Drivers : Red Ahead Reminders

[TDK]

I think the suggestion was a solution to drivers using their own ‘makeshift’ reminders. No one is saying there's anything wrong with that, quite the contrary, I think it is just a suggestion that something could be built into the cab to help you guys and remove the need for you to come up with and use your own improvised reminder aids.

No one is trying the dumb the job down, just suggest innovative solutions to an issue, which to me (not a driver!), seems to have been overlooked by train manufacturers.

It would seem you’re all quite happy doing your own thing, so maybe this is a non-issue. I'm just looking at it from an outsider's perspective and coming up with a solution.

Unfortunately, and this is not directed at you but there are managers who have never driven a train who think they are helping with ideas on reducing SPAD issues wanting to put extra reminders in the cabs, this will lead to extra distraction and also the possibility of more incidents. The issue is down to recruitment and training, also down to monitoring by managers. If drivers were monitored correctly, had a anonymous reporting system where they can report near misses (near incidents) at high risk locations, have the balls to tell a manger that they are fatigued or distracted from outside distractions and were not "punished" for an incident but used to help others this would be a good and positive step to reducing safety of the line incidents. There is machinery in place that is addressing this and also Non Technical Skills are now being monitored and put into the training program, not that I personally agree with all of this but it seems that management are waking up to the fact that train drivers are not robots and if they have an incident it is totally their fault. I also think that management should look at incident free drivers that have been driving for 10 years plus and compare their driving skills, preparation for work and their attitude towards the job against drivers who have repeat incidents.

These new innovations for preventing SPADS are not as good as what the drivers currently use, their own methods, find out what drivers who have been driving for over 10 years with no incidents and then maybe you will come up with a solution that works, be it a red card, risk triggered commentary, singing a song by simply red or what ever it may be!

 

[The Snap]

Unfortunately, and this is not directed at you but there are managers who have never driven a train who think they are helping with ideas on reducing SPAD issues wanting to put extra reminders in the cabs, this will lead to extra distraction and also the possibility of more incidents. The issue is down to recruitment and training, also down to monitoring by managers. If drivers were monitored correctly, had a anonymous reporting system where they can report near misses (near incidents) at high risk locations, have the balls to tell a manger that they are fatigued or distracted from outside distractions and were not "punished" for an incident but used to help others this would be a good and positive step to reducing safety of the line incidents. There is machinery in place that is addressing this and also Non Technical Skills are now being monitored and put into the training program, not that I personally agree with all of this but it seems that management are waking up to the fact that train drivers are not robots and if they have an incident it is totally their fault. I also think that management should look at incident free drivers that have been driving for 10 years plus and compare their driving skills, preparation for work and their attitude towards the job against drivers who have repeat incidents.

These new innovations for preventing SPADS are not as good as what the drivers currently use, their own methods, find out what drivers who have been driving for over 10 years with no incidents and then maybe you will come up with a solution that works, be it a red card, risk triggered commentary, singing a song by simply red or what ever it may be!

Fair points.

The anonymous reporting system is a good idea. In my part of the industry, we have a reporting system for close calls and near misses. Unfortunately it isn't anonymous because management like to be able to identify who has raised the close call and discuss it with the individual. As a result, I suspect the numbers that are raised are much less than they would be if anonymous, purely for fear of castigation.

Anonymous reporting would encourage people to be brutally honest about what they did or what they saw. These can then be investigated and proper changes made. In some cases, yes, it would be necessary to identify the individual to discuss the incident with them, but there shouldn't be punishment if accidental. I’m a firm believer of not punishing mistakes (persistent mistakes of a similar natures you’ve got a problem), but learning what went wrong and how it can be prevented in future. No one sets out to make mistakes, yet sometimes do for one reason or another.

 

[ExRes]

I have found that I do something different from the normal, normal being a green aspect leaving a station. I would only select a notch depending on traction that is less than 50% power and shut off when I get to a certain speed, all I am thinking about is the red signal and it's location, I an not thinking at the time "why is it red" only that it is red and I have to stop before it. If I see a yellow or 2 yellows ahead I will automatically shut off power and start reducing the speed no matter how far away the red is this is doing something different to normal. If I am in AB working and pass a distant at caution and there is a station between the distant and the stop I will use the DRA even if a home signal is off, against what they say but it works for me. With a TSR or an ESR I do nothing as there is always a reminder at a station platform. If I am constantly getting caution or preliminary caution signals due to following another train I will slow down enough to get a green then keep the speed at a constant so when I reach the next signal it will most likely be green, if it is 2 yellows I slow down even more until I get a speed that will prevent me having to approach a red.

My DI told me many moons ago that if you can avoid stopping at a red by controlling the speed of your train it is one less that you could potentially pass and this is the best advice I was ever given!

In my opinion by far the most sensible method, I see, or should I say saw, no need whatsoever for all this vocalising signal aspects or any form of temporary reminders, although if that's what keeps any driver comfortable then I've certainly no argument with them

I had almost 16 years pre and post DRA driving without a SPAD or any need for any of these modern buzz ideas, overconfidence is an accident waiting to happen of course, but I firmly believe that confidence in your own ability is the major part of the professionalism a driver should both have and show

 

[W230]

That is poor practice

Just the way I was taught, with a view to never creeping past the signal which has unfortunately happened to a few drivers recently at my TOC. Where, as mentioned up thread, they slowed down initially for the red but then became distracted late on and crept past. I was told that they like to see the brake applied and stay applied on the download, stopping at an appropriate distance from the signal - rather than on/off or slamming it in step 3 on approach because you've carried too much speed up to the signal.

If I've been taught incorrectly that's fine - but please do elaborate so I can improve to your suggested standard! Any suggestion whether it works for the individual driver or not is still worthwhile discussing, surely? I certainly don't want to be having a SPAD.

Interesting. We were told by our fleet on our electrostars that although knocking the DRA in at the ramp will disable the regen it won't change the rate of retardation but you will feel the regen drop off. Implying that it is fine to do although we were trained to set it when stopped for good measure.

Very interesting because i'd assumed we both worked for the same TOC. Maybe we don't! I would imagine at low speeds approaching the red (ie like you say on the platform) that the unit would be working on the air brakes only by this point. But we were certainly told "don't use it on the move" when I came through training.

 

[theageofthetra]

As a trainee driver what TDK posted is the approach instilled into me by my DI. Makes perfect sense to me. As a senior driver said to me once whilst out doing routes 'He can't remember anyone getting sacked for driving too slowly or cautiously in his 35 years in the job'. Good advice?

 

[W230]

As a trainee driver what TDK posted is the approach instilled into me by my DI. Makes perfect sense to me. As a senior driver said to me once whilst out doing routes 'He can't remember anyone getting sacked for driving too slowly or cautiously in his 35 years in the job'. Good advice?

Definitely. The same for me so perhaps i wasn't clear though in that this was already expected of us anyway, having brought out the driving policy to reiterate that fact. No more than half power on restricted signals, while i also (as already mentioned) will slow on restricted signals to get back on greens and certainly try to reduce ever approaching a red signal in the first place.

But sometimes approaching a red cannot be avoided!

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

That's what the DRA is for, plus the sunflower, that and prioritisation.

ON THE MOVE, when sighting a double or single yellow, that's all that's important, sit up, pay full attention, nothing else matters, It's a yellow, power off, step 1 on the brake, bring the speed down early and lightly, It's RED AHEAD, Get her down to no more than 40 MPH past a single yellow, fix where the Red is visually and mentally if possible, mentally if not possible to do both, 30 MPH half way to RED, 20MPH at magnet and brake smoothly to stop a coach length from the RED, never forgetting that you have 3 more brake steps and a sander button ! Never run out of options close to a RED, there are no points for being a hero in this game.


AT A STOP/STATION The most important task is to remember that the signal ahead is red.

Forget about what's on TV tonight, or thinking about should you get your grub out of your bag, or looking at the talent on the platform.

Stop, Brake to step 3, Reverser to Neutral, DRA on

Station Duties, remember RED AHEAD

Direction controller to forward, brake to step 1, look up, check aspect and/or sunflower, DRA off, take power, no more than notch 5, IT'S RED AHEAD

And if you can't remember what colour the last aspect was, IT WAS SINGLE BLOODY YELLOW.


All that is PDP, and not a bad part of PDP

anything ELSE, red phones, different colour paint can tops etc. etc. runs the risk of introducing another, unofficial tier of potential things to forget. Stick to the rules, and repetition of the rules,


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unfortunately, and this is not directed at you but there are managers who have never driven a train who think they are helping with ideas on reducing SPAD issues wanting to put extra reminders in the cabs, this will lead to extra distraction and also the possibility of more incidents. The issue is down to recruitment and training, also down to monitoring by managers. If drivers were monitored correctly, had a anonymous reporting system where they can report near misses (near incidents) at high risk locations, have the balls to tell a manger that they are fatigued or distracted from outside distractions and were not "punished" for an incident but used to help others this would be a good and positive step to reducing safety of the line incidents. There is machinery in place that is addressing this and also Non Technical Skills are now being monitored and put into the training program, not that I personally agree with all of this but it seems that management are waking up to the fact that train drivers are not robots and if they have an incident it is totally their fault. I also think that management should look at incident free drivers that have been driving for 10 years plus and compare their driving skills, preparation for work and their attitude towards the job against drivers who have repeat incidents.

These new innovations for preventing SPADS are not as good as what the drivers currently use, their own methods, find out what drivers who have been driving for over 10 years with no incidents and then maybe you will come up with a solution that works, be it a red card, risk triggered commentary, singing a song by simply red or what ever it may be!

I agree completely

 

[Llama]

Well said. Ideally a driver should be able to use the systems developed for the reasons they were developed - AWS and DRA. Anything else introduced to the cab forms a risk in its own right, especially if you form a reliance on it, and possibly detracts from skills over time, causing people to 'drive by numbers'.

You should be able to simply fall into certain mindsets when you need to, ie when there is a conflict of procedures (starting away from a station on a single yellow, or increases in permissible speed approaching cautionary / danger signals, or starting away from stations or signal checks towards TSRs/ESRs) - you need to be able to prioritise. That little exclamation mark in your head should light up and that should be enough, you should be able to work out the rest yourself.

 

[455driver]

I can think of one location where, if you shut off at the single yellow, you won't get to the red even if you don't touch the brake!
It is all well and saying it must be done this way or that way but sometimes it just doesn't work!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

My method is just use the DRA & I even object to using that as I think it's the Dummies Reminder Appliance.

Never used to have it in BR days, it's only a modern thing.

Stop at a station with a yellow, I begrudgingly apply the DRA, shove the brake in full service & MS to Neutral.

If I stop at a red, then the brake goes around into Emergency, the MS to Neutral & DRA gets begrudgingly set. The reason I do the extra of Emergency, is because that's the way I was trained to do it, its never let me down once and it makes you think why it was put there in the first place & check.

The only reason I do it is just to keep them in the orifice happy.

 

[dk1]

On class 91s and DVTs we have speed limiters so when I start against a yellow I set the speed limiter to 25mph as a reminder.

We are not permitted to do that on AGA 90/DVTs. Must be set at 100 Norwich to Chelmsford then 90 there on to Liv St. All down to an operating incident a few years ago. I don't agree with it but have to accept.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

My method is just use the DRA & I even object to using that as I think it's the Dummies Reminder Appliance.

Never used to have it in BR days, it's only a modern thing.

Stop at a station with a yellow, I begrudgingly apply the DRA, shove the brake in full service & MS to Neutral.

If I stop at a red, then the brake goes around into Emergency, the MS to Neutral & DRA gets begrudgingly set. The reason I do the extra of Emergency, is because that's the way I was trained to do it, its never let me down once and it makes you think why it was put there in the first place & check.

The only reason I do it is just to keep them in the orifice happy.

You have a point, never drove a single loco that had a DRA apart from a 67, BUT it's there on the traction I drive now, and the **** storm that descends on your head if you get a download and haven't used it, or the "OUT THE DOOR" scenario if you have a SPAD and haven't used makes it not worth thinking about if I agree with it or not. - and people think we're overpaid, cant think of many other jobs where a minimum of 6 months suspended, will I keep my job grief descends on your head for an honest mistake

 

[91104]

We are not permitted to do that on AGA 90/DVTs. Must be set at 100 Norwich to Chelmsford then 90 there on to Liv St. All down to an operating incident a few years ago. I don't agree with it but have to accept.

That seems a bit silly having a useful tool to mitigate against having a SPAD and not being allowed to use it.
We've got no rules on how you use the ASL and I just wind it to 130 as they don't always tally up with the speedo so if set at 125 can knock power off early.
The only time I really use the ASL is as mentioned when starting away from a single yellow with the red out of sight and when I'm put on the slows and also comes in handy for temp block working and single line working.

 

[SkinnyDave]

That seems a bit silly having a useful tool to mitigate against having a SPAD and not being allowed to use it.
We've got no rules on how you use the ASL and I just wind it to 130 as they don't always tally up with the speedo so if set at 125 can knock power off early.
The only time I really use the ASL is as mentioned when starting away from a single yellow with the red out of sight and when I'm put on the slows and also comes in handy for temp block working and single line working.

I never knew you guys had that on the 225s hopefully you will have them on 800/1

 

[dk1]

That seems a bit silly having a useful tool to mitigate against having a SPAD and not being allowed to use it.
We've got no rules on how you use the ASL and I just wind it to 130 as they don't always tally up with the speedo so if set at 125 can knock power off early.

Tell me about it Another incident will occur and it will all change again no doubt. Knee jerk reactions all the flipping time these days.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

One way to look at it is:

The first aspect you get other than a red is yellow, so the 1st power notch is 1, I'd say that's generally used for attach/detach, but you could use it to take power & trundle up towards the next signal until you can clearly see it. But notch 2 is probably a little better

Second aspect depending on the signalling is 2 yellows, so you can use notch 2 or 3 & trundle up again and just keep your speed down, so you slowly but surely start picking up greens. It's called defensive driving, they can't touch you for doing it and if it causes a delay, well that's down to either the TPU's failure to plan it properly, the signaller has ballsed it up or such like.

So if asked just pop a couple of lines on a report form, running on restrictive aspects, driving defensively. It sends the TDA clerk after someone else.

But TBQH your DI should be telling you everything you need to know.

 

[Rich McLean]

That's what the DRA is for, plus the sunflower, that and prioritisation.

ON THE MOVE, when sighting a double or single yellow, that's all that's important, sit up, pay full attention, nothing else matters, It's a yellow, power off, step 1 on the brake, bring the speed down early and lightly, It's RED AHEAD, Get her down to no more than 40 MPH past a single yellow, fix where the Red is visually and mentally if possible, mentally if not possible to do both, 30 MPH half way to RED, 20MPH at magnet and brake smoothly to stop a coach length from the RED, never forgetting that you have 3 more brake steps and a sander button ! Never run out of options close to a RED, there are no points for being a hero in this game.


AT A STOP/STATION The most important task is to remember that the signal ahead is red.

Forget about what's on TV tonight, or thinking about should you get your grub out of your bag, or looking at the talent on the platform.

Stop, Brake to step 3, Reverser to Neutral, DRA on

Station Duties, remember RED AHEAD

Direction controller to forward, brake to step 1, look up, check aspect and/or sunflower, DRA off, take power, no more than notch 5, IT'S RED AHEAD

And if you can't remember what colour the last aspect was, IT WAS SINGLE BLOODY YELLOW.


All that is PDP, and not a bad part of PDP

anything ELSE, red phones, different colour paint can tops etc. etc. runs the risk of introducing another, unofficial tier of potential things to forget. Stick to the rules, and repetition of the rules,

Post of the thread

 

[ComUtoR]

...20MPH at magnet

...AT A STOP/STATION The most important task is to remember that the signal ahead is red.

Everything else apart from those two but more because I wish to add more advice for them.

20mph at the magnet doesn't always work and it is important to remember that some areas (London Bridge Corridor) magnet are ****ing close to the signal and not the standard distance. Anecdotally I can give examples of where Drivers were so concerned with making a set speed at the magnet they passed the red anyway.

Stopping at stations also has an increased risk where you can be to focused on the red to realize you have station duties to consider and you can make an error (offside door etc) It also works in reverse and again, anecdotally I can give examples where a Driver has released the doors at a red.

Everything comes at a price and you absolutely must remember than over complication leads to error. Keep it simple and use the tools provided. I totally agree with both posters that adding things like phones just introduces error. I do agree, in principle that you need to use what works for you.

A professional attitude goes a very long way.

Slow down, drive safe. o/

 

[TDK]

One way to look at it is:

The first aspect you get other than a red is yellow, so the 1st power notch is 1, I'd say that's generally used for attach/detach, but you could use it to take power & trundle up towards the next signal until you can clearly see it. But notch 2 is probably a little better

Second aspect depending on the signalling is 2 yellows, so you can use notch 2 or 3 & trundle up again and just keep your speed down, so you slowly but surely start picking up greens. It's called defensive driving, they can't touch you for doing it and if it causes a delay, well that's down to either the TPU's failure to plan it properly, the signaller has ballsed it up or such like.

So if asked just pop a couple of lines on a report form, running on restrictive aspects, driving defensively. It sends the TDA clerk after someone else.

But TBQH your DI should be telling you everything you need to know.

Sorry but I do not agree, this all depends on traction, if you select notch 1 at a single yellow in a 158 you will take probably an hour to get to the red, the same as notch 2 and also the same with most units with 7 steps, if I leave a station on a single yellow I know where the red is, I know the gradient and I will take the train up to a speed where I can comfortably stop at that red, it may be 30mph it may be 10mph depending on gradient and location, the step you use is irrelevant unless it is in your PDP, for me it is max on notch 5 with a 7 notch power controller or notch 2 with a 4 notch power controller, as for certain speeds passing either 2 yellows or a single yellow this is also not set in stone, I can pass a single yellow at 70mph on 3 aspect signalling and comfortable stop at the red, also well over 40mph with 4 aspect signalling as the line speed at the location determines the signal spacing, I gather you are not a driver Harley and just quoting what you think should be done?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Everything else apart from those two but more because I wish to add more advice for them.

20mph at the magnet doesn't always work and it is important to remember that some areas (London Bridge Corridor) magnet are ****ing close to the signal and not the standard distance. Anecdotally I can give examples of where Drivers were so concerned with making a set speed at the magnet they passed the red anyway.

Stopping at stations also has an increased risk where you can be to focused on the red to realize you have station duties to consider and you can make an error (offside door etc) It also works in reverse and again, anecdotally I can give examples where a Driver has released the doors at a red.

Everything comes at a price and you absolutely must remember than over complication leads to error. Keep it simple and use the tools provided. I totally agree with both posters that adding things like phones just introduces error. I do agree, in principle that you need to use what works for you.

A professional attitude goes a very long way.

Slow down, drive safe. o/

There has never been a case of any speed at a magnet it the speed 200m from the signal, yes most magnets are about this distance from the signals but many are not and the PDP and all PDP's I have seen say 15mph 200m from a red to stop 20m short of the signal, it is known as the 15/20 rule.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I am a driver ask 455driver. And probably done more forms of traction than most.

That includes classes 158, 159, 170, 442, 444, 455, 456, 458, 450, 411, 412, 413, 414, 415, 416, 419, 421, 423, 432 & 438. Plus 08,09,33,47 & 73!

 

[455driver]

I am a driver ask 455driver.

It's true, twice I have seen him leave the messroom to drive a train!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Thank you. :grin:

I taught him everything I don't know.

 

[ComUtoR]

There has never been a case of any speed at a magnet it the speed 200m from the signal, yes most magnets are about this distance from the signals but many are not and the PDP and all PDP's I have seen say 15mph 200m from a red to stop 20m short of the signal, it is known as the 15/20 rule.

I am fully cognizant of the rule. What I tried to highlight is that Drivers who are out there aiming for the magnet going 20mph are at risk and it is not a good way to approach a signal. I can go into graphic detail about how bad aiming for the magnet can be and if you take my post in context with Greyhounds you can see why I highlighted that point.

The issue I make is that doing X to achieve Y is not always a good idea. Habits are bad in our job and things like unconscious competency comes into play. Repetitive tasks lose their impact after a while and you are simply repeating a task with little meaning. AWS magnets are one that usually crops up when a Driver gets repeated AWS magnets and ends up cancelling them over and over and over without acting. In context to what has already been said (in fact, a point you already made) Sticking a phone up in your view simply becomes another task and you can lose your focus because you are so intent on sticking a phone up you forget to brake adequately, read through/across etc.

Doing what works is a good thing and yes, experienced drivers can often have tips and tricks that work better than what gets issued. Personally I cannot use the aide memoirs for train length but I can see that it works for others so I support their usage. You have to have something to improve your technique and prevent any incident. The second you find it no longer works or you notice yourself not using it; STOP, think, and use a new technique.

On a side note. What a PDP ? I have never heard that term used.

 

[windnoise69]

PDP- Profesional drivers policy

 

[ComUtoR]

PDP- Profesional drivers policy

Makes sense. Cheers for that. We just say Driving Policy and have no TLA for it (thankfully) Ours has changed many times and even now the current one has been amended (verbally) on our latest briefing/LAD/Safety Day.

With the events at James Street and Hitchen as well as a few others I will follow ours to the letter. Whether I agree or not.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Makes sense. Cheers for that. We just say Driving Policy and have no TLA for it (thankfully) Ours has changed many times and even now the current one has been amended (verbally) on our latest briefing/LAD/Safety Day.

With the events at James Street and Hitchen as well as a few others I will follow ours to the letter. Whether I agree or not.

The ****storm that descends on your head from a great height and in copious buckets for the smallest of incidents -

there is a discussion on another thread about driver's wages -

my posts repeatedly removed, about how overpaid drivers are, well how many doctors kill or molest patients and are allowed to carry on working, ( google it if you don't believe me ) how many driver's have an incident and never drive again, or get stuck on the shed ?

Full compliance to your company driving policy is what has to be done, if you agree with it's ever changing facets or not, because if you don't, they'll use it to hang you, even when they change it to what you actually did the week after !

And of course we're overpaid, in spite of the above, and getting up at 0200 for weeks on end, and never seeing the kids and missing all their school stuff and never having the chance of another kid because you never get to see the missus, let alone get the chance and energy to shag her !


Also, in view of the censorship on the forum, I shall no longer post. Happy driving all ! Take care

 

[ComUtoR]

Full compliance to your company driving policy is what has to be done, if you agree with it's ever changing facets or not, because if you don't, they'll use it to hang you, even when they change it to what you actually did the week after !

It's annoying that the driving policy has taken a reactive approach for the past few iterations. I highlighted an issue with ours and I was told two different things by separate managers. One attitude was very much "if it's not on the download, your coming in the office"

I have been told specifically how to circumvent the driving policy because of the way it is checked. The download will show one thing but the reality of a certain action never takes place. (hard to explain without specifics)

In context to this thread the 20 at the magnet comes about because on a FDA/Assessment/Download you are judged on your speed over the magnet. IF I wasn't 20 at the magnet its tea and biscuits time. But; during previous investigations the Driver Managers were forced to go out and measure your speed when you were 200m from the signal rather than rely on the magnet because Drivers were incorrectly disciplined. Because of sheer laziness and the knowledge that Drivers will 100% take the easy road. 20 at the magnet is still used as a yardstick for incidents.

Its all well and good having X,Y and Z to help you deal with incident management but remember those Driving policies and be careful about what you introduce and use the in-cab equipment correctly for its intended purpose.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You can't perform 100% perfectly 100% of the time, especially when you have long early shifts or late late shifts.

Your body clock sees to that, when you get up at silly o'clock in the morning, it just throws your natural circadian rhythm (Is what I believe it's called) straight out of the window, so after 5 or 6 hours, you're naturally going to feel tired & fatigued, also the idiot train crew diagrammers don't take this into consideration. It's the same for late late shifts, your body wants to go to sleep around 2300 onwards, yet you have to fight it.

We have it where you sign on at 0400 and don't get a break for nearly 6hrs, so that means you have breakfast up 7½-8 hrs earlier and that leads to fatigue too. They give you minimum turnaround time on trains with no toilets & yet they say you should carry a bottle of water/flask with you. Yeah, but where's the drink going to go once you've drunk it? Mmm...

Do they care? Do they worry? Nah... As long as it covers the work & sticks to the guideline & the turn is legal under the negotiated parameters, they don't care one hoot!

It's when you get stuff like this, that the concentration can wane and you can bet, that on one of those days & turns, you'll get some manager will do an unannounced ride & OTMR download, where you might be a couple of mph over the prescribed 20 mph limit. It's a load of nonsense. I got warned for doing 1,8-2 mph over the 60 limit on a downhill section of plain straight line, for just 20s, never mind that I corrected it as soon as I noticed it and that I'd had to sound the horn & cancel AWS as well! :roll: