Driving train while on a mobile - is this allowed?

[TDK]

I don't think driving anything whilst operating a mobile phone unless in an emergency can be seen as "ok"

I am quite sure the passengers on a train would think the train driver would concentrate on driving and not texting unless absolutely necessary. There should be punishment for anyone caught.

There is apparently - a P45
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Driver is sat stationary in a platform, engrossed in his text or phone call or whatever. Suddenly Buzz Buzz "Oh sh*t it's time...", quickly press send, turn phone off, reach down to put it in bag, release brake and power up ,Buzz Buzz back, draw out of platform and... Bang, TPWS. Bugger, that starting signal was red :cry: Chaos on a main line, service cancelled at next appropriate point, Driver off track, etc etc.

It's easy to sit here and argue that if the train isn't moving it's not a distraction, the reality is that risks on the railway need to be mitigated whenever reasonably possible. Allowing Drivers to use their mobiles when they are in the cab in charge of the train, moving or not, is asking for trouble.

Have you any evidence that this has actually happened?

 

[notadriver]

He does actually. BestWestern is an experienced driver of many years and is therefore very qualified on this subject. I would take what he says as gospel.

 

[newbie babs]

Does anyone monitor this problem ?

There seems to be two quite serious problems

If a train is stood waiting to leave and the driver is on the phone as BestWestern says and does not realise whats happening around them, this becomes dangerous

Also if a driver is using their phone whilst driving the train , this becomes dangerous.

If phones in cabs are needed why cant they be railway issue and left in the cab to be signed over by each driver. This would allow drivers to keep their mobiles in their lockers until the end of the shift.

I know this would seem harsh to some, but the people on the train should be the drivers first priority.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I am a little surprised that the guard is allowed to give 2 buzzes or right away when the starter signal is at red.
To take advantage of modern technology, I like to think that all drivers are can be contacted in an emergency, and vice versa. Signals, trespassers/ animals on line, etc.
Maybe best for the train/ engine itself to be fitted with a hands free mobile. Possibility of conversations being recorded?

 

[TDK]

He does actually. BestWestern is an experienced driver of many years and is therefore very qualified on this subject. I would take what he says as gospel.

Actually I was not asking you - I would like to know that this is fact or just what BestWestern deems as what could happen that's all. As for being an experienced driver it does not mean that what he is saying is actually a fact and as you say it is where is the evidence or are you just guessing he is correct!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am a little surprised that the guard is allowed to give 2 buzzes or right away when the starter signal is at red.
To take advantage of modern technology, I like to think that all drivers are can be contacted in an emergency, and vice versa. Signals, trespassers/ animals on line, etc.
Maybe best for the train/ engine itself to be fitted with a hands free mobile. Possibility of conversations being recorded?

The guard may have been on the mobile as well
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does anyone monitor this problem ?

There seems to be two quite serious problems

If a train is stood waiting to leave and the driver is on the phone as BestWestern says and does not realise whats happening around them, this becomes dangerous

Also if a driver is using their phone whilst driving the train , this becomes dangerous.

If phones in cabs are needed why cant they be railway issue and left in the cab to be signed over by each driver. This would allow drivers to keep their mobiles in their lockers until the end of the shift.

I know this would seem harsh to some, but the people on the train should be the drivers first priority.

Look, it is logical, a driver does not or should not use a mobile phone if it will be a distraction to the operation of their train, it is quite simple really, if sat at a red or at a station waiting to go don't use the phone, if a driver does not understand this they they shouldn't be in the job in the first place

 

[michael769]

I am a little surprised that the guard is allowed to give 2 buzzes or right away when the starter signal is at red.

They are not and there is often a sticker at the door controls to remind them. But they make mistakes like the rest of us!

 

[driver9000]

To take advantage of modern technology, I like to think that all drivers are can be contacted in an emergency, and vice versa. Signals, trespassers/ animals on line, etc.
Maybe best for the train/ engine itself to be fitted with a hands free mobile. Possibility of conversations being recorded?

This is already covered by NRN,CSR and in the near future GSM-R fixed radio equipment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

He does actually. BestWestern is an experienced driver of many years and is therefore very qualified on this subject. I would take what he says as gospel.

I thought Bestwestern is a Guard?

 

[313103]

I am a little surprised that the guard is allowed to give 2 buzzes or right away when the starter signal is at red.
To take advantage of modern technology, I like to think that all drivers are can be contacted in an emergency, and vice versa. Signals, trespassers/ animals on line, etc.
Maybe best for the train/ engine itself to be fitted with a hands free mobile. Possibility of conversations being recorded?

Do you think Clive that Guards that give Drivers two on the bell/buzzer do it on purpose?

Of course they are not allowed and if a driver so wishes he/she can report that fact to signaller and can request the Guard is removed from the train.

All conversations made from a drivers cab to the signaller and for that matter anybody are recorded anyway.

 

[TDK]

Of course they are not allowed and if a driver so wishes he/she can report that fact to signaller and can request the Guard is removed from the train.

If they so wish - however - I do not think that is the best way to handle that situation as a driver - A glare and a look usually lets them know that they have done wrong and to be honest I have only had 2 on the buzzer at a red on a handful of occasions and never proceeded. 2 on the buzzer actually means station duties complete - right away - it isn't a signal for the driver to move the train, that is the drivers' responsibility

 

[Latecomer]

Have you any evidence that this has actually happened?

Whether or not this particular case happened I don't have knowledge of, but there are signalling/driver recordings that back up a case where a driver was on the phone to his wife and SPADed after cross-reading and passed a signal at danger. He closed the call after TPWS intervened but as he spoke to the signaller his personal phone rang again and it could be clearly heard on the recording. He subsequently admitted he had been on and off the phone serveral times while driving.

As for buzzers, you are quite right. Any SPAD is the drivers responsibility be it that the right away signal is given by guard or dispatch staff. The driver should always check they have a proceed aspect - no one else is responsible for that.

 

[Beveridges]

Despatch staff despatching on a red can sometimes lead to dismissal if certain managers know about it

 

[Grantham]

Ballasting on the Wallerawang to Gweagybar branch, photo taken while jiffying the independant brake with 6 power notches to hold 3km/h up a 1/40.

So what about using the camera in your mobile telephone while you drive? I take heaps of pics on the move. I also telephone DCC managers, signal boxes and train control while on the run, they also ring as required... there are radio systems, but sometimes the mobile network is more reliable.

My Mrs is quivvering with laughter at this thread. She says men don't knit because they can't knit and talk at the same time. She says the same obviously applies to driving trains. I must admit I sometimes go to hands free if I'm coming up to a red or a trick bit of track.

Yes I realise I'm on the other side of the planet to you all.

Mick

 

[HH]

Actually studies have shown that this "women can multi-task" thing is just an urban myth. No-one can multi-task successfully. What you can do is swap from one task to another such that it gives the impression of multi-tasking. But, while you are doing one of these tasks you clearly are not giving your attention to the other.

That's why you shouldn't be using mobile phones while in charge of a vehicle, whether it's on the roads or on the rails.

You shouldn't shave, read the paper, put on make-up* or do any number of other tasks that require your attention either.

* All things I have seen drivers on motorways doing.

 

[Grantham]

You shouldn't shave, read the paper, put on make-up*

Not many train drivers put make up on while driving, although I have seen it happen!

How about drinking coffee?

M

 

[notadriver]

My instructor made me multi-task while driving !

 

[Latecomer]

Despatch staff despatching on a red can sometimes lead to dismissal if certain managers know about it

That may well be the case and it is not good if either guard or dispatch staff give the sign on red. All I am saying is that the driver has ultimate responsibility and if s/he proceeds on a red it is they that are at fault (hence use of DRA etc). As previously posted "right away" means all station duties are complete - it does not mean "depart".

 

[A-driver]

Generally any incident involving the train will land at the drivers feet ultimately. That's why we are paid the money we are-we have to know everybody else's job.

As some people at my depot say-if you treat every other rail employee as trying to get you sacked then you will be fine.

 

[BestWestern]

Have you any evidence that this has actually happened?

Well, SASSPAD's can and do happen. A DRA will obviously help, but of course like any safety device it loses it's effectiveness over time due to the regular routine usage of it, the same as with AWS. No system is foolproof. Signs on the platforms at some places reminding the Driver to check the signal aspect make it clear that the risk is still considered to be significant, despite systems like DRA.

As for Guards giving the 'Ready to Start' against a red starting signal, it is classed as an operational incident and if it happens and is reported the person concerned will be removed from duty at the first available point and screened for drugs and alcohol under most company policies, then subject to competence reviews and so on and generally monitored for a time when resuming their train working duties. The same should apply to a station dispatcher giving a Guard the tip against a red, and of course any Driver who accepted the 'Ready to Start' and moved the train, such is the nature of safety-critical operational roles on the railway.

 

[notadriver]

Bestwestern, no one is saying starting against signal incidents don't happen - but do they happen because a driver has been on a mobile? I actually don't think they do unless there is evidence to the contrary.

Anyway change of subject - have you thought about going for the drivers job?

 

[BestWestern]

Bestwestern, no one is saying starting against signal incidents don't happen - but do they happen because a driver has been on a mobile? I actually don't think they do unless there is evidence to the contrary.

Anyway change of subject - have you thought about going for the drivers job?

The railway is risk-averse, and so an identified risk will be mitigated as best possible. The banning of mobiles in the cab is part of this process, and one which to me makes perfect sense. I really don't see why some have such an issue with it to be honest!

As for the Driving grade, I like what I do at the moment, but who knows where the future may lead us!

 

[notadriver]

Interesting point you made about drivers travelling pass : Which TOCs have banned this ?

 

[Pumbaa]

Certainly not LM - regular Wolves to New St, Bletchley to Northampton, Rugby to Northampton and vv moves are done by both drivers and guards on mobiles in FC.

 

[driver9000]

Interesting point you made about drivers travelling pass : Which TOCs have banned this ?

I can't think of any TOC that allows Drivers to travel passenger in the leading cab.

 

[wensley]

I can't think of any TOC that allows Drivers to travel passenger in the leading cab.

Persons should only enter the driving cab if suitably qualified / in possession of a driving cab pass and in line with their duties (I'm not sure if this is the universal standard). I also understand that a person should not enter the cab if a train is approaching a caution aspect (ie. is braking) or if it cannot be established if the train is approaching a cation aspect. This presumably ensures that the driver is not distracted when focusing on approaching a danger signal.

 

[Minilad]

When travelling pass on Voyager operated services we are supposed to go in the rear cab.

 

[driver9000]

Persons should only enter the driving cab if suitably qualified / in possession of a driving cab pass and in line with their duties (I'm not sure if this is the universal standard). I also understand that a person should not enter the cab if a train is approaching a caution aspect (ie. is braking) or if it cannot be established if the train is approaching a cation aspect. This presumably ensures that the driver is not distracted when focusing on approaching a danger signal.

At my TOC entering the driving cab while the train is in motion is no-no.

 

[Pumbaa]

At my TOC entering the driving cab while the train is in motion is no-no.

It happens regularly on VT. In my experience the worst offenders are the last-trains. The TM will dispatch from the nearest door before retiring to chat with the Driver.

And yes it's a service I take regularly, and as its the home crew travelling back, they don't really care. The TM concerned works it quite regularly as well as far as I can tell from my experience.

Another forum member on here also regularly uses the service concerned, and we also tend to travel in the same coach when using the service.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

It happens regularly on VT. In my experience the worst offenders are the last-trains. The TM will dispatch from the nearest door before retiring to chat with the Driver.

And yes it's a service I take regularly, and as its the home crew travelling back, they don't really care. The TM concerned works it quite regularly as well as far as I can tell from my experience.

Another forum member on here also regularly uses the service concerned, and we also tend to travel in the same coach when using the service.

That's a spad just waiting to happen
Its a big no no with northern

 

[BestWestern]

That's a spad just waiting to happen
Its a big no no with northern

...and a couple of sackings also waiting to happen, particularly if the afore mentioned SPAD occurs

 

[GB]

Seems there is a world of differences between passenger and freight!