisingly the 4mw under the wires performs a lot better than the 700kw diesel only which really trails off after around 50mph.

Answers one question I had on how much fuel capacity would be lost to electrical equipment as they are using the same bodyshell as the 68's, states they will have 2,500 litre tanks which compares with 4,000 for the standard Eurolight and 5,000 for the UK specific Class 68.

How far would you expect one to be able to travel on 2500 litres?

 

[HSTEd]

That is rather more than the rated fuel capacity of a Class 20, given its generally comparable weight (certainly with a train attached) and power rating I would expect significantly greater range thanks to improvements in diesel engine efficiency.

 

[Photohunter71]

I eat my words about a Vossloh electric,although it's a bi-mode locomotive.It would be interesting to see how this works out as they are going through the proving stage with a prototype.It may be that the look of the proposed 88 will change from the expected similarities or shared features of a 68.Let's hope other operators follow suit and order new types. I would like to see the G2000BB over here but as a Co-Co variant,any ROSCO's or Freight operators willing to go for that?

 

[HSTEd]

A Co-Co type locomotive on the same chassis concept easily manage Type 3 or even Type 4 power I would imagine.

 

[Beveridges]

Yes, it the loco was a bit bigger it could have had an engine in the 1500-2000hp range, a much more useful engine, surprised they stuck to a bo-bo and a type 1 diesel engine.

 

[Monty]

I imagine it was done that way to save money in development costs by reusing as much of the Class 68 as possible. While the term 'bi-mode or dual mode' is being thrown about a bit in this thread and in the press, I would bet that it was Vossloh's intention was that the engine be used for shunting in un-electrified yards and to rescue itself in the result of an outage or pantograph failed etc rather being used for nuclear flask traffic or as a Type 1 replacement when away from the juice.

 

[route:oxford]

I imagine it was done that way to save money in development costs by reusing as much of the Class 68 as possible. While the term 'bi-mode or dual mode' is being thrown about a bit in this thread and in the press, I would bet that it was Vossloh's intention was that the engine be used for shunting in un-electrified yards and to rescue itself in the result of an outage or pantograph failed etc rather being used for nuclear flask traffic or as a Type 1 replacement when away from the juice.

I'm not so sure. Most manufacturers' primary intention is to develop a product that will be attractive to a broad market.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, it the loco was a bit bigger it could have had an engine in the 1500-2000hp range, a much more useful engine, surprised they stuck to a bo-bo and a type 1 diesel engine.

With the 'compact' 900hp engine as planned for the IEP...

And a loco similar to the design of the 37...

Could a diesel engine fit in each of the 'noses' with the electrics in the centre?

 

[Monty]

I'm not so sure. Most manufacturers' primary intention is to develop a product that will be attractive to a broad market.

I see what your saying but Vossloh themselves seem to market the dual mode locos for shunting in yards (the so called 'last mile') rather than short trip workings or light loads over longer distances. Not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying its not what the manufacturer's had in mind when they came up with the concept.

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont think thats what they are saying monty, they are refering to running on electrified lines then diverting through unelectified freight lines to avoid the congested parts of the network without having to be a wholly diesel.

That Euro 4000 you point out for example has an electric capacity of 5MW and Diesel capacity of 900kW upto 2.8MW depending on engine choice and choice of 2,500l or 5,000l. The Eurolight is designed for lower axle weight and higher route availability but the same principle.

The locomotive runs on both electrified and non-electrified lines. As a result, optimum use can be made of less busy lines and destinations can be reached more quickly.

 

[HSTEd]

The ideal electrodiesel would have the diesel performance of a Class 66 and superior electric performance.

I doubt we are likely to see such a thing soon in Britain.

 

[Freightmaster]

The ideal electrodiesel would have the diesel performance of a Class 66 and superior electric performance.

I doubt we are likely to see such a thing soon in Britain.

I do believe that you've just summed up the contents of the past five pages of this thread
in two sentences!

MARK

 

[Photohunter71]

With the talk of this dual mode/ bi-mode call it what you will,I'm surprised they didn't go for Traxx!

 

[Loki]

With the talk of this dual mode/ bi-mode call it what you will,I'm surprised they didn't go for Traxx!

Could it be that DRS has been working with Vossloh before TraxxUK was announced?

 

[D7666]

I imagine it was done that way to save money in development costs by reusing as much of the Class 68 as possible. While the term 'bi-mode or dual mode' is being thrown about a bit in this thread and in the press, I would bet that it was Vossloh's intention was that the engine be used for shunting in un-electrified yards and to rescue itself in the result of an outage or pantograph failed etc rather being used for nuclear flask traffic or as a Type 1 replacement when away from the juice.

I think it might be a little clearer if people looked at both divisions of Vossloh.

88s and 68s are from Vossloh's Spain plant, which they acquired from Alsthom, its the same place that built GB 67s.

In my P5 Todays Railways consultant role, I too understood Vossloh's products from that plant was originally intended as "last mile" or emergency mode rather than full blown EDLs.

But it is also true the current range of Caterpillar (and MTU and Cummins) diesels are so compact you could easily shoe horn in a larger power unit, which is what the 88 is.

For actual Vossloh full electro diesels the development line seems to be with the German plant, which was originally MaK then through a series of other owners (Krupp, Siemens) and where Eurotunnel 0000s and the ex-Norway Teesside steelworks shunters were built.

Now this plant has not yet built any EDLs, their "5th generation" machines they have actually built are their G12/G16 d-h and DE12/DE16 d-e. But at the last Innotrans they had models and concepts designs of big EDLs - the DM30.

They are pretty ugly concepts
http://www.railcolor.net/index.php?nav=1409453&lang=1#.UkFgWL0ngb0

But, I'll add this, I understood Vossloh (Germany) were to be full blown EDL and Vossloh (Spain) last mile, everything I read was in either German or Spanish, and a lot of it through German web forums. While I understand german well enough, web forums are not the most reliable, and translating informal text can go wrong.

However, back to the opening comment, I agree I do not think the original Vossloh Spain intent was any more than last mile loco, but now maybe they have seen the market for one with a bigger diesel, e.g. 88.

Digressing, if you want a big EDL, try these
http://www.railcolor.net/index.php?nav=1405722

which if you trust wikipiffle data
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALP-45DP

approach the "performance of a 66 on diesel" and "more on electric" someone else posted upthread.

A little on the big side for GB loading gauge though

--
Nick

 

[HSTEd]

I have hope that the ABB work on medium frequency transformer packs will reduce the size of the electric component of the system to permit a full power electrodiesel in the British loading gauge.

If they do manage it I believe the days of diesel freight under the wires would be numbered.

 

[Photohunter71]

Could it be that DRS has been working with Vossloh before TraxxUK was announced?

That is a possibility,but if it were my business,I'd try and get the already proven technology that Bombardier were producing and get a UK variant. I still think UK freight companies should ask Vossloh for a Co-Co variant of their G2000BB and Voith for a UK version of their Maxima to replace Cl 60's and as a standby for the 70's if ever they get the boot due to their unreliability.

 

[captainbigun]

I have hope that the ABB work on medium frequency transformer packs will reduce the size of the electric component of the system to permit a full power electrodiesel in the British loading gauge.

If they do manage it I believe the days of diesel freight under the wires would be numbered.

Opinion in the industry is that this is unlikely, loading gauge too constrained, and don't forget the weight of the fuel.

88 will move a reasonable load a short distance at slow speed, it's last mile nothing more.

 

[HSTEd]

Opinion in the industry is that this is unlikely, loading gauge too constrained, and don't forget the weight of the fuel.

Well you can fit a 3000hp diesel locomotive into ninety tonnes, and if the MF transformer work comes through and cuts the weight (and volume) of the transformer by half or even more then it may become practical to have a ~3300hp diesel power CoCo electrodiesel in the British loading gauge.

88 will move a reasonable load a short distance at slow speed, it's last mile nothing more.

Yes, but I think they are just the beginning.

 

[captainbigun]

Time will tell.

Personally I cannot see the demand short to medium term, there would have to be significant volume to make it UK viable.

Long term diesel is dead anyway.

 

[Loki]

Opinion in the industry is that this is unlikely, loading gauge too constrained, and don't forget the weight of the fuel.

This should be solvable by an artic.
Italians seem to have some similar concepts too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_EW_class_locomotive

 

[Photohunter71]

Long term diesel is dead? No chance! It's here until there is the technology to put hydrogen fuel cell systems into locomotives.

 

[broadgage]

Time will tell.

Personally I cannot see the demand short to medium term, there would have to be significant volume to make it UK viable.

Long term diesel is dead anyway.

Not completly IMHO.
The future is electric for all or almost all busy, fast, or long distance routes.
Electrifying docksides, container ports, and power station sidings is almost impossible due to the presence of overhead cranes and other equipment.
An alternative power source is therefore needed in such places, and in the short or medium term, diesel power looks the most likely.
Battery power, or a steam shunter are other possibilities.

Limited diesel power would permit of through passenger or freight services to non electrified branches, private railways serving industry, or heritage lines.
Speeds and distances are usually limited in such situations.

 

[Photohunter71]

Hope the 88's will have a few more grilles on the bodysides.

 

[sprinterguy]

If we get many more electro-loco types, could we see Classes 81, 83-85 and 89 re-used, with some lump category or another (82, alongside the lone loco of that type and the DVTs?) for ACLG.

If needs be, there already is a lump category issued by the Rolling Stock Library for preserved electric locomotives, which sees them grouped under the 89500 series on TOPS: Even the class 89 has had a number in this series allocated in the past; 89501: http://www.rcts.org.uk/about/news/89xxx.htm

 

[Photohunter71]

Would other companies show an interest in the 88's or will some opt for Traxx,Prima 2 and Vectron? I ask this question as there seems to be the rush to get shot of 86's/87's and 92's to overseas users therefore depleting our electric traction availability.

 

[edwin_m]

I guess Freightliner might dip a toe if the new traction is seen to be reliable. But it would probably be on the basis that each 88 replaced a pair of 86s, and therefore only if it is capable of doing that particularly in respect of adhesion on the northern WCML. Felixstowe-Nuneaton and more use of the GN/GE Joint line means that if anything the scope for electric freight haulage has reduced in recent years.

 

[DXMachina]

88 will move a reasonable load a short distance at slow speed, it's last mile nothing more.

A 60 year old, 350 horsepower shunter can move a full trainload at slow speed over medium distances. I suspect the Cl.88 with 3 times the power available will do a bit better than that.

 

[Beveridges]

A 60 year old, 350 horsepower shunter can move a full trainload at slow speed over medium distances

At just 15mph though which is of no use to anyone outside depots