Driving & braking technique observations

[londonmidland]

Just before I start, I’d like to make clear that this isn’t a criticism of any sort, in any way, but an observation of the different driving and braking techniques used on various different trains and TOCs.

There’s many various reasons and factors as to why something is done in a particular way, such as signalling placements, permitted speeds, rail conditions etc etc. However, this is more of a simplified thread/observation.

I’ve noticed whilst travelling on the ECML with LNER frequently, both Azuma and Class 91 trains, can and will, brake quite sharply, sometimes feeling like an ‘emergency’ brake. Similarly, I’ve noticed Pendolino’s do this, too.

In comparison, whilst travelling with EMR on the 222s between Sheffield and Derby, their braking is a lot more gentle. I find Cross Country seem to be a bit more ‘aggressive’ on the same stretch, with their Voyagers. Both accelerating and braking.

Has anyone else noticed differences between trains and/or TOCs with the way they drive?

Once again, no criticisms to how drivers and TOCs do things, just an observation.

 

[mmh]

Surely it will all be due to the route? If a train's early then perhaps a driver might be a bit more leisurely, and of course some will drive slightly differently to others, but I struggle to think it's TOC specific.

In my limited experience, you know when emergency braking happens!

 

[ComUtoR]

There’s many various reasons and factors as to why something is done in a particular way, such as signalling placements, permitted speeds, rail conditions etc etc. However, this is more of a simplified thread/observation.

Route to route it can vary due to different techniques being used between each location. Some locations I can drop my speed by 7/8 mph and then just coast to the next location. But the next day at the same location If I'm running late I'm gonna hold linespeed as close as I can to pull a minute or so back. Some routes also have a longer pathway between stations. You get to know where you need to push and where you can play it more casual.

Another route oddity is how you were trained. I have a route where I know the precise braking points and I know where I can push them to the limit. Some days I just go old school training and hammer it. Modern route training tends to be more defensive. Some stations are notorious for overruns so training techniques are way more defensive than old school smash it in and hope style.

Traction is also a major factor. I sign 6 different units and all require a different technique. Mostly my driving style doesn't change but you still have to factor in how each unit reacts and how each unit needs love and attention in different ways.

Has anyone else noticed differences between trains and/or TOCs with the way they drive?

Each TOC has evolved PDPs (professional driving policies) over time. There can be some pretty noticeable differences between TOCs. I would say its easier to notice the difference between TOCs than the difference between Drivers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==

Once again, no criticisms to how drivers and TOCs do things, just an observation.

Constructive criticism is good. PDPs typically have a 'passenger comfort' element so it would be interesting to hear constructive comments from passengers.

It's also constructive to hear critisim from colleagues. I'm an 'earlier and lighter' Driver because that's how I was trained. Some days I like to go hard and fast but it isn't my default. I remember a discussion with a colleague at a Sister TOC on this forum where their technique was 60/60. As I drove for both TOCs it was interesting to hear and see different points of view.

 

[DoubleO]

Apparently LNER use 50% brake force as a minimum application, which is a pretty hefty initial application in my opinion. Not sure if that's on 91s but I believe it's the case on 80x traction.

 

[hexagon789]

Apparently LNER use 50% brake force as a minimum application, which is a pretty hefty initial application in my opinion.

I wouldn't say that when a double yellow (or even a single) looms out of the stygian gloom at 125mph...

Always better to brake too hard too early, than too light too late I would've thought.

 

[robbeech]

The country has seen a LOT of new trains in the past few years. Many of them replacing units in excess of 30 (and even 40) years old. Technology has moved on a lot and most of these trains now accelerate faster and timings have and will be changed to suit this. Braking performance is likely to be better too enabling later braking also to save time.
I’ve noticed many comments about a (in many parts subjective) decline I ride quality with much new stock and of course there’s the ongoing comments about the mediocre at best seat comfort on many new trains. Both of these will have an effect on how acceleration and braking is perceived.

 

[Kneedown]

I like to give my passengers the smoothest of rides, so when time allows I brake early and light, meaning I don't have to adjust my technique too much during the leaffall season. A 222 brake, whilst good, gives very little feedback through the controls too, so it is hard to gauge the rate of deceleration, and the slightest movement of the controller can result in a much harsher application, it is that sensitive. A 180 offers a far more positive braking experience with good feedback, meaning i'm far more comfortable with leaving it a tad later than I would with a 222.

 

[driverd]

Even within my depot at my TOC, you'll see a very vast array of different styles and techniques. On a TOC to TOC level, the main differences are likely to be around things such as one TOC stipulating a maximum speed to hit a platform, where another may not. The same can be said for restrictive signal aspects; some companies insist on certain speeds by certain aspects (a common one is 40mph single yellow, 15 mph at the AWS magnet for the red), other TOCs merely offer guidance.

That aside, however, driving style will be much more individual. I've seen people drive very cautiously, whilst being horrendously rough with brake applications etc. You will also likely notice the difference between a driver who releases the brake as they stop (gives a smooth stop, unless you mistime it, in which case its often awful), vs a driver who simply leaves the brake in (gives a jerk as the train stops, quite noticeable on a 158 as you're stood by the doors, in my experience).

I do look forward to the day someone travels on one of my services and posts on these boards, would be most interesting to hear what customers make of it!

 

[ExRes]

Driver attitude was very relevant on HSTs when shutting down power, Full Power to Initial and then Off gives a nice smooth ride while Full Power to Off in one go gives an uncomfortable snatch felt throughout the train, I often wondered whether those of my colleagues that used the latter method did it through ignorance or malice

 

[Taunton]

Possibly London Underground could give some instruction to London Overground on how to come into stations. The slow, ponderous approach by the Overground into stations is behind their significantly slower timetables nowadays than were in place with electrification a century ago, with the same stops. The most impressive was the way, when the JLE was introduced for the first 10 years, it had platform edge doors but was manually driven, yet would still come into the station at full speed and stop right on the button against the doors.

 

[irish_rail]

Apparently LNER use 50% brake force as a minimum application, which is a pretty hefty initial application in my opinion. Not sure if that's on 91s but I believe it's the case on 80x traction.

Speechless......if thats true, I feel very sorry for LNER passengers. On an 80x every brake application theat doesn't involve adverse signals should start at about 20 percent and then increase after a couple of seconds, this gives a smooth HST like ride. If going straight to 50 percent not only will passengers be thrown about , but it gives a very unsatisfactory ride , not worthy of an "intercity" journey, would make you feel your on some kind of metro or tube train....

 

[ComUtoR]

If going straight to 50 percent not only will passengers be thrown about , but it gives a very unsatisfactory ride , not worthy of an "intercity" journey, would make you feel your on some kind of metro or tube train....

Do they have an anti-jerk function ?

 

[GN Boy]

Different type of traction; however 60% initial brake on a 700 and I’ve never felt it would throw passengers about.

 

[irish_rail]

Different type of traction; however 60% initial brake on a 700 and I’ve never felt it would throw passengers about.

Driving a commuter trains though takes a different technique though. Personally, intercity services, I feel the passengers should barely be aware that braking is taking place. When your stopping every 2 mins its a different matter.

 

[hexagon789]

Driving a commuter trains though takes a different technique though. Personally, intercity services, I feel the passengers should barely be aware that braking is taking place. When your stopping every 2 mins its a different matter.

Either I always get rough drivers or I'm more perceptive than most, because I've never been on a train journey where I haven't noticed the braking.

 

[Fincra5]

Speechless......if thats true, I feel very sorry for LNER passengers. On an 80x every brake application theat doesn't involve adverse signals should start at about 20 percent and then increase after a couple of seconds, this gives a smooth HST like ride. If going straight to 50 percent not only will passengers be thrown about , but it gives a very unsatisfactory ride , not worthy of an "intercity" journey, would make you feel your on some kind of metro or tube train....

ATO on 700s does 80%.... Initial "Harsher" braking doesn't really throw anyone around. However, stopping in a High Notch or % Brake will give that JERK at the end.

 

[ComUtoR]

ATO on 700s does 80%.... Initial "Harsher" braking doesn't really throw anyone around. However, stopping in a High Notch or % Brake will give that JERK at the end.

700s used to be pretty awful until they adjusted the jerk.

The brake demand as well as the traction demand is jerk limited by the TMS. The jerk limit is adjustable by maintenance staff between 0.5m/s³ and 1 m/s³

The brake modules will also compensate for loading.

I always found the 700s a pain in the bottom to get that really nice and smooth stop. It took a lot of practice. You really feel the treads kicking in at the last second.

 

[Halish Railway]

Living on the Wharfedale line I’ve noticed that there is one location where different driving techniques are noticeable; Between Kirkstall Forge & Apperley Jn (Heading away from Leeds) the linespeed increases from 80mph to 90mph, some drivers do accelerate up to 90mph whilst other drivers coast from that point and will smoothly decelerate down to 50mph to diverge at Apperley Jn, whilst others will sharply brake from 90mph. I’ve also noticed that 333s are more likely to accelerate up to 90mph.

I also had quite a scary experience once when the train passed a double-yellow signal and still accelerated up to 90mph. It was only once the train had got to the single yellow signal that full service was applied.

 

[irish_rail]

Either I always get rough drivers or I'm more perceptive than most, because I've never been on a train journey where I haven't noticed the braking.

OK so the braking will be noticed, but not alarmingly so. If going straight to a higher notch of brake it is more noticeable and gives a less satisfying ride. Maybe for me its a hangover from the Pullman restaurant days, but I try and give the best ride possible for people paying alot of money for a trip. Maybe I'm just a perfectionist lol.

 

[Egg Centric]

I do look forward to the day someone travels on one of my services and posts on these boards, would be most interesting to hear what customers make of it!

Giz a cab ride and I'll give you a most thorough review

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I’ve often thought that the industry underestimates the amount of time lost through ultra-cautious approaches to platforms. I’m as much a supporter of defensive driving as anyone else, but there is safe driving and then there is unnecessarily pedestrian driving. I’ve often wondered how much investment in linespeed upgrades and route modernisations has been wiped out by failing to capitalise on the improved braking performance and safety margins designed into new rolling stock, by maintaining the pre-existing braking points from the previous generation of trains.

 

[ComUtoR]

How many minutes and man hours are lost to incidents ?

There is a trade off with defensive driving. If the number of incidents are reduced then overall it's better for all involved.

PDPs often come about because of precious incidents. A safer railway is certainly a better one.

 

[robbeech]

Speechless......if thats true, I feel very sorry for LNER passengers. On an 80x every brake application theat doesn't involve adverse signals should start at about 20 percent and then increase after a couple of seconds, this gives a smooth HST like ride. If going straight to 50 percent not only will passengers be thrown about , but it gives a very unsatisfactory ride , not worthy of an "intercity" journey, would make you feel your on some kind of metro or tube train....

Whilst we can argue that between ECML stations the passengers are already in agony so might not notice this, in reality be it an initial 50% brake or whatever I’ve never noticed much of an issue with it. Whether there’s any software that gradually increases the brake pressure to minimise any sudden effects I don’t know but I certainly can’t complain. At higher speeds on the 80x how much of initial braking effort is from the discs and how much is regenerative ?

Either I always get rough drivers or I'm more perceptive than most, because I've never been on a train journey where I haven't noticed the braking.

You are a rail enthusiast, of course you’re more perceptive than most.

 

[lammergeier]

Longest regular coasting stretch that I use is a good ten miles where you can drop from 125 mph to 80 without using the brake. When travelling pass or in the cab with other drivers it's noticeable to me when they keep power open then brake for the 80.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Dec 2021 ==

Speechless......if thats true, I feel very sorry for LNER passengers. On an 80x every brake application theat doesn't involve adverse signals should start at about 20 percent and then increase after a couple of seconds, this gives a smooth HST like ride. If going straight to 50 percent not only will passengers be thrown about , but it gives a very unsatisfactory ride , not worthy of an "intercity" journey, would make you feel your on some kind of metro or tube train....

I had actually assumed that was old info for the HST's, straight into step 3 or higher being typical for high speed station stops

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

I’ve often thought that the industry underestimates the amount of time lost through ultra-cautious approaches to platforms. I’m as much a supporter of defensive driving as anyone else, but there is safe driving and then there is unnecessarily pedestrian driving. I’ve often wondered how much investment in linespeed upgrades and route modernisations has been wiped out by failing to capitalise on the improved braking performance and safety margins designed into new rolling stock, by maintaining the pre-existing braking points from the previous generation of trains.

interesting you say that actually, i know at a certain TOC, on older traction types with step brakes, its frowned upon to use step 3 (out of 3 brake steps+ emergency) for normal braking, but as new stock comes in with no steps you can't really tell without studying the brake percentage how much brake is on, so tend to come in either much quicker or much slower to stations.

 

[Comfy]

Possibly London Underground could give some instruction to London Overground on how to come into stations. The slow, ponderous approach by the Overground into stations is behind their significantly slower timetables nowadays than were in place with electrification a century ago, with the same stops. The most impressive was the way, when the JLE was introduced for the first 10 years, it had platform edge doors but was manually driven, yet would still come into the station at full speed and stop right on the button against the doors.

I don't know much about the underground but they won't suffer much LRA

 

[bramling]

Possibly London Underground could give some instruction to London Overground on how to come into stations. The slow, ponderous approach by the Overground into stations is behind their significantly slower timetables nowadays than were in place with electrification a century ago, with the same stops. The most impressive was the way, when the JLE was introduced for the first 10 years, it had platform edge doors but was manually driven, yet would still come into the station at full speed and stop right on the button against the doors.

Even LU has had a bit of a crisis of confidence in recent years, hence LU’s “ATO can’t come soon enough” attitude.

There’s quite a sharp divide between old-hand drivers versus those from the last decade or two. The old-hand ones tend to go straight to maximum brake and then take off as necessary. Whereas nowadays drivers are generally trained to start lightly and put more on.

Tunnel driving does allow trains to be driven much more closely to the limits of performance. The only variable is the train itself, which in turn is less of an issue on newer fleets, which will generally between good, very good and excellent, as opposed to older fleets where things could be more variable.

 

[Taunton]

I don't know much about the underground but they won't suffer much LRA

They have lack of adhesion issues very considerably on the open sections of the Met (especially) and the east end of the Central, and indeed other open sections as well. See :

Specialist trains lead the charge against leaf fall on the Piccadilly line - Transport for London (tfl.gov.uk)

 

[mugam4]

Possibly London Underground could give some instruction to London Overground on how to come into stations. The slow, ponderous approach by the Overground into stations is behind their significantly slower timetables nowadays than were in place with electrification a century ago, with the same stops. The most impressive was the way, when the JLE was introduced for the first 10 years, it had platform edge doors but was manually driven, yet would still come into the station at full speed and stop right on the button against the doors.

The ATO on S-Stock is awful for this, it'll coast at an absolute crawl for a several seconds at the last minute to stop itself in the perfect position compared to the Jubilee's "drop the anchors and put it somewhere within the platform door limits" approach

 

[irish_rail]

I’ve often thought that the industry underestimates the amount of time lost through ultra-cautious approaches to platforms. I’m as much a supporter of defensive driving as anyone else, but there is safe driving and then there is unnecessarily pedestrian driving. I’ve often wondered how much investment in linespeed upgrades and route modernisations has been wiped out by failing to capitalise on the improved braking performance and safety margins designed into new rolling stock, by maintaining the pre-existing braking points from the previous generation of trains.

Just to be clear I am no advocate of pedestrian driving either. Indeed I have something of a reputation for the opposite! It is quite possible to drive very quickly and punctually whilst also keeping it smooth. For me that is the challenge of the modern intercity driver.