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Driver overshoots. Not allowed to set back?
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ralphchadkirk
Established Member
Why? The driver has a PTS and a HiVis, and his train is blocking the line. Unless a TOC specifically prohibits it (unlikely) then the driver is perfectly entitled to walk alongside.
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Bearing in mind it was a DOO service, the train would have to be fitted with the technology to do it (usually referred to on here as SDO)
If it was just the front door that were off the platform, presumably the technology could be a key to lock the doors out of use! But thats probably too sensible so against the rules
michael769
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I would assume that when there is a safer alternative (of walking through the train) it would be expected that that would be used. Obviously if there is not through and through corridor connection that is a different matter.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Regrettably there's a lot to be corrected here.
1) To address the initial point of an overshoot. On some areas there are restrictions placed on when and where a train can be allowed to "set back" into the platform irrespective of there being crossings or spring/catch/facing points. On my routes we would simply not be permitted to do this south of BXB in the peaks because it just takes too long and the service frequency is sufficient that passengers can get back to their stops with only minimal inconvenience.
2) Where permission is given to "set back" the correct procedure is to agree the move with the signaller, change ends, contact the signaller to reconfirm the move, drive the train back into the platform, release the doors and then change ends again. This all takes time.
On the point about changing ends, the expectation is that you walk through the train rather down the outside of it. It is the safest method of changing ends and does not expose the driver to risk, although he will feel a bit daft.
3) DOO services are not required to use stock with SDO. Even where a train has SDO (see below) it is not possible to release only some doors while others remain securely closed. Therefore it simply isn't safe to attempt it. If you do overshoot and give a door release and someone falls from the train you would be guilty of negligence and misconduct and potentially liable to discipline, dismissal, civil court proceedings and even prosecution.
4) Where stock has SDO this is simply to tell the train which station it's at. Unless there are platform end beacons having SDO does not prevent the doors from opening where part of the train is hanging out the end of the station. Likewise it doesn't prevent the driver from releasing the doors on the wrong side. Equally, SDO does not permit the driver to manually select which coaches to give a door release on unless there is an issue with the SDO itself. This is known as an emergency door release.
(This is certainly the case with Cl379s and so it is reasonable to assume that all Electrostars are the same. Someone with knowledge of Desiros can correct for those units if necessary.)
O L Leigh
1) To address the initial point of an overshoot. On some areas there are restrictions placed on when and where a train can be allowed to "set back" into the platform irrespective of there being crossings or spring/catch/facing points. On my routes we would simply not be permitted to do this south of BXB in the peaks because it just takes too long and the service frequency is sufficient that passengers can get back to their stops with only minimal inconvenience.
2) Where permission is given to "set back" the correct procedure is to agree the move with the signaller, change ends, contact the signaller to reconfirm the move, drive the train back into the platform, release the doors and then change ends again. This all takes time.
On the point about changing ends, the expectation is that you walk through the train rather down the outside of it. It is the safest method of changing ends and does not expose the driver to risk, although he will feel a bit daft.
3) DOO services are not required to use stock with SDO. Even where a train has SDO (see below) it is not possible to release only some doors while others remain securely closed. Therefore it simply isn't safe to attempt it. If you do overshoot and give a door release and someone falls from the train you would be guilty of negligence and misconduct and potentially liable to discipline, dismissal, civil court proceedings and even prosecution.
4) Where stock has SDO this is simply to tell the train which station it's at. Unless there are platform end beacons having SDO does not prevent the doors from opening where part of the train is hanging out the end of the station. Likewise it doesn't prevent the driver from releasing the doors on the wrong side. Equally, SDO does not permit the driver to manually select which coaches to give a door release on unless there is an issue with the SDO itself. This is known as an emergency door release.
(This is certainly the case with Cl379s and so it is reasonable to assume that all Electrostars are the same. Someone with knowledge of Desiros can correct for those units if necessary.)
O L Leigh
northernrail
Member
We overshot at Catsleton a while a go in a 142, the speed he was going it was as if he thought he was on a none stopper, then we felt the emergency brake and after half a hour or so we reversed wrong line into the platform and then continued as normal.
It is possible to isolate individual doors or all doors on one or more coaches on a 377.
Desiros (unsure about 380s) are SDO per unit. Utterly useless system and one of their worst attributes. Great example is Wembley Central. For an 8 car formation, all but the rearmost set of doors are in the platform. And the whole second unit has to be locked out. Nightmare for concerts etc. Alrhough I do believe the platform is currently being extended.
I agree about it being a useless system (its more like Selective Unit Opening :P)
This would explain as to why an 8 car 350 stopping at Rugeley Trent Valley last Thursday only had the front 4 coaches open despite 5 or 6 coaches being on the platform
Most SDO systems (that lock out individual coaches not complete units) will keep the doors of the rear coaches locked, there is no provision to lock out the front coaches.
It is fairly easy to find this stuff out on the web rather than assume certain things.
SWT have some weird and wonderful SDO stations where an 8 car can be fully accommodated but when its a 12 car only the doors on the front 4 can be opened even though 8 coaches are on the platform, Fareham on the down and Hilsea on the up are 2 that spring to mind. The reason for this is the guard has to open the doors from the cab of the 9th coach and this door wont be on the platform.
It is fairly easy to find this stuff out on the web rather than assume certain things.
SWT have some weird and wonderful SDO stations where an 8 car can be fully accommodated but when its a 12 car only the doors on the front 4 can be opened even though 8 coaches are on the platform, Fareham on the down and Hilsea on the up are 2 that spring to mind. The reason for this is the guard has to open the doors from the cab of the 9th coach and this door wont be on the platform.
nr_signaller
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sellis89:851885 said:
Hmm, thought all LM 350s for rugeley trent valley were 4 car..
12CSVT
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I have seen two station overshoots involving 142 units during the leaf fall season, one at Millom the other at Wetheral. Ironically the second one was when I was waiting to phot 37516 and 37517 on an RHTT working. The one at Millom set back into the station where it was taken out of service.
craigwilson
Member
Most of the 375s in Kent that I've noticed seem to open the correct number of doors for the platform - e.g. Sandwich has the front 8 coaches of a 12-car open doors (in the case of the up line, the rear unit hangs over the level crossing), Rochester does the front 10 of a 12-car etc.
How are the doors controlled on these trains?
Assuming 375s are the same as 377s, the train uses GPS to know where it is and in which direction it's travelling. Once it knows where it is, it can look up on a database how many coaches to open at a particular station. The direction of travel is important as some stations may have different length platforms on up and down lines, consequently a different number of doors may be released depending on the direction of travel.
Yes, and if the train overshoots it will still sellect the same number of coaches even if some of them are off the far end, the driver wont release the doors so its perfectly safe.
An SDO system cannot decide whether to open from the front or back its always open from the front and lock the back!
An SDO system cannot decide whether to open from the front or back its always open from the front and lock the back!
And if an up train overruns badly due to low adhesion and the driver follows procedure and, with permission, makes a wrong direction movement in the down direction back into the up platform (which might be, say, 7 cars long), too many doors may open as the train thinks it's on the 8-car down platform as the last movement was in the down direction.
SDO is far from perfect. But if you're aware of its shortcomings and how to deal with them, it's not a bad system.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Yes, it is on the Cl379s too. However, I think that it would be "tea and biscuits" if you attempted to do this in the event of an overrun. The thing to be aware of is that this doesn't physically lock the doors off but simply takes the buttons out of circuit. My point was that this is not a feature of the SDO and that it cannot be overridden at will by the driver.
O L Leigh
It shouldn't be used in the event of an overrun, agreed, but we're certainly taught how to isolate individual doors/coaches for use in certain specific circumstances, to override the SDO. I agree that isolating doors via MITRAC does not physically lock them, but then neither does SDO (or flicking the S10 switch for that matter). But it does mean that passengers are unable to open the door by the normal means which is the important point, regardless of how it's achieved.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Really...? Wow!! Do you get issued with "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards as well? 
O L Leigh
O L Leigh
NSEFAN
Established Member
richw said:
Presumably there are cases when an overun also causes passing a signal (at danger or otherwise). I think the question was about how much more complicated is it to reverse a train once it has passed the signal?
ralphchadkirk
Established Member
Sometimes. If you overrun an automatic signal completely (inc overlap) then the signal in the rear will step up to one yellow. In an intensive area, a train may then enter the section before the signalman has time to intervene. In that case there is no choice but to continue.
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Certainly we were taught how to do it in theory when learning 377s, but I've yet to see anything in writing (maybe you know otherwise - I think we work for the same TOC) so would be very reluctant to do so in practice.
I did mention to my line manger recently that that we have plenty of written advice about how to brake in low adhesion conditions to try and avoid station overruns, but very little (if anything?) on what to do if it actually happens.
This happened to me a few years back on the east grinstead line, slid through a station by a coach and a half in the leaf fall. Obviously still contact signaller and get permissions, you don't just open the non isolated doors and carry on! Still reported it, then isolated the front 3 doors and opened, made announcement to alight from coaches 3-8. Will say for the record I was equitted of any blame, no problems with braking technique etc, hit the end of the platform at 12mph as it was so slippy going in, by the 4 car mark had her in step 3 brake, emergency a coach or so later as I knew it wasn't stopping. Slid off the end doing a mighty 3.6mph according to the download!
Don't ink it is in writing but as I say you must still report it, just unlikely they will ask you to go back into the platform if possible to isolate the doors (which takes a few seconds).
Don't ink it is in writing but as I say you must still report it, just unlikely they will ask you to go back into the platform if possible to isolate the doors (which takes a few seconds).
Not always - HST is either from the front or from the back. For example, on the Aberdeen/Inverness runs when heading Up the front hangs off the end of the station to put as much Standard on as possible (and luggage/bike storage). I'm not sure if fGW SDO works the same way
With manual SDO, I think Chiltern may use that on services between Leamington Spa and Stratford as they come and manually lock out the front door heading to Stratford. In the case of last week it was still locked out on arrival at Stratford
They usually are but this was the WCML problem day so one was doubled up...Simon Poole got it on video so I'll link it later if I remember (it was on the day of the WMDR meet)
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May I ask, why would the release have to be given from the front cab of coach 9 as opposed to the back cab of coach 8, which would be on the platform?
They usually are but this was the WCML problem day so one was doubled up...Simon Poole got it on video so I'll link it later if I remember (it was on the day of the WMDR meet)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
May I ask, why would the release have to be given from the front cab of coach 9 as opposed to the back cab of coach 8, which would be on the platform?
O L Leigh
Established Member
That's not SDO. That's just locking off a door.
But for my Electrostar driving compadres, I have to say that I would agree with Pendolino and prefer to err on the side of caution. Naturally we were given lots of training and shown most (if not all) of the MITRAC functions available to us, together with lots of other features on the train. However, the one thing we have singularly failed to be given is any form of driving policy explaining what is or is not acceptable. That something is possible does not mean that it can or should be done. I shall start making some noise at work, I think.
Incidentally, we've been running Cl379s with the SDO isolated due to the number of faults it generated. But now it's being switched back on again, so we shall see what happens next.
O L Leigh
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