Driver questions - anything you'd like to ask

[LilLoaf]

Is there certain amount of hours driver can be on duty ?

 

[mbonwick]

Yep. I've no idea what they are though...

 

[GWRtom]

I think's it's 12

 

[Muttley]

Is there certain amount of hours driver can be on duty ?

It varies between companies due to union agreements. Generally somewhere between a diagrammed length of 9.5 - 11 hours.

 

[Phoenix]

Okay I have a few questions aswelll which I have always been wondering about.

1.Do any of you find driving at night a little less easier than in the day because of well you cannot see much infront of you so may be a little scary or even just harder to spot certain things like speed limit signs?????

2.This is a slightly silly question but how many birds do you hit on an average year??????

3.If you have ever hit a bird what is your reaction??????

4.What is the best thing you have had pass you (just out of curiousity)?????

Cheers

 

[ungreat]

I can only assume that this "one pan only" thing only applies at speeds over 100mph otherwise EMU's wouldn't be able to run in multiple at up to this speed with more than one pan raised, and these trains certainly don't have the facilty for a 25kV bus.

I believe that the 140mph capability on the ECML was only ever tested but never used in service. While an IC225 set is cleared to operate at these speeds, the signal block lengths along the East Coast route are sufficient only for a maximum linespeed of 125mph, and even then it's not possible to go that fast along the entire route. To run any faster would require either an increase in the signal block lengths (reducing line capacity) or a fifth signal aspect of some sort to give the extra space between flat chat and a red.

Can't check your maths about the speed at which a person would be at risk of being dragged under a train, but I would guess that it would depend on a number of other variables. For example, Cl317 doing the ton would likely produce more turbulence than an HST at the same speed because it has a vertical front rather than a more aerodynamic wedge.

O L Leigh

There are no 140mph sections on the ECML at all...it was indeed just for testing that the 91's were allowed to do it.The "fifth aspect" that keeps being mentioned was a flashing green aspect,which is still used now north of Peterborough(I think).It was originally the signal for 140mph running but is simply used now to add an extra block section to the route,nothing more.

The one pantograph thing is nothing more than power usage.On the ECML extra neutral sections were added to break up the feeder stations supply into smaller sections,because if you have over a certain amount of electric trains in one feeder stations area,then power problems can arise.We (FCC) run a twelve coach 365 service with all 3 pans raised every weekday.(1807 ex Kings Cross) and GNER used to use the spare Eurostar sets they leased a few years back with both pans up at 125mph.Its power usage,nothing more.

Train drivers work days of shift lengths between 6 and 12 hours,depending on TOC/FOC they work for.Ours is 6-10 hours,a usual shift being around 8hrs 45 mins

 

[O L Leigh]

Is there certain amount of hours driver can be on duty ?

The maximum permitted in any shift is 12 hours.

Following the Clapham Junction crash, strict rules governing working hours were applied to rail staff in safety critical roles such as drivers and signallers. These became known as the "Hidden Rules" after the person who chaired the investigation into the Clapham crash.

Basically you can't work more than 12 hours in any shift. You are also not permitted to work more than 13 days straight and must have at least 12 hours rest between safety critical turns (8 hours for non-safety critical).

1.Do any of you find driving at night a little less easier than in the day because of well you cannot see much infront of you so may be a little scary or even just harder to spot certain things like speed limit signs?????

Not easier or harder, but different. Not being able to see so much around does cut down on the number of potential distractions, so it can be easier in that respect. Then again, a colour light signal does not have a dimmer setting which means that it is dazzlingly bright when night falls. Likewise, certain stock have seriously bright headlights that can also dazzle you.

Modern signs on the railway are reflective anyway, so should be easy enough to spot. However, you don't actually need to see them because your route knowledge tells you where the speed changes and to what without you actually having to see the boards.

2.This is a slightly silly question but how many birds do you hit on an average year??????

No idea.

It will depend largely on the type of trips you do. You'd be lucky to hit one if you're just rattling up and down to Chingford or Enfield and yet you might clobber half a dozen along the Cambridge road. Some weeks I'll hit none at all and yet I might get a brace in a single trip.

3.If you have ever hit a bird what is your reaction??????

A loud cheer...!!! :grin:

Depends where it hits, but they can make you jump. If they hit below the solebar it's normally just a soft thud. Hit one in the centre of the gangway door at 80mph and it will make a seriously loud bang. It also depends on how big the bird is. You might not notice you've hit a sparrow but you'll certainly know all about it if you are unlucky enough to collect a goose or even a swan.

I've had a couple of pigeons strike just near the cab vent intake on the front of a Mk1 Cl317 and had a little sad puff of feathers come up through the "eyeball vent" at the base of the windscreen.

4.What is the best thing you have had pass you (just out of curiousity)?????

2 x Cl73's on a short train of bogie flats. Not desperately strange in some locations, but mighty odd at Bishops Stortford.

The one pantograph thing is nothing more than power usage. On the ECML extra neutral sections were added to break up the feeder stations supply into smaller sections, because if you have over a certain amount of electric trains in one feeder stations area, then power problems can arise. We (FCC) run a twelve coach 365 service with all 3 pans raised every weekday (1807 ex Kings Cross) and GNER used to use the spare Eurostar sets they leased a few years back with both pans up at 125mph. Its power usage, nothing more.

No, I think it is more than that. I've definately read somewhere that a high speed service could not operate with more than one pan raised because the disturbance caused to the OLE by the passage of the leading pan would not have had chance to dissipate before the second pan came along, meaning there was an unacceptably high risk of damage to the OLE and/or pan, and even of a dewirement. Then again, I think the powers-that-be might have been playing things a bit safe because I don't think they'd actually carried out much real research into the matter.

The Eurostars were always a bit odd because the safety rules for the Chunnel did not permit any bus cables. Therefore, each half-set has to operate independently of the other. In effect, they are two EMU's operating in multiple rather than a single train. However, the pans on a Eurostar are probably sufficiently far enough apart for OLE sway not to be too much of an issue and are of a more advanced and robust design than is used on domestic electric stock.

I know that the Eurostars did cause you some problems on the ECML, though. We had a GN instructor giving us our basic traction training at Hornsey (Cl317's) who told us of a brake handling trip that he took out from Peterborough. Apparently, this Cl317 had been faultless for the entire trip down but was gutless on the way back. He'd just arranged with the signaller to carry out a fault-finding stop at Huntingdon when a GNER Eurostar went tanking past them on the fast line. As soon as it was through the next neutral section all the power returned.

O L Leigh

 

[Broken Viking]

Hail All!

There are no 140mph sections on the ECML at all...it was indeed just for testing that the 91's were allowed to do it.

In my own opinion, they really ought to investigate upping the speed limits on the WCML as soon as possible. After all, the line itself is relatively straight (Aside from a few trouble-spots like York) and long enough to allow half-decent, high-speed operation IMO. 8)

I'm of the general mindset that I could safely get an APT up the WCML at a roundabout maximum speed of 195mph or so. Transferring the same safety limits onto the ECML, I'd say that my roundabout maximum speed there in the same type of train would easily be close to 300-350mph!

The one pantograph thing is nothing more than power usage.On the ECML extra neutral sections were added to break up the feeder stations supply into smaller sections,because if you have over a certain amount of electric trains in one feeder stations area,then power problems can arise.We (FCC) run a twelve coach 365 service with all 3 pans raised every weekday.(1807 ex Kings Cross) and GNER used to use the spare Eurostar sets they leased a few years back with both pans up at 125mph.Its power usage,nothing more.

No, I think it is more than that. I've definately read somewhere that a high speed service could not operate with more than one pan raised because the disturbance caused to the OLE by the passage of the leading pan would not have had chance to dissipate before the second pan came along, meaning there was an unacceptably high risk of damage to the OLE and/or pan, and even of a dewirement. Then again, I think the powers-that-be might have been playing things a bit safe because I don't think they'd actually carried out much real research into the matter.

My limited information about multiple pantograph usage comes from a statement in O.S. Nock's Two Miles a Minute; Hinted at the start of Chapter 10 on page 95 and explained in detail elsewhere in the book.

As far as I know, multiple pantographs can work in the following conditions:

1. On trains averaging less than 115mph, multiple pantographs may be raised anywhere along the length of the train. At these very low speeds, the eddy formed in the catenery is negligable and does not significantly affect current collection.
2. On trains averaging 120mph and over, multiple pantographs need to be located in close succession for all of them to work efficiently - Ideally, with all raised pantographs located on the same or adjacent cars.
   I believe this arrangement is used for current collection by the 500-Series Shinkansen on Nozomi runs to allow higher train speeds.

So basically: This means that a 12-car Silverlink 350 running at about 100mph can travel with all three pantographs raised without problems...But trying to run a high-powered IC-225 with two power cars each using it's own pantograph wouldn't work due to eddies formed in the catenery by the leading pantograph. 8)
(Of course I'm no expert in the area of railway electrical stuff, so this list is non-authoriative. )

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[O L Leigh]

Hail All! In my own opinion, they really ought to investigate upping the speed limits on the WCML as soon as possible. After all, the line itself is relatively straight (Aside from a few trouble-spots like York) and long enough to allow half-decent, high-speed operation IMO. 8)

I'm of the general mindset that I could safely get an APT up the WCML at a roundabout maximum speed of 195mph or so. Transferring the same safety limits onto the ECML, I'd say that my roundabout maximum speed there in the same type of train would easily be close to 300-350mph!

Whilst respecting your opinion, you're living in cloud-cuckoo land with those speeds.

The only way you're going to get anywhere near to achieving them is to have a seperate line built to TGV-standards with in-cab "moving block" signalling. The French may well have got a TGV to exceed 300mph a little while back, but they only managed that because the train had been specially prepared and had all the trailers removed from the formation, and was running on a closed section of line well away from any other train in case it all went horribly wrong. You'd never be able to replicate this in service.

O L Leigh

 

[Craig]

No, I think it is more than that. I've definately read somewhere that a high speed service could not operate with more than one pan raised because the disturbance caused to the OLE by the passage of the leading pan would not have had chance to dissipate before the second pan came along, meaning there was an unacceptably high risk of damage to the OLE and/or pan, and even of a dewirement. Then again, I think the powers-that-be might have been playing things a bit safe because I don't think they'd actually carried out much real research into the matter.

I vaguely remember reading something that said it was because the ECML has some fairly steep changes in the heigh of the OLE, particularly around level crossings. IIRC the Eurostars were limited to 110mph when running up to York/Leeds?

 

[support-uk-rail]

AFAIK? What does this mean? I could only figure out:

As Far As I Know
And For All I Know
A Further Answer Is (K?)

??? (Not really a driver question, sorry)

 

[Broken Viking]

Hail all!

Whilst respecting your opinion, you're living in cloud-cuckoo land with those speeds.

True, true...But give me a 370 at Euston and a cleared line all the way to Manchester Piccadilly (Or further! ) and I'd do my level best to get as close to those speeds as possible...
(I'd presume that speed-freaks like me are banned from driving jobs on the railways though...Aye? ad::cry

The only way you're going to get anywhere near to achieving them is to have a seperate line built to TGV-standards with in-cab "moving block" signalling.

I've always thought - Given that existing signalling is arranged in "blocks" designed for traditional loco-hauled trains doing 100mph - That linking successive blocks together in the signalling system would allow higher speeds to be attained, as the block length would effectively double every time it was done. 8)

As an example of what I'm trying to say:
Take a hypothetical stretch of line, 100 miles long, arranged in 10 mile blocks, and controlled by signals HYS 1 to 10. Normally, a train would be instructed by each individual signal in sequence...So the driver of that train would respond to HYS 1, HYS 2, HYS 3 and so on.
Linking sets of signals would allow for double or greater length blocks, so doubling up the blocks in this case would mean that each paired set of signals would display the closest aspect to danger that exists throughout that paired-up stretch of line and would allow a theoretical maximum of 150mph. Therefore the driver of the train would be instructed by HYS 1 (Echoing HYS 2), HYS 3 (Echoing HYS 4) HYS 5 (Echoing HYS 6) and so on.

Assuming that twenty consecutive blocks exist on a normal stretch of high-speed line and are spaced for a nominal 100mph as per BR standards, linking them up in various formations would give the following theoretical speed limits:

• 1 signal per block = 20 blocks = 100mph,
• 2 signals per block = 10 blocks = 150mph,
• 4 signals per block = 5 blocks = 200mph,
• 8 signals per block = 2.5 blocks = 300mph,
• 16 signals per block = 1.25 blocks = 400mph

Thus...In a purely theoretical sense (Bearing in mind that my knowlege of signalling requirements and spacing is base at best! hock Linking consecutive sections of signals together and having them displaying the most negative (Closest to danger) aspect for that relevant section could easily allow much higher speeds to be attained safely on existing infrastructure!

The French may well have got a TGV to exceed 300mph a little while back, but they only managed that because the train had been specially prepared and had all the trailers removed from the formation, and was running on a closed section of line well away from any other train in case it all went horribly wrong. You'd never be able to replicate this in service.

With todays technology, possibly not...But who knows what the future holds for XHSR?...

--- Old post above / New post below: ---

AFAIK? What does this mean? I could only figure out:

As Far As I Know
And For All I Know
A Further Answer Is (K?)

AFAIK stands for As Far As I know, and is a widely recognised Internet acronym intended to save our poor old fingers!

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[driver9000]

Okay I have a few questions aswelll which I have always been wondering about.

1.Do any of you find driving at night a little less easier than in the day because of well you cannot see much infront of you so may be a little scary or even just harder to spot certain things like speed limit signs?????

2.This is a slightly silly question but how many birds do you hit on an average year??????

3.If you have ever hit a bird what is your reaction??????

4.What is the best thing you have had pass you (just out of curiousity)?????

Cheers

1. I prefer to drive at night, there is less to distract you. Signals can be a lot easier to see although some can end up blending into the background when displaying a yellow and you are in an urban area - they can look like streetlights. As others have said lineside signage is reflective so the headlight picks them up

2. Erm, thousands? no idea to be honest.....

3. I had an owl strike my windscreen in the midlde of the night once, I ducked to one side

4. A4 Pacific 'Union of South Africa' in full cry while I was using a SPT

 

[TheSlash]

3.If you have ever hit a bird what is your reaction?

Damn that Stella
I've hit a bird in a transit van doing 95 69.5mph, it was great 8)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Eurostars were always a bit odd because the safety rules for the Chunnel did not permit any bus cables. Therefore, each half-set has to operate independently of the other. In effect, they are two EMU's operating in multiple rather than a single train.O L Leigh

This is common technology now. Eurostars also have every cable duplicated to reduce the chance of a train circuit failure

 

[Coxster]

Damn that Stella
I've hit a bird in a transit van doing 95 69.5mph, it was great 8)

95mph in a Network Rail transit? Surely that's classed as misuse of company equipment

 

[O L Leigh]

I've always thought - Given that existing signalling is arranged in "blocks" designed for traditional loco-hauled trains doing 100mph - That linking successive blocks together in the signalling system would allow higher speeds to be attained, as the block length would effectively double every time it was done. 8)

God, what a complicated system. How would the driver know how many more single yellows there will be before the red...?

Quite honestly, the traditional railway network is only good enough for a 125mph maximum linespeed. You might be able to eke out an extra 10mph or so by stretching out the signal sections or introducing some form of 5th aspect, but you're never going to achieve seriously high speed services without building a dedicated network using a "moving block" in-cab signalling system. Fixed block systems, especially those using lineside signalling equipment, just wouldn't be appropriate or even particularly safe. How much time do you think a driver would have to see, identify and react to a lineside "peg" at, say, 186mph...?

I don't think that speed freaks are necessarily weeded out at the recruitment stage. Then again, their careers do tend to be "self limiting".

O L Leigh

 

[TheSlash]

95mph in a Network Rail transit? Surely that's classed as misuse of company equipment

69.5mph It would probably come under out and out abuse of company property

 

[Muttley]

As an example of what I'm trying to say:
Take a hypothetical stretch of line, 100 miles long, arranged in 10 mile blocks, and controlled by signals HYS 1 to 10. Normally, a train would be instructed by each individual signal in sequence...So the driver of that train would respond to HYS 1, HYS 2, HYS 3 and so on.
Linking sets of signals would allow for double or greater length blocks, so doubling up the blocks in this case would mean that each paired set of signals would display the closest aspect to danger that exists throughout that paired-up stretch of line and would allow a theoretical maximum of 150mph. Therefore the driver of the train would be instructed by HYS 1 (Echoing HYS 2), HYS 3 (Echoing HYS 4) HYS 5 (Echoing HYS 6) and so on.

Assuming that twenty consecutive blocks exist on a normal stretch of high-speed line and are spaced for a nominal 100mph as per BR standards, linking them up in various formations would give the following theoretical speed limits:

• 1 signal per block = 20 blocks = 100mph,
• 2 signals per block = 10 blocks = 150mph,
• 4 signals per block = 5 blocks = 200mph,
• 8 signals per block = 2.5 blocks = 300mph,
• 16 signals per block = 1.25 blocks = 400mph

Thus...In a purely theoretical sense (Bearing in mind that my knowlege of signalling requirements and spacing is base at best! hock Linking consecutive sections of signals together and having them displaying the most negative (Closest to danger) aspect for that relevant section could easily allow much higher speeds to be attained safely on existing infrastructure! With todays technology, possibly not...But who knows what the future holds for XHSR?...

We`ve got a section of line (mis)signalled in this way. Instead of making things faster it slows everything down. (Instead of running on greens, you`ll get single yellows even though theres 2 empty block sections in front of you.)

 

[mbonwick]

This is common technology now. Eurostars also have every cable duplicated to reduce the chance of a train circuit failure

As do 92s, for the same reason. Everything duplicated to reduce the chance of the trains stopping mid tunnel.

 

[O L Leigh]

This is common technology now. Eurostars also have every cable duplicated to reduce the chance of a train circuit failure

Maybe so, but it is also the Eurostar's achilles heel when it operates on the NR network.

Each half set has to be independent of the other, so each needs it's own method of power collection otherwise the entire train is down to half power. For this reason they must run with two pans raised. It also made them vulnerable to gapping when they used to operate out of Waterloo. The length of the set meant that the chances of stranding the entire train in a gap was small, but it wouldn't have been too hard to gap one half set or the other. Not a brilliant solution in my humble opinion.

The duplication of systems is a seperate issue though. It certainly doesn't make up for the lack of a main bus running the entire length of the train or at least being able to feed traction current from one end down the other so that only a single pan would need to be raised at any time.

O L Leigh

 

[support-uk-rail]

Has a train ever been stuck mid tunnel?

 

[TheSlash]

OL Leigh, i think it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Pro; You can supply the whole train with one shoe on the juice

Con; If the Bus goes down to earth, you lose the whole train rather than half a set.

442's have the right idea, everything on one coach to save equipment and weight duplication, but the ability to isolate a motor bogie in the event of a fault {rather than the whole motor coach on a CIG, or 1 end on a CEP, but lots of duplicated equipment}.

Your view is that the tail wags the dog, the modern train is restricted by our crap infrastructure rather than modify the infrastructure to cope. At that rate, we might aswell bring back the horse and cart!

 

[O L Leigh]

I wouldn't agree. The point is that the Eurostar is hardly a shining example of how an electric train should be powered, though this came about as a result of a mismatch between the safety rules of the Chunnel and the operating needs on the NR network. NR stock for NR infrastructure tends to be better suited to it's environment, as the Eurostar is to the TGV-standard lines for which it was designed.

The Wessies were not the first to simplify their equipment layout and have a power back-up, as I'm sure this has been common practice on 25kV AC EMU's with a single motor coach for yonks. Our Cl317's certainly have the facility to isolate traction motors in pairs (though it's one motor on each bogie rather than both).

Then again, I'm not sure that equipment is duplicated that much or that it poses a huge penalty. A Cl317 has one transformer, two electronics racks and four traction motors all under one coach. A Cl315 also has one transformer and two electronics racks (one per DMS), but double the number of traction motors. It also has two air compressors instead of the Cl317's one, but yet the entire unit still weighs less. The only disadvantage is that losing an electronics rack on a Cl315 will knock the unit down to half power straight away where this is not the case on a Cl317. But then we don't get many problems with Cl315 traction equipment compared to Cl317's.

O L Leigh

 

[ml1981]

How did you just become a driver then? As don't most driving jobs require previous training anyway?

I have been recruited externally. I have been working in the railway environment for three years but not for a TOC. Start my driver training in October!

 

[ungreat]

Congratulations mate..welcome to the no social life job of the century!

Seriously though,hope you like it. 21 years in,and im still here..although I liked it better under BR