Driver told to move on

[Teapot42]

Had a bit of an odd one yesterday afternoon.

Our local service is a loop out from town, and in the middle of the loop there is a timetabled wait of typically 2 minutes, but up to 12. The timetable is also very loose as at certain times congestion can cause delays.

Yesterday, the bus got to the timing point with about 5 minutes to wait. Almost as soon as he'd stopped, someone came out from a house and pretty much ordered him to move the bus on. I think their complaint was that he was keeping the engine running - as he pointed out, it was sub-zero, so the engine was the only source of warmth in the bus!

I think to avoid an argument he moved on to the next stop and waited there, but I wonder what the 'correct' think to have done here was? In theory he left the origin and a timing point nearly 5 minutes early, which doesn't seem the right thing to do, but also is unlikely to cause and issue as this stop is seldom used.

Are drivers obliged to turn the engine off in cases like this, especially in cold weather where it's harder to restart.

There is actually wider context here, as I personally don't believe this is a good place to have a service laying over. It's a 40mph road on a bend so not the best visibility to overtake the bus. It's also a bus stop, not a stand. A few stops further on is a bus stand where the bus can get out of the flow of traffic completely, plus is on a 30mph road so less risk. It also means more of the 'unique' part of the loop is covered, so fewer passengers need to wait for the bus to lay over - especially a problem for those longer layovers.

As an aside, the longer layovers really don't make sense to me. It would seem more useful to leave town 10 minutes later, giving more connection opportunities and more margin for late running feeder services.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

My late father-in-law was an inspector with Glasgow Corporation Transport and where he lived the terminus for one of the services was right outside his door.

He was forever going out and telling the drivers to shut off their engine. Granted, this was in the 80s when exhaust systems did very little to muffle the noise, but engine noise nowadays is vastly reduced from then.

I think the complainer was probably unused to having buses stop outside his/her house. If, as you said, the stop is seldom used, the driver just applied common sense and moved a short distance away. His company would probably have disciplined him for running early if the complaint reached them.

 

[mayneway]

Couple things here. Pretty poor he allowed himself to become 5 Minutes early. If he’s a regular driver of the service, pulling in at bus stops up to the timing point and waiting a minute spaces things out, so there’s no long dwell time.

When I drove at Go North West, some of the residents of Cadishead estate used to complain about buses sat at the turning circle with the engine idling.

Same issue up on Hattersley at the turning circle at the end of the 201 service, elderly gentlemen there would complain daily to stagecoach about buses being left to idle for long periods of time so it’s fairly common.

I wouldn’t have moved on if some randomer told me too.

 

[Teapot42]

Couple things here. Pretty poor he allowed himself to become 5 Minutes early. If he’s a regular driver of the service pulling in at bus stops up to the timing point and waiting a minute spaces things out so there’s no long dwell time.

Not really, you need to know the service to understand though. He was driving really quite slowly, there just weren't any passengers to get on and not many getting off. Two minutes of those 5 were built in - he arrived 3 early to the stop in effect, and the stop prior is similar to this one and very rarely used anyway. It's one of those awkward services where around 66% of trips could have about a third of the running time chopped off, while 25% actually need more.

I wouldn’t have moved on if some randomer told me too.

For context, they weren't outside the front door, the houses here are on the other side of the road with a wide verge and decent gardens. It's a decent area, so I suspect someone recently moved in considers themselves a bit of a Hyacinth Bucket and doesn't want common buses cluttering up the view from her window.

 

[mayneway]

Not really, you need to know the service to understand though. He was driving really quite slowly, there just weren't any passengers to get on and not many getting off. Two minutes of those 5 were built in - he arrived 3 early to the stop in effect, and the stop prior is similar to this one and very rarely used anyway. It's one of those awkward services where around 66% of trips could have about a third of the running time chopped off, while 25% actually need more.

Most services are like that, some trips have too much time and the trips where you need more time you actually get less or get it at the end.
I drive In and out of Manchester City centre and 90% of the time we don’t get much time but I’ve found with the shoulder days between Christmas and new year I was getting like 5 minutes at each timing point so simply slowed things down rather than sitting at the timing point as it’s frustrating for passengers.
Everyone is different and does in different ways I suppose.

But in answer to your original question about leaving the timing point early, if it flags up all the driver has to say is the stop was blocked and It wasn’t safe to stop so waited at the next stop.

Often when a timing point is closed because of road works, for example we are told to wait at the stop before or after.

 

[bramling]

Not really, you need to know the service to understand though. He was driving really quite slowly, there just weren't any passengers to get on and not many getting off. Two minutes of those 5 were built in - he arrived 3 early to the stop in effect, and the stop prior is similar to this one and very rarely used anyway. It's one of those awkward services where around 66% of trips could have about a third of the running time chopped off, while 25% actually need more.


For context, they weren't outside the front door, the houses here are on the other side of the road with a wide verge and decent gardens. It's a decent area, so I suspect someone recently moved in considers themselves a bit of a Hyacinth Bucket and doesn't want common buses cluttering up the view from her window.

To be fair, a bus with a diesel engine running outside a house is likely to require invasive, especially if the wind is blowing fumes towards the house. I’d regard this as a reasonable issue to be annoyed about.

In the same way it’s rather unreasonable to warm up a car outside someone‘s house in winter time.

 

[mmh]

To be fair, a bus with a diesel engine running outside a house is likely to require invasive, especially if the wind is blowing fumes towards the house. I’d regard this as a reasonable issue to be annoyed about.

In the same way it’s rather unreasonable to warm up a car outside someone‘s house in winter time.

In the real world countless cars will be "warmed up" outside houses tomorrow while the drivers wait for the windscreens to demist, and nobody will bat an eyelid.

 

[Simon75]

To be fair, a bus with a diesel engine running outside a house is likely to require invasive, especially if the wind is blowing fumes towards the house. I’d regard this as a reasonable issue to be annoyed about.

In the same way it’s rather unreasonable to warm up a car outside someone‘s house in winter time.

Plenty of streets with terrace houses,which back on the Street , with bus stops outside

 

[Spsf3232]

Best thing to do in this instance is tell the person to take it up with the company, close the door and ignore them. I'm not turning the engine off in extremely cold weather and I'm also not leaving a timing point early. Your not going to be there that long.

If you have 10+ minutes it may be possible to leave and return in some instances but any less I would just wait and ignore any people like that.

 

[Ballyheigue]

There is the stupid situation on a Saturday morning on the 24 route in Leeds where one journey is regularly timed to wait up to 30 minutes at the terminus bus stop before commencing its next journey. Quite often it waits outside the houses instead of the turning circle, there are some other lengthy waits too for many other journeys, but these waits are not as bad.

Residents on Town Street and regulars who drive along Town Street are often rightly annoyed that a bus blocks the road instead of moving on to the turning circle out of the way, but apparently this isn't a legal requirement!

 

[M60lad]

Here in Manchester since Bee Network took over from what I've been told TfGM are pretty hot on timing points to the fact that in theory you can't leave a timing point early, in the past companies used to let drivers leave the timing point once the clock starting counting down on the ticketers. So in theory if anybody was to come out and ask the driver to move I doubt that they can as questions would be asked why they left the timing point early.

As for the shoulder days over Christmas I'd love to know who came up with the timings for them as some routes were getting more time on them that was needed and they actually got given on normal days for example 19:10 182 out of Manchester usually gets 12 minutes to get to Newton Heath but over Christmas this journey was leaving at 19:15 and got a full 15mins to get to Newton Heath so was waiting at Newton Heath sometimes for about 5mins or more.

 

[Jonathan Lynch]

My local service is 140 East coast buses. This has a terminal lay over on a Sunday 2 stops into the return journey in roslin as there is a layby 2 stops in. I take it the company plan this as a safe point rather than any regulations if the above is allowed.

 

[Acathater]

But isn't standing with the engine idling illegal anyway?

 

[Astradyne]

Legally a bus is only permitted to wait at a bus stop for 3 minutes, unless passengers are still boarding. Up to 3 minutes at a bus stop you are stopped do can can idle. Over 3 minutes, you should be at a bus stand with your engine off.

 

[chesterred16]

I assume modern buses have stop/start technology - all the ones our way do anyway. If the engine doesn't shut itself down, then it's doing that for a reason and I wouldn't expect the driver to shut it down. Call control and ask for their advice, to cover yourself in case someone else complains it's run early.

 

[Acathater]

I assume modern buses have stop/start technology - all the ones our way do anyway.

Most of the ones round here have it linked to the door opening, so if they stay closed the engine stays on.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I drive In and out of Manchester City centre and 90% of the time we don’t get much time but I’ve found with the shoulder days between Christmas and new year I was getting like 5 minutes at each timing point so simply slowed things down rather than sitting at the timing point as it’s frustrating for passengers.

Being somewhat unaccustomed to the local depot patois, what are the "shoulder days" that I have emboldened above?

 

[ricoblade]

Most of the ones round here have it linked to the door opening, so if they stay closed the engine stays on.

Ah thanks. I noticed this on Saturday on the SCEM 25 from Bawtry to Worksop. We stopped multiple times as I assumed we were early at each stop and the driver opened the doors for no apparent reason (to me at the time) several times.

 

[N1]

Although widely ignored by bus operators, buses are only allowed to wait at Bus Stops for a maximum of 2 minutes (Schedule 19 of the The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002). Waiting to time beyond two minutes is only permitted legally in Bus Stands. However, as local highway authorities just make everything Bus Stops except in some city centres, meaning that it is pretty much impossible for a bus company to comply with this.

 

[GDKEnts]

Some drivers don't let start stop tech operate and will sit and rev which really annoys me.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How does this thread matter cover the 15-minute journey break at a bus stop in the Wigan area, announced by the driver to the passengers on the Wigan to Bolton bus that I was recently after driving for ten minutes

 

[computerSaysNo]

Although widely ignored by bus operators, buses are only allowed to wait at Bus Stops for a maximum of 2 minutes (Schedule 19 of the The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002). Waiting to time beyond two minutes is only permitted legally in Bus Stands. However, as local highway authorities just make everything Bus Stops except in some city centres, meaning that it is pretty much impossible for a bus company to comply with this.

Doesn't this conflict with the regulations prohibiting the early departure from timing points?

 

[mayneway]

Being somewhat unaccustomed to the local depot patois, what are the "shoulder days" that I have emboldened above?

Shoulder days is the term given to the period between Christmas and new year where schedules and timetables usually differ massively from what they would normally be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==

Doesn't this conflict with the regulations prohibiting the early departure from timing points?

No because operators and local transport authorities *should* be planning timing points to be at stands or bus lay-bys only rather than actual on street stops where they are blocking the flow of traffic.

Many years ago at queens road under Go North West we got a new scheduler who actually consulted with drivers over timing points and many were successfully moved from on road stops to lay-bys where it was a lot safer to stop without holding up traffic.
Once the depot came under the control of TFGM and the mighty Bee Network those timing points were moved back to where they were blocking roads etc.

I drive around 7 or 8 routes regularly so know where the bad timing points are so will often wait at the stop before if it’s safer but in many cases it’s annoyingly a lay by at the stop before anyway. This is what happens when planning and schedules is done by someone who’s never driven a bus!

 

[N1]

Doesn't this conflict with the regulations prohibiting the early departure from timing points?

Yes, pretty much. The regulations make sense from the point of view that bus companies shouldn't unnecessarily block bus stops (may prevent another operators bus from stopping), and that a Bus Stand is where timing points requiring more than 2 minutes wait should be. Obviously that doesn't work in reality. In many city centre traffic regulation orders also dispense with the 2 minutes wait and buses must depart immediately (again, to keep limited bus stops clear for other buses).

 

[JKP]

Shoulder days is the term given to the period between Christmas and new year where schedules and timetables usually differ massively from what they would normally be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2026 ==


No because operators and local transport authorities *should* be planning timing points to be at stands or bus lay-bys only rather than actual on street stops where they are blocking the flow of traffic.

Many years ago at queens road under Go North West we got a new scheduler who actually consulted with drivers over timing points and many were successfully moved from on road stops to lay-bys where it was a lot safer to stop without holding up traffic.
Once the depot came under the control of TFGM and the mighty Bee Network those timing points were moved back to where they were blocking roads etc.

I drive around 7 or 8 routes regularly so know where the bad timing points are so will often wait at the stop before if it’s safer but in many cases it’s annoyingly a lay by at the stop before anyway. This is what happens when planning and schedules is done by someone who’s never driven a bus!

IIRC bus timing points should be every 15 minutes or less according to regulations set by the Traffic Commissioner. I can think of plenty of examples where there are bus routes where there are no bus lay bys or stances/stands at or below 15 minutes scheduled running time.

 

[Chutters 73]

Aaaah. The ‘gentleman’ in the end house on John F Kennedy drive on the 201 is very well known, and is the reason behind the sign saying ‘turn the engine off’ at the turnaround. First thing on a winter morning you can find yourself in a queue of 3 or more buses with no obvious sign of who’s first off. I used to park near the petrol station on the main road until the last second. However, if I was on the circle, no-one would dare approach me and ask me to move. I’d be busy smoking.

Plenty of estates where the bus is more of a nuisance - e.g. the 15 terminus at about 3:15pm can have a queue of buses on a narrow strip. The 255 vs bin truck at the shops in Partington I’d say is mega annoying causing the bus to go round the circle a few times with associated engine on/off plus bin truck BEEPING while I’m trying to SMOKE.

The 67 turnaround had a gas leak next to the bus stop which made the locals interested in my diesel engines tick-over times. As smoking next to a gas leak is quite silly, I’d park just along the road for 4ish minutes until ready to go.

Some are joyous. 202. 205. 52 in Failsworth. 93. Joy.

With respect to timing points. It’s not a bad driver who finds an unexpected 10 mins - maybe they just want to let their head cool down before/after a school run. Or a rush hour rush where he hasn’t stopped rushing yet. Early in lockdown, I brought a 255 into Stretford 14 minutes early. I’d waited at Trafford Bar for about 6 minutes. The handful of passengers were very grumpy. I said I could almost see the bus in front and I’d be smoking so unable to listen to them properly. I’d have said the same to anyone who asked me to run the bus early (which could cost me my job, or at least an awkward telling off).

 

[Teapot42]

Although widely ignored by bus operators, buses are only allowed to wait at Bus Stops for a maximum of 2 minutes (Schedule 19 of the The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002). Waiting to time beyond two minutes is only permitted legally in Bus Stands. However, as local highway authorities just make everything Bus Stops except in some city centres, meaning that it is pretty much impossible for a bus company to comply with this.

This is part of my argument why the timing point on this service should be moved a few stops further on to where there is a bus stand.

Local to here they put a cycle lane in and converted two bus stands (on a busy main road) to bus stops. I highlighted this during the planning stage and asked if they'd consulted the operators about this. They claimed they had, but when I mentioned it to someone at the operator it turned out they actually hadn't. A few times early in the morning you get a bus waiting time in both directions and not much of an offset in the stops, leading to a bottleneck.

 

[KHCT]

One local council near me went mad during covid and installed cycle lanes everywhere, which are mostly ignored by cyclists, but that's another story! As part of the works, many bus stop lay-bys were removed so a cycle lane could be built alongside the pavement behind the bus stop. This was sold as 'helping' buses by meaning they no longer had to pull back in to traffic, but at a number of timing points we now have buses waiting for time and blocking traffic as a result, causing more congestion. Progress, eh?

 

[redgate]

So rude that, we have a timing point outside our house (which is incredibly useful) would never dream of storming out and demanding they move. The opposite if anything: offered one of the fitters a brew once when he was sat with a very broken bus waiting for it to be towed back to the depot!

 

[johncrossley]

This problem can be resolved by using electric buses.