Driving & braking technique observations

[43096]

Do they have an anti-jerk function ?

That comes in when the move to driverless trains happens.

 

[43066]

Driving a commuter trains though takes a different technique though. Personally, intercity services, I feel the passengers should barely be aware that braking is taking place. When your stopping every 2 mins its a different matter.

Agreed. With intercity style driving there’s no excuse for jerking.

I will always try and “flare” the stop to avoid a jerk. With HSTs I found the best technique was step 3 initial application, then actually have the brakes in release when the wheels stopped turning, with brake pressure reducing, to make the stop absolutely imperceptible (and then reapply the brakes instantly of course). The main risk with HSTs was actually stopping short because the brakes took so long to release. Flaring is also possible - and easier - on modern stock with a continuously variable brake.

We weren’t taught to use the higher HST brake steps when approaching platforms, but I would regularly go into four or five when encountering restrictive signal aspects - it was impressive how well the speed came down.

For me “good” braking technique also involves not fully releasing the brakes before stopping, having made the initial application (or even worse having to take power again) - this is an inefficient use of energy, loses time and is very obvious to those sitting in the back!

 

[wobman]

I’ve often thought that the industry underestimates the amount of time lost through ultra-cautious approaches to platforms. I’m as much a supporter of defensive driving as anyone else, but there is safe driving and then there is unnecessarily pedestrian driving. I’ve often wondered how much investment in linespeed upgrades and route modernisations has been wiped out by failing to capitalise on the improved braking performance and safety margins designed into new rolling stock, by maintaining the pre-existing braking points from the previous generation of trains.

But if you arrive at a station minutes early by driving in the manner you describe, you just sit at the station until your departure time anyway.

I drive according to the weather/ railhead conditions and according to the traction driven. If you drive tread braked trains like a disk braked unit you will get yourself in a lot of bother trying to stop at stations I can assure you.

At many tocs if you use step 3 / high level braking regularly you will be getting asked why by your DM.

 

[driverd]

But if you arrive at a station minutes early by driving in the manner you describe, you just sit at the station until your departure time anyway.

I drive according to the weather/ railhead conditions and according to the traction driven. If you drive tread braked trains like a disk braked unit you will get yourself in a lot of bother trying to stop at stations I can assure you.

At many tocs if you use step 3 / high level braking regularly you will be getting asked why by your DM.

In fairness, there's plenty if routes where you can only keep time at intermediate stations by driving relatively aggressively. Yes, you'll be right time at origin and destination, but +3 at the penultimate stop, only to recover the time thanks to copious pathing/engineering time on approach to the terminus.

I think its a multifaceted issue. The TOCs are encouraged to squeeze time out wherever they can, so at the top level it's all about efficient timetables and rinsing every minute out of the infrastructure. Yet, water down to the driver/driver manager level, and the attitude is sometimes as indifferent as "sod the timetable they'll get there when they get there". It's the age old railway issue of chalking everything up to safety - and its a ludicrous arguement in most cases - to 'not do' practically anything can be justified in such terms. Heck, you could even argue that its unsafe to go near a train, compared to staying in the messroom.

The reality is, actually, the driving technique you use is as safe as the drivers judgement. You could step 3 brake everywhere, provided your judgement for a poor unit or railhead conditions etc is jedi-like. Equally, if the driver isn't as confident, you could make 10 or so step 1 applications from a few miles out to cater for any conditions. I suspect most users will have experienced both - and the reality is, actually, both styles have there place and arguably should be employed by all drivers in the right circumstances - heavy or late braking is useful to recover time, exceptionally cautious approaches are needed on the worst autumn days - to use either all the time is just silly - but some do!

 

[AJD]

Definitely no 50% initial application rule at LNER. HSTs/91s I'd use step 2 initially and adjust as required and with the 800s I let it bite in minimum brake for a few seconds till it registers a positive retardation then increase to about 30%. When bringing her to a stand, I've got it in the lowest position possible. I agree with 43066 with regards to letting HSTs/91s stop with the brake pressure reducing to make the stop unnoticeable. Some refer to it as stopping on a rising brake.

There is a requirement with 800s to place the brake into a position greater than 50% when WSP is detected to trigger the sanders (same applies to my previous TOC with the Desiro fleet) but that applies in a specific set of circumstances. When a double yellow pops out at you from around a curve with little to no warning and you're doing 125mph, that's a different kettle of fish.

 

[TheEdge]

The FLIRTs can be very jerky sometimes. I've found some days I can get my stops perfect and smooth as silk and the next it's awful. Although I think some of that is down to the way they swap from regen brake to pneumatic at low speed and if you are loosing those last few miles an hour too quick then the pneumatic brake just grabs it and you get a jerk.

I tend to start my application between 30 - 40% and play from there, don't like to go too much higher if I can avoid it. Difference for the FLIRTs is when they slide you need to counter intuitively throw in all the brake and give the WSP full range of pneumatic brake settings to use.

 

[hexagon789]

OK so the braking will be noticed, but not alarmingly so. If going straight to a higher notch of brake it is more noticeable and gives a less satisfying ride. Maybe for me its a hangover from the Pullman restaurant days, but I try and give the best ride possible for people paying alot of money for a trip. Maybe I'm just a perfectionist lol.

Nothing wrong with that, I just don't see the problem with being firmer on the brakes. Not that it makes a difference, the big thing of me is the actual final stop, a lot of modern units seem to have a holding brake which comes in at something like 2-3mph and bring the train to a very harsh rough stop. I'd rather take firm overall braking and a soft stop than the reverse.

You are a rail enthusiast, of course you’re more perceptive than most.

I wouldn't have said so going by what people invariably tell me

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2021 ==

Definitely no 50% initial application rule at LNER. HSTs/91s I'd use step 2 initially and adjust as required

So is that basing the initial braking point on where a Step 2 application would be enough to bring the train to a stand essentially? Just curious.

Thanks

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Just to be clear I am no advocate of pedestrian driving either. Indeed I have something of a reputation for the opposite! It is quite possible to drive very quickly and punctually whilst also keeping it smooth. For me that is the challenge of the modern intercity driver.

Yes of course, I wasn’t suggesting it. I do know that some driving is definitely over-cautious though. The arguments mentioned by others about slack time at the end of a schedule making any kindof hard running pointless do sorta miss the the point about importance of right time running throughout a schedule as well!

When a double yellow pops out at you from around a curve with little to no warning and you're doing 125mph, that's a different kettle of fish.

Try the GWML with its 3-aspect signalling on much of the 125mph routes!

 

[NoMorePacers]

I've noticed (mostly on 15x, given the notches of throttle are quite audible and thus easier to identify) that Northern drivers seem to on the whole to be more aggressive with their throttle inputs (I don't find it particularly uncommon to get full throttle standing starts for instance). By contrast, I've noticed TfW seem to have their units driven a lot more cautiously. EMR I've found to be somewhere near the middle.

 

[AJD]

I found step 2 worked well for me for the majority of stops. It may feel a bit soft to begin with, but once the application makes its way to all of the coaches then it bites quite nicely.

It was difficult to convince yourself much was happening with HSTs but they were good brakes once they got going. I kept my eye on the timings of the bogie cylinder pressure gauges to achieve a smooth stop as you'd need to release earlier than you would otherwise be used to with units.

Grateful for 91s being around for a little while longer but I miss HSTs madly. Turning into somewhat of a grumpy git.

 

[robbeech]

With HSTs I found the best technique was step 3 initial application,

No initial step 1 to close the flaps?

 

[43066]

No initial step 1 to close the flaps?

Nope, I drove them properly (I also seem to remember hearing 1 initially was a thing on the Western region only).

 

[43066]

We were also taught to make at least one application of step three or greater per journey to scrub the wheels and pads and prevent brake glazing. This can apparently be caused by high temperatures resulting from running with the brakes applied in a low setting.

 

[hexagon789]

Nope, I drove them properly (I also seem to remember hearing 1 initially was a thing on the Western region only).

No initial step 1 to close the flaps?

Wasn't that only really needed with the original brake pads? (The later post mid-80s ones being less 'smelly'.)

 

[TheEdge]

We were also taught to make at least one application of step three or greater per journey to scrub the wheels and pads and prevent brake glazing. This can apparently be caused by high temperatures resulting from running with the brakes applied in a low setting.

We were taught something similar with the 156 and 153s to keep everything clear of crud.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I've noticed (mostly on 15x, given the notches of throttle are quite audible and thus easier to identify) that Northern drivers seem to on the whole to be more aggressive with their throttle inputs (I don't find it particularly uncommon to get full throttle standing starts for instance). By contrast, I've noticed TfW seem to have their units driven a lot more cautiously. EMR I've found to be somewhere near the middle.

I moved from the West Midlands to the South West about 15 years ago, I was astonished at how gently the Bristol area 150s were driven compared to the thrashing the Centro units routinely got. Also how pedestrian it seemed to make the stopping services by comparison, on the Snow Hill lines you at least felt like the train was hurrying to get you to Birmingham!

 

[Retorus]

Do they have an anti-jerk function ?

I've heard corn flakes work a treat.

 

[DaveTM]

Braking technique varies bienially with us. In spring/summer most drivers do step 1(of 3) all the way in if they can. Step 2 and coasting are for error correction, step 3 only if you have cocked up. In autumn/winter for leaf fall and ice we are required to start each brake application with a spell of step 2 (so that we don't get surprised if the limit of adhesion is more than step 1 but less than step 2, and to ensure the WSP system (wheel slide/slip protection) is awake). It always feels ugly to me to shove the lever straight to step 2, then dance around while the axles spin up and down, and I am so glad we've had the official notice this year that autumn is over and we can go back to graceful braking!

As a driver, there is little that is more satisfying than shoving it into step 1 from 2 miles out in the pitch black of night and not having to touch the lever until you release the brakes at <4mph for the gentle stop on the mark.

 

[driverd]

Braking technique varies bienially with us. In spring/summer most drivers do step 1(of 3) all the way in if they can. Step 2 and coasting are for error correction, step 3 only if you have cocked up.

Interesting to hear - quite different to most I've heard of in so far as the initial is more aggressive in low adhesion - if you don't mind me asking, what traction do you drive?

 

[Meerkat]

I would prefer strong braking as a passenger - it just feels more like a service that wants to be fast and get you there as soon as possible.
The train can be as fast as you like, but its always the interminable trundle into London that I remember (I know that mainly isnt due to braking)
I assume thats a benefit of HS2 - fast til very close to the end (I know its slower in the tunnels but still pretty fast)?