Drivers eyesight standards

[Big Jumby 74]

How could a blind person pass when they get tested whilst wearing glasses?! The best pair of glasses in the world can't make a blind man see.

Wasn't sure if I should respond to your comment, but I will do. I personally am and always have been fully on board with all aspects of safety on the railway, it was part of my job in the day. My previous post on this subject was more about being given an application form for a specific job, with references there in to visual aids, for a job where to have to rely on same would likely render any application for same null and void. Such matters should have been explained before one is invited to an interview, but in my case no such explanation was ever forthcoming. That was the gist of my previous comments. But that was then, its long since history for me, and given todays world I wouldn't want to be a driver today.
As an aside, the term 'blindness' can be misunderstood I think. In my case, with my glasses in place, I can see with 20-20 vision, as I sit here now I can see with crisp sharpness, buildings that are quarter of a mile distant and the trees way beyond them. But if I remove my glasses, I can still see same, although the detail (windows, general structure etc is blurred), but nearer to me, although there is still blurredness of detail (as in window frames etc) I can still see and make out everything in view. If I lost all my glasses tomorrow, I would still be happy to walk to my local shops, and be able to pick out items I wanted (I may have to hold them close to READ the small print etc), but I wouldn't need any assistance whatsoever.
What I would never do here at home (UK) in these circumstances, would be to get in my car and drive same, although if I was writing this from somewhere in the Ukraine at this time and my family was at risk of being killed, I could and would drive them to safety, end of. Blindness is not (necessarily) about either seeing with 20-20 vision or just seeing nothing (blackness). There are so many different aspects to sight loss, far too many to list here, and I know people who are registered blind, and one such was a colleague of mine in planning, but they managed well enough in their role back then (1980's).

I hope you don't mind me adding these comments, it's just that in later life, something I once took for granted (both good unaided sight in my youth and my own subsequent very short sightedness) has made me far more aware of the numerous issues surrounding the topic.

 

[baz962]

Hi. A friend has a medical coming up for trainee driver and despite research on here and gov.uk websites is confused re unaided eyesight requirements, as I am.
He can only read the 2 largest lines of the opticians chart WITHOUT glasses but with glasses has the vision of the bionic man.
So what line does a driver need to be able to read without glasses?
Many thanks
Regards

Your friend should be fine. I'm about the same as you describe.

 

[Stigy]

Wasn't sure if I should respond to your comment, but I will do. I personally am and always have been fully on board with all aspects of safety on the railway, it was part of my job in the day. My previous post on this subject was more about being given an application form for a specific job, with references there in to visual aids, for a job where to have to rely on same would likely render any application for same null and void. Such matters should have been explained before one is invited to an interview, but in my case no such explanation was ever forthcoming. That was the gist of my previous comments. But that was then, its long since history for me, and given todays world I wouldn't want to be a driver today.
As an aside, the term 'blindness' can be misunderstood I think. In my case, with my glasses in place, I can see with 20-20 vision, as I sit here now I can see with crisp sharpness, buildings that are quarter of a mile distant and the trees way beyond them. But if I remove my glasses, I can still see same, although the detail (windows, general structure etc is blurred), but nearer to me, although there is still blurredness of detail (as in window frames etc) I can still see and make out everything in view. If I lost all my glasses tomorrow, I would still be happy to walk to my local shops, and be able to pick out items I wanted (I may have to hold them close to READ the small print etc), but I wouldn't need any assistance whatsoever.
What I would never do here at home (UK) in these circumstances, would be to get in my car and drive same, although if I was writing this from somewhere in the Ukraine at this time and my family was at risk of being killed, I could and would drive them to safety, end of. Blindness is not (necessarily) about either seeing with 20-20 vision or just seeing nothing (blackness). There are so many different aspects to sight loss, far too many to list here, and I know people who are registered blind, and one such was a colleague of mine in planning, but they managed well enough in their role back then (1980's).

I hope you don't mind me adding these comments, it's just that in later life, something I once took for granted (both good unaided sight in my youth and my own subsequent very short sightedness) has made me far more aware of the numerous issues surrounding the topic.

That’s pretty much exactly as my eyes are. I think the main issue with your case, is that you were tested “back in the day” where there wasn’t really any guidance in place, or indeed proper testing. Almost the polar opposite to general railway recruitment in those days from what I hear? (Your old man is a driver? Can you climb in to that cab? You can? Great, start Monday).

If you were given a medical now, on the basis of what you’ve said, you’d certainly not have an issue with your eyesight meeting the minimum required standard, either corrected or uncorrected. My eyes (a bit worryingly, but I’m assured it’s quite normal) seem to deteriorate marginally between every eye test I have (I generally have one a year as I like to get my money’s worth out of healthsheild ).

 

[Estrella709]

One thing to remember is that although the standards were slightly relaxed recently (but peripheral vision was brought in), is that there are now maximum lense thicknesses allowed which I think are max +5 to max -8. Your prescription WILL be checked at a medical. I had a chat with the doctor at my last medical and he said there is currently a lot of discussion about changing this standard again as at some point they are going to lose a lot of drivers because their vision cannot be corrected within the current parameters.
I myself am in this position as one of my eyes is just under the limit, so if it deteriorates further and the standards don't change i will fail the next medical.

 

[Stigy]

One thing to remember is that although the standards were slightly relaxed recently (but peripheral vision was brought in), is that there are now maximum lense thicknesses allowed which I think are max +5 to max -8. Your prescription WILL be checked at a medical. I had a chat with the doctor at my last medical and he said there is currently a lot of discussion about changing this standard again as at some point they are going to lose a lot of drivers because their vision cannot be corrected within the current parameters.
I myself am in this position as one of my eyes is just under the limit, so if it deteriorates further and the standards don't change i will fail the next medical.

It’s not correct to say your prescription WILL be checked. I’ve never had one checked and have worked for two TOCs. Again, it’s guidance rather than set in stone policy as far as I’m aware. I have heard there are certain prescription limitations, but but your example, I shouldn’t be driving because my prescription falls outside those parameters.

 

[Estrella709]

Are you a driver as I find that hard to believe.
It is not guidance, it is the current standard which was brought in for the European licence. At the last 2 medicals i had, one of which was as a new entrant as i changed companies , I had to show my prescription and it stipulated in the appointment letter that it must be taken to the medical, where it was checked. I know someone who forgot to take it to a medical with them and their appointment was cancelled. I also know of someone at my company who has failed the test as a current driver as their lense prescription is outside the limits and is currently off trains waiting to see if they will allow corrective surgery of which some companies do and some companies don't.

 

[Stigy]

Are you a driver as I find that hard to believe.
It is not guidance, it is the current standard which was brought in for the European licence. At the last 2 medicals i had, one of which was as a new entrant as i changed companies , I had to show my prescription and it stipulated in the appointment letter that it must be taken to the medical, where it was checked. I know someone who forgot to take it to a medical with them and their appointment was cancelled. I also know of someone at my company who has failed the test as a current driver as their lense prescription is outside the limits and is currently off trains waiting to see if they will allow corrective surgery of which some companies do and some companies don't.

Yes, I am a driver. You can find it as hard to believe as you like, it is what it is. I had my most recent medical the week before last as it goes, and my prescription wasn’t even mentioned. So either it’s guidance, my two TOCs haven’t been acting within the policies set down by the ORR, or I’m lying. I’d like to think the last one wouldn’t even enter the thoughts of most members here, since I’m well established.

This is the railway, and nothing is black and white, or particularly consistent most of the time.

 

[Estrella709]

Seems like its your company at fault, its specifically mentioned here..

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-12/tdl-guide-to-medical-and-occupational-psychological-fitness-requirements-for-train-drivers.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjd19jlheL2AhXFiVwKHbpWB0IQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0RmiEHHjJ_xwzOm4niB_oy

 

[Stigy]

Seems like its your company at fault, its specifically mentioned here..

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-12/tdl-guide-to-medical-and-occupational-psychological-fitness-requirements-for-train-drivers.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjd19jlheL2AhXFiVwKHbpWB0IQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0RmiEHHjJ_xwzOm4niB_oy

Unless I’m missing it in more detail, it’s still quite wishy washy. It said the test should include lens strength, which could be determined without seeing a physical prescription, by way of judging your distance acuity uncorrected, Vs distance acuity corrected?

If it is in black and white and I’m missing it, fair enough, but as I said, the railway is hardly consistent at the best of times. I’ve worked in the industry for 16 years and have yet to witness any real uniformity

 

[Estrella709]

Its black and white. If you haven't been asked at a very recent medical for your prescription, they are not carrying out the medical properly.

Unless I’m missing it in more detail, it’s still quite wishy washy. It said the test should include lens strength, which could be determined without seeing a physical prescription, by way of judging your distance acuity uncorrected, Vs distance acuity corrected?

If it is in black and white and I’m missing it, fair enough, but as I said, the railway is hardly consistent at the best of times. I’ve worked in the industry for 16 years and have yet to witness any real uniformity

 

[Stigy]

Its black and white. If you haven't been asked at a very recent medical for your prescription, they are not carrying out the medical properly.

Seems very black and white to me!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2022 ==

Its black and white. If you haven't been asked at a very recent medical for your prescription, they are not carrying out the medical properly.

Seems very black and white to me!

Did you read any of what I posted, or just pick out stuff to suit? It’s far from clear, and if that’s all that is included in the document, that doesn’t definitively stipulate that they MUST see your prescription.

 

[Horizon22]

Its black and white. If you haven't been asked at a very recent medical for your prescription, they are not carrying out the medical properly.

Seems very black and white to me!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2022 ==

Its black and white. If you haven't been asked at a very recent medical for your prescription, they are not carrying out the medical properly.

Seems very black and white to me!

I am not aware of things changing like this at medicals; because that is why you do the vision test aided & unaided. Prescriptions have not been generally asked - when are you suggesting this change has come in because others have evidence to the contrary.

To all, can we please keep the comments civil regardless of disagreements.

 

[ComUtoR]

.... because others have evidence to the contrary.

Or evidence to support.

 

[Horizon22]

Or evidence to support.

Thanks - what is the original source of that? The ORR document doesn't seem to show the same.

 

[Estrella709]

Ok. As this is degenerating into the usual wall pi $$ing contest, I will repeat word for word the relevant part.

From the ORR document dated 16.12.21 that i posted above

P11,
2.4 Under TDLCR Schedule 1 the pre-appointment medical exam must (note MUST) include as a minimum the following elements:

- A "general" medical exam
- Vision (including distance acuity, CORRECTIVE LENS STRENGTH and colour perception.

(Its the same wording a bit further down for existing drivers)


The last 2 medicals i had , one of which was a new starter as i changed companies specifically stated in the medical appointment letter that you MUST take your current glasses prescription with you.
So it would seem your companies medical provider is not conducting valid medicals.
On that note i'm out.

 

[ComUtoR]

Thanks - what is the original source of that? The ORR document doesn't seem to show the same.

Taken directly from legislation.gov.uk

It's in the schedule 1 document.

 

[Stigy]

RSSB

The above is more specific (part 2), and outlines the uncorrected standard. This standard is set extremely low though (otherwise I for one would struggle). I don’t think this has been shared in this thread, but if it has, apologies.

 

[Andypandy1968]

RSSB

The above is more specific (part 2), and outlines the uncorrected standard. This standard is set extremely low though (otherwise I for one would struggle). I don’t think this has been shared in this thread, but if it has, apologies.

Is a train drivers medical every 5 years for under 55s then? I thought the EU bureaucrats decided it was 3 years? And yes I know we have left but we still seem to be dancing to their tune!

 

[Stigy]

Is a train drivers medical every 5 years for under 55s then? I thought the EU bureaucrats decided it was 3 years? And yes I know we have left but we still seem to be dancing to their tune!

It’s every 3 years for under 40s, and every year over 40 I was led to believe. Then, as I said, it’s hardly consistent so I wouldn’t be surprised if the requirement was for 5 years, but TOCs/FOCs can do what they want within that framework.

 

[Andypandy1968]

It’s every 3 years for under 40s, and every year over 40 I was led to believe. Then, as I said, it’s hardly consistent so I wouldn’t be surprised if the requirement was for 5 years, but TOCs/FOCs can do what they want within that framework.

Not quite! It's not yearly until you get to 63.

 

[Stigy]

Not quite! It's not yearly until you get to 63.

I must be mistaken then….what is it after 40? My last medical was for an under 40s medical…he made a point of saying I just got in in time because I’m 39, I was sure that was because it went yearly?

 

[ComUtoR]

Every 3yrs if under 55, yearly afterwards.

Post 40 you need an ECG each time.

 

[Stigy]

Every 3yrs if under 55, yearly afterwards.

Post 40 you need an ECG each time.

That’s probably what they were referring to then. We spoke about it as I had one on my pre employment medical as usual the norm.

 

[Andypandy1968]

Every 3yrs if under 55, yearly afterwards.

Post 40 you need an ECG each time.

Every 2 years between 56 and 62 according to that RSSB link above.

 

[ComUtoR]

Every 2 years between 56 and 62 according to that RSSB link above.

Its both. (kinda)

New train drivers from 29 October 2013 or existing drivers applying for a driving licence - Frequency of medical examinations

Is clearly stated throughout the document. When the regulations were introduced it would have allowed anyone with an existing licence to remain on the old schedule and then transition to the EU licence over time. My previous licence started before 2013 but then expired. My new licence was renewed and I have the new EU one with the counterfoil. I don't remember how long the old licences were valid for but the EU one is valid for 10yrs. Nobody at my TOC has the old style licence. I don't know exactly when they were first issued but no doubt someone, somewhere will still have the old licence.

 

[Andypandy1968]

Its both. (kinda)



Is clearly stated throughout the document. When the regulations were introduced it would have allowed anyone with an existing licence to remain on the old schedule and then transition to the EU licence over time. My previous licence started before 2013 but then expired. My new licence was renewed and I have the new EU one with the counterfoil. I don't remember how long the old licences were valid for but the EU one is valid for 10yrs. Nobody at my TOC has the old style licence. I don't know exactly when they were first issued but no doubt someone, somewhere will still have the old licence.

So when is the uk going to adopt its own licence instead of being tied to the eu one?

 

[ComUtoR]

What's wrong with it ? Other than having the letters EU on it ? An educated guess would be that the current legislation would simply become UK law and a new licence will be designed and issued. Probably in red, white and blue to make people happy.

 

[PupCuff]

So when is the uk going to adopt its own licence instead of being tied to the eu one?

It hasn't been an EU licence since the end of the Brexit transition period. Existing issued Train Driver Licenses will still have EU references on them but like car drivers licences and passports etc they're not going to renew them all early to remove EU insignia.

The government could change the legislation now if they wanted to and put different requirements in to the adopted EU ones, though I can't imagine this has been too high a priority with coronavirus and whatnot.

 

[Andypandy1968]

What's wrong with it ? Other than having the letters EU on it ? An educated guess would be that the current legislation would simply become UK law and a new licence will be designed and issued. Probably in red, white and blue to make people happy.

Still bitter after all these years I see, you do need to get over it.
What's wrong with it is nothing to do with how it looks and all to do with still living with EU regulations. A medical every 3 years is EU legislation, before that it was 5 yearly.

 

[ComUtoR]

Still bitter after all these years I see, you do need to get over it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHlolEEHEHEHEHEHE Me Bitter ? That's the funniest thing I've heard this morning. I think you read my post wrong...

What's wrong with it is nothing to do with how it looks and all to do with still living with EU regulations. A medical every 3 years is EU legislation, before that it was 5 yearly.

Is your entire beef with the EU licence the fact that the medical is at a 3yr interval rather than a 5yr one ? What about licence ownership and the introduction of the counterfoil ? You realise that very little changed when the railway switched over. I'll reiterate clearer. What's wrong with the EU regulation and what would you see changed for a 'UK' version ?