Driving train while on a mobile - is this allowed?

[A-driver]

Whilst there are far to many rules with TOCs about passing in cabs/people in cabs etc it seems this thread is fast descending into dribble.

Someone in the cab talking to the driver is NOT a SPAD waiting to happen anymore than a driver getting bored, loosing concentration on their own.

I am a professional at what I do and I know when to concentrate and ignore someone in my cab and when I can have a chat. I regularly have mates in the cab when they are passing round-why not? They to are professionals and know when I need to concentrate etc. They are trusted by my employer to drive the trains but not to sit next to me whilst I drive?!

How many people on here drive a car? And how many of those have ever had a passenger in that car and talked to them?

You can not say things like this are causing incidents. So what if a guard goes to talk to a driver whilst the train is moving? If the driver left on a yellow or something then it's up to them to remember that and if needed tell the guard to wait outside a minute.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Exactly. At some point you have got to trust the driver, whether you like it or not!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

...and a couple of sackings also waiting to happen, particularly if the afore mentioned SPAD occurs

Very much so, northern are very strict about it

 

[Smudger105e]

Seems there is a world of differences between passenger and freight!

I agree with this observation, but why? Is there a greater risk if there are passengers sitting behind the driver, rather than coal?

I do understand the need for control of mobiles when operating rail vehicles, but in my car I can use my phone hands free, have a sat nav on, have the radio on and chat to my wife and control the kids in the back seat. And I'm sure that these distractions are far more important in a car, where I have to aim it, as well as monitoring the plethora of hazards.

How is it that I cannot have these distractions when driving a locomotive at 5 mph in the yard, but it is fine for me to have them driving my car at up to 70 mph?

 

[CarterUSM]

Whilst there are far to many rules with TOCs about passing in cabs/people in cabs etc it seems this thread is fast descending into dribble.

Someone in the cab talking to the driver is NOT a SPAD waiting to happen anymore than a driver getting bored, loosing concentration on their own.

I am a professional at what I do and I know when to concentrate and ignore someone in my cab and when I can have a chat. I regularly have mates in the cab when they are passing round-why not? They to are professionals and know when I need to concentrate etc. They are trusted by my employer to drive the trains but not to sit next to me whilst I drive?!

How many people on here drive a car? And how many of those have ever had a passenger in that car and talked to them?

You can not say things like this are causing incidents. So what if a guard goes to talk to a driver whilst the train is moving? If the driver left on a yellow or something then it's up to them to remember that and if needed tell the guard to wait outside a minute.

I agree also. It happened for years and years, with guards and second men up front. I've spent many a time up front, in the past, with my driver, relieving his boredom. Having said that I can see the company's view also , they see it as a risk and want to minimise it outwith agreed rules protocols. I route learned in the front too , this is no longer permitted either for guards.

 

[newbie babs]

A-driver

Big difference between a passenger in a car and passengers on a train.

How many passengers who don`t work for the railway would expect a driver to be on his/her own and not have others in side the cab.

 

[notadriver]

What a train driver does in the cab, whether he/she has anyone in there is none of the passengers business. That's why you can't see into the cab from within the train unlike say in a car or bus.

 

[O L Leigh]

Whilst there are far to many rules with TOCs about passing in cabs/people in cabs etc it seems this thread is fast descending into dribble.

Someone in the cab talking to the driver is NOT a SPAD waiting to happen anymore than a driver getting bored, loosing concentration on their own.

You'd think, but it was a major causal factor in a SPAD on my patch not so many years ago.

Someone else said it a while ago; the railways are rightly risk averse and will try to do whatever is necessary to ensure safety. Rightly or wrongly, the use of mobile phones and other devices together with unauthorised cab visitors are prohibited in the cab of a train. No matter how professional we are, anything that takes our eyes off the road or impair our concentration increases our risk of having an incident, whether it be a SPAD a failure to call or whatever. I know I've come close to missing stops a couple of times because my concentration wandered for a moment (and not due to unauthorised activities in the cab either).

Where the "dribble" is setting in is through the constant comparisons with the legally permitted distractions that road users can be subjected to. Yes you can use a hands-free or satnav and argue with the kids or the missus as much as you like, because these are all perfectly safe activities that have never been implicated in any road accidents whatsoever.

Unfortunately that is a nonsense, as studies have shown that a phone conversation on a hands-free is just as distracting as it is on a handheld phone. The only difference is that a hands-free means you haven't got one hand tied up holding the damn thing to your ear. Likewise the slavish attention to satnav has resulted in accidents.

O L Leigh

 

[Grantham]

Seems there is a world of differences between passenger and freight!

There certainly seems to be an incredible culture of fear amongst the passenger drivers! Is the running there really so intense that any distraction is a SPAD or a sacking just waiting to happen? OMGzor...a driver or guard opened my door while I was touching the brakes...what will happen to me now? *wails* :roll:

Perhaps it would be best if I stay away from the serious forums, else I'll get a complex about uncontrollably passing signals at stop.

M

 

[O L Leigh]

Crow if you like, but that is the situation that we find ourselves in.

I wonder if the driver of the Metrolink service at Chatsworth CA thought he was in control of the situation and that it was OK to use his mobile while in control of his train.

Rightly or wrongly we have to drive each trip as if we're going to be downloaded and scrutinised because we just don't know what might happen along the way. Those of us who drive professionally don't need to worry about that because we always demand the highest levels of performance from ourselves no matter what the manangers think, but we are all aware that anything can happen without warning and then we shall be under the closest scrutiny possible. It's not just medscreening and all the expected investigations, but potentially having our personal and work mobile phone records scrutinised for unauthorised use should there be any suggestion of misuse.

I'm not saying that having a mobile phone out or hosting an unauthorised cab visitor is an incident waiting to happen, but if you allow these things and then go on to have an incident the outcome for you will be worse because of the climate of risk management we operate in.

But then is that really so bad...? If your employer has a policy on matters such as mobile phone use, is it really so arduous to follow it...? We know what the penalties could be for ignoring them, so we try to follow them. Yes we can argue over the reasonableness of these policies and the professionalism of drivers, but the policy exists whether it is justified or not and it needs to because there will always be some who consider they don't pose any risk and will flout them as a consequence.

But, as I hinted above, none of us know what will happen on each trip and we all believe we are above making a complete horlicks of it, right up to the point when we do. Given that we are in control of many hundreds of tons of metal travelling at high speed containing many hundreds of people, is it such a wrong thing to be looking out the window and focussed on the job rather than texting some floozy...?

O L Leigh

 

[BestWestern]

There certainly seems to be an incredible culture of fear amongst the passenger drivers! Is the running there really so intense that any distraction is a SPAD or a sacking just waiting to happen? OMGzor...a driver or guard opened my door while I was touching the brakes...what will happen to me now? *wails* :roll:

Perhaps it would be best if I stay away from the serious forums, else I'll get a complex about uncontrollably passing signals at stop.

M

There is not so much a 'culture of fear' as simply an understanding of the need to adhere to the rules laid down by a TOC and employer.

A crew at our TOC were recently relieved of their duties midway through a turn as an off-duty competence manager travelling on board the service witnessed the Guard enter the Driving cab and remain there for a few minutes. The Driver had requested the Guard bring him a drink and fetch from his bag some medication, the Guard had done so, and both explained the situation in full. Both were disciplined and received written warnings, their reasoning not having been accepted as an excuse for a breach of rules and regs.

We may have various different employers, but I would always anybody to take any rules regarding the driving cabs seriously, assuming one's job is suitably valued.

 

[Grantham]

Crow if you like, but that is the situation that we find ourselves in.

I wonder if the driver of the Metrolink service at Chatsworth CA thought he was in control of the situation and that it was OK to use his mobile while in control of his train.

Rightly or wrongly we have to drive each trip as if we're going to be downloaded and scrutinised because we just don't know what might happen along the way. Those of us who drive professionally don't need to worry about that because we always demand the highest levels of performance from ourselves no matter what the manangers think, but we are all aware that anything can happen without warning and then we shall be under the closest scrutiny possible. It's not just medscreening and all the expected investigations, but potentially having our personal and work mobile phone records scrutinised for unauthorised use should there be any suggestion of misuse.

I'm not saying that having a mobile phone out or hosting an unauthorised cab visitor is an incident waiting to happen, but if you allow these things and then go on to have an incident the outcome for you will be worse because of the climate of risk management we operate in.

But then is that really so bad...? If your employer has a policy on matters such as mobile phone use, is it really so arduous to follow it...? We know what the penalties could be for ignoring them, so we try to follow them. Yes we can argue over the reasonableness of these policies and the professionalism of drivers, but the policy exists whether it is justified or not and it needs to because there will always be some who consider they don't pose any risk and will flout them as a consequence.

But, as I hinted above, none of us know what will happen on each trip and we all believe we are above making a complete horlicks of it, right up to the point when we do. Given that we are in control of many hundreds of tons of metal travelling at high speed containing many hundreds of people, is it such a wrong thing to be looking out the window and focussed on the job rather than texting some floozy...?

O L Leigh

I'm not scoffing at you doing your job right, I'm scoffing at the culture of fear. I do my job right, and I'm proud of it.



But I do use the camera in the phone for personal reasons, and if I had a floozy to text to when stowed away, I might! Until the Mrs found out...

M

 

[BestWestern]

There certainly seems to be an incredible culture of fear amongst the passenger drivers! Is the running there really so intense that any distraction is a SPAD or a sacking just waiting to happen? OMGzor...a driver or guard opened my door while I was touching the brakes...what will happen to me now? *wails* :roll:

Perhaps it would be best if I stay away from the serious forums, else I'll get a complex about uncontrollably passing signals at stop.

M

[Deleted]

 

[Grantham]

You deleted yours, I thought I'd better do likewise.

Mate, that truly sounds like a culture of fear. What a funny way to treat your staff!

M

 

[BestWestern]

Mate, that truly sounds like a culture of fear. What a funny way to treat your staff!

M

Deleted a double post, nowt sinister going on! I wouldn't call it a culture of fear, since everybody knows the situation and anybody who chooses to ignore it does so at their own risk, knowing the potential outcome. As others have said, if you do the job properly and don't flout the rules, then there's nothing to be feared really!

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm not scoffing at you doing your job right, I'm scoffing at the culture of fear. I do my job right, and I'm proud of it.

As do I.

I don't exist in a culture of fear because I know where the lines are drawn and I do whatever I can to stay inside of them. It is the pride I take in my work that keeps me in that position. Those who exist in fear only do so because they have something to fear.

That said, I do believe you're overstating things slightly. We may also be guilty of the same charge, but I'm sure that there aren't many UK railwaymen who can say that they know of no-one who has had an incident involving some form of unauthorised cab activity, be it an unauthorised cab visitor or the use of an electronic device (whether or not it is known to management).

Things may be different where you are with regard to the use of electronic devices in the cab, but here in the UK such matters are looked on very seriously indeed. Anyone taking photos from or in the cab while in charge of a train would be well advised NOT to publish them.

O L Leigh

 

[TDK]

Interesting point you made about drivers travelling pass : Which TOCs have banned this ?

Some companies have a RR in a cab on the drivers diagrams - what is the difference? Double standards if you ask me

 

[Minilad]

Some companies have a RR in a cab on the drivers diagrams - what is the difference? Double standards if you ask me

Indeed. Its OK to have someone in the cab on Road Learning / Refreshing, Traction Training, passing out, assessments.

Just playing devils advocate for a minute but who is to say having someone in the cab wouldn't so much cause incidents but could actually prevent them. An extra pair of eyes. For example. We had a SPaD a couple of years ago. I won't mention where or when. But basically the driver had approached the signal held at red by the book. Braking at the double yellow, 50 over the signal yellow then 20 over the magnet for the red. Then took the brake off and let the train coast and they went by. To this day they cannot explain what happened or why they just didn't put the brakes back on. Now if they had someone in the cab with them I am pretty sure they would have alerted the driver to the red and the SPaD wouldn't have occurred. Maybe a lot more incidents could have been prevented too. Who knows. Its not as black and white as some are trying to make out IMHO

 

[notadriver]

Well in the old days you had second men right ? I think having two drivers at the front is okay but I'm not sure on the issue of having non driving grades in leading cabs. I know guards used to route learn from the front. Why don't they now?

 

[GB]

Where I am we are actually encouraged to have cab rides.

I'm not aware of any incident in recent times where having a second person up front has resulted in a spad.

 

[O L Leigh]

I am, as I said earlier in the thread. In fact, it was a major causal factor.

O L Leigh

 

[150222]

Wasn't there an incident in the south east (East Grinstead line?) in the 1980's where two trains collided head on due to the guard unlawfully driving one of them?

 

[driver9000]

I'm not aware of any incident in recent times where having a second person up front has resulted in a spad.

I can think of 2 off the top of my head.

 

[OxtedL]

Wasn't there an incident in the south east (East Grinstead line?) in the 1980's where two trains collided head on due to the guard unlawfully driving one of them?

Cowden, on the Uckfield line. It was only suspected, the relevant parties were killed in the crash.

Not particularly useful example though, things have moved on a bit since then.

 

[BestWestern]

There was, I understand, a relatively recent SPAD down west somewhere on the FGW network, in which I believe the Guard was thought to have been up front. But there is a justified argument that whilst a Guard is likely to be a distraction, a fellow Driver - or at least a decent conscientious one - should know when to chat and when to be quiet, or say something useful. I recall a Driver at our place mentioning that when travelling in the front cab he would always gently point out cautionary signal aspects to his colleague who was Driving, but then I suppose for every Driver who would have the presence of mind to do that there is likely to be another who wouldn't.

 

[TDK]

There was, I understand, a relatively recent SPAD down west somewhere on the FGW network, in which I believe the Guard was thought to have been up front. But there is a justified argument that whilst a Guard is likely to be a distraction, a fellow Driver - or at least a decent conscientious one - should know when to chat and when to be quiet, or say something useful. I recall a Driver at our place mentioning that when travelling in the front cab he would always gently point out cautionary signal aspects to his colleague who was Driving, but then I suppose for every Driver who would have the presence of mind to do that there is likely to be another who wouldn't.

Anyone travelling in a leading cab of a train being a driver/Guard/DSM/Cameraman/NR/S & T should all be aware of the companies cab discipline procedure - if they are not they have to be briefed before hand, I had a DSM and a camera crew doing a documentary and all the camera crew had a cab discipline brief before entering the cab.

I would never gently point nothing out to another driver driving a train unless I felt that the driver had not reacted to a signal or was running up to a station fast - if another driver mentioned anything to me whilst I was driving as if giving un asked for advice he/she would be on the cusions and I have chucked a few jobsworths out my cab before on many occasions

 

[lincolnshire]

How would they have gone on these days if we still had steam trains with a fireman on?
The driver partitioned off so that he could not speak to the fireman?
The second man on diesels the same?
Its all these people who cannot leave the phone alone , while they should be doing there work.
You look at other occupations some are just the same, building sites no end texting or on the phone. even supermarket / shop workers texting etc.
As you say all the companies staff live in fear for there jobs and are brain washing the staff, don,t delay trains etc.
Or in the case of one drivers spad, we usually get all greens on this route, oops that was a red!
Even the signalman are brainwashed into you must give the driver a green.
Its to be hope all those at the top are so perfect at doing there jobs properly and to the book.

 

[O L Leigh]

How would they have gone on these days if we still had steam trains with a fireman on?
The driver partitioned off so that he could not speak to the fireman?

Both parties would have been busy with their jobs and have little time for a natter, I would imagine.

Its all these people who cannot leave the phone alone , while they should be doing there work.
You look at other occupations some are just the same, building sites no end texting or on the phone. even supermarket / shop workers texting etc.

*Nods*

I recall visiting the Beamish Museum and catching a young lad who was behind the counter in the garage with his hand in a counter drawer busily texting away. Very authentic. :roll:

As you say all the companies staff live in fear for there jobs and are brain washing the staff, don,t delay trains etc.
Or in the case of one drivers spad, we usually get all greens on this route, oops that was a red!
Even the signalman are brainwashed into you must give the driver a green.

Er, what...?

I recognise almost nothing you've said just there. Yes there is a pressure to avoid delays and cancellations, but that is about it. Any driver having a SPAD in the circumstances you describe wouldn't be able to claim that it has anything to do with management or any of the pressures being brought to bear. Likewise, from looking out of the window in the front of my train I can fairly safely claim that I have never seen any evidence that the signallers are under pressure to give me greens. I think you're being slightly fanciful there.

Its to be hope all those at the top are so perfect at doing there jobs properly and to the book.

*Laughs bitterly*

O L Leigh

 

[150222]

Boris Johnson was filmed in the cab of a 378 once, just after the East London line re-opened. Surely that would have been a major distraction? I am refuring to Boris himself not the cameracrew.

 

[Grantham]

How would they have gone on these days if we still had steam trains with a fireman on?
The driver partitioned off so that he could not speak to the fireman?
The second man on diesels the same?
Its all these people who cannot leave the phone alone , while they should be doing there work.
You look at other occupations some are just the same, building sites no end texting or on the phone. even supermarket / shop workers texting etc.
As you say all the companies staff live in fear for there jobs and are brain washing the staff, don,t delay trains etc.
Or in the case of one drivers spad, we usually get all greens on this route, oops that was a red!
Even the signalman are brainwashed into you must give the driver a green.
Its to be hope all those at the top are so perfect at doing there jobs properly and to the book.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. If you're responsible and doing your job properly, nothing need be forbidden to you. Sometimes speaking on an electronic device is part of your job, and sometimes the workplace is very low pressure.

I had a quick flick through my pics, but I can't find one of the radio system in either a C or DL...one of the systems fitted to the radio rack is a mobile telephone! I'll take one next time I'm on one. It is also a sattelite telephone, for use in remote areas, this is a big place! The satphone function would normally only be used in remote areas with few signals, ironically for this discussion (but logically for the job at hand) it only gets used when approaching these signals.

Mick