Driver despatch Tottenham Hale

[VauxhallandI]

We were delayed tonight (18.25 Liv St to Broxbourne) at Tottenham Hale as there were no platform staff to despatch the train.

The driver had to get out and despatch the train from the middle of the train.

New one on me.

 

[anthony263]

Well 1st time I have ever heard of this happening

 

[VauxhallandI]

The ticket office at Theobalds has been shut for a while, maybe they have decided to make some cut backs

 

[313103]

The driver was probably carrying out a 'degraded' dispatch procedure. This would be allowed to take place if the driver did indeed close the doors from the middle of the train. We have a Lea Valley line driver on here perhaps he could enlighten us.

The driver wouldn't do it if it wasn't permitted.

 

[VauxhallandI]

The driver was probably carrying out a 'degraded' dispatch procedure. This would be allowed to take place if the driver did indeed close the doors from the middle of the train. We have a Lea Valley line driver on here perhaps he could enlighten us.

The driver wouldn't do it if it wasn't permitted.

I'm sure it is allowed, just wondered where the platform staff had gone. Why couldn't he do it from the cab like at the other stations on the line?

 

[Mojo]

Train dispatch at Tottenham Hale on the Down is usually carried out by platform staff operating CD/RA indicators. It is a possibility therefore that from the normal driving position, or the cab, it was not possible for driver to monitor the platform train interface.

 

[Nym]

Tottenham Hale has a rather long sweeping curve platform and is narrow at the end, if you're at the 8 car stop you can only see four or five cars clearly.

 

[VauxhallandI]

'Twas indeed 8 cars.

Train was delayed due to the lack of staff, I don't imagine the extra time is built in to the timetable?

 

[jopsuk]

This presumably would have been a 317? As the 379s shouldn't have any problem, using on-train cameras/monitors

 

[VauxhallandI]

This presumably would have been a 317? As the 379s shouldn't have any problem, using on-train cameras/monitors

Correct

 

[142094]

Closing doors from a middle cab is standard procedure when there is a problem with safe dispatch from the leading cab - e.g. a TV monitor failure. Doesn't happen too often but will be following a safe system of work.

 

[cmovcc]

I was on the 379 in front of that train (1807 LST->Kings Lynn), and at Tottenham Hale the driver had to announced "due to a lack of platform staff and the CCTV in the middle 4 coaches being broken, I have to lock each door in turn manually", which took about 5 minutes

 

[bezzer]

We were delayed tonight (18.25 Liv St to Broxbourne) at Tottenham Hale as there were no platform staff to despatch the train.

The driver had to get out and despatch the train from the middle of the train.

New one on

There are usually 2 staff on the down platform to dispatch trains because of the curve of the platform and also because of people running from the tube to catch the overground which is at the end furthest from the driver's cab.

Local instructions for Tottenham Hale and in deed for Seven Sisters and Bishops Stortford state that if no staff are available to dispatch the trains then the driver can either:-

1. Go to the middle cab on an 8/12 car and close the doors from there, then return to the leading cab
2. Close each door individually using the Porter buttons at the end of each cab

This is because the driver cannot see all the doors from the cab.

Of course that is all fine. However once back in the cab the driver cannot see the length of the train, so anyone who arrives after he has shut the doors and returns to the cab or is within the dispatch corridor, or trying to board the train or close to the edge, the driver cannot see!! So technically, with no staff on the station the driver could refuse to depart because he cannot guarantee the safety of all passengers on the train and platform.

This is especially in light of the incident at Bishops Stortford a few months ago where a teenager lost his legs because he fell underneath a train that was just departing. As the train was leaving the platform, he ran down the stairs, tried to look into the train to see off he had left something and fell underneath the wheels of the train. The first thing the driver knew(who was not to blame in anyway) was when he arrived at Stanstead Airport 10 minutes later.

By following this procedure at Tottenham Hale and other stations and delaying the train, what it does emphasise to the company is the importance of staff at these key stations and the problems there would be if they decided to remove them and go completely DOO. Drivers are trying to protect the jobs of their colleagues.

 

[ruggers]

is it even legal to dispatch if you can't see the entire train?

 

[bezzer]

is it even legal to dispatch if you can't see the entire train?

Good question. At Broxbourne and Harlow Town, if you go into Patform's 1 or 4 the doors are on the opposite side to the driving controls. So, if no staff are available, you stick your head out of the second man's side window, shut the doors, wait for interlock and then walk back across the cab to the controls to drive off.

Meanwhile in that time anything could have happened between the train and platform interface but you will never know because you are on the other side of the train and cannot look back along the platform!! And there are no doors or mirrors.

On Platform 11 at Stratford you have the same problem. But they have provided monitors so you can see the whole train even though the platform is curved and you are not driving from the platform side therefore you cannot stick your head out of the window!! Why they don't do it elsewhere, I guess is down to not wanting to spend the dosh. But until someone gets serioiusly hurt I cannot see things changing.

 

[Starmill]

It strikes me that there are loads of situations where there's not somebody watching all or part of the train as it departs... This sounds like just another one of these?

 

[Carlisle]

I was on the 379 in front of that train (1807 LST->Kings Lynn), and at Tottenham Hale the driver had to announced "due to a lack of platform staff and the CCTV in the middle 4 coaches being broken, I have to lock each door in turn manually", which took about 5 minutes

Does not look very promising for future DOO schemes if the on.train cameras can not be relied on to work most of the time

 

[jopsuk]

um, they do work most of the time. Just not 100% of the time.

 

[bezzer]

It strikes me that there are loads of situations where there's not somebody watching all or part of the train as it departs... This sounds like just another one of these?

Not strictly true. The difference is that at every other station on the GA side (about 150) where there is DOO the driver can see the length of the train as they depart by looking back out of their window or by looking at the monitors or mirrors. It is just at these 5 stations mentioned enforce where this is not possible. I don't know what the rule is on other networks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

um, they do work most of the time. Just not 100% of the time.

It is rare for the DOO cameras on a 379 not to work.

 

[A-driver]

There most certainly are stations where the driver won't be able to see the platform whilst leaving. For example at queens road Peckham, Peckham rye and south bermondsay on the up platforms (at least it was like this when I was there) the driver has to walk over to the other side of the cab, look back (or use the right hand monitors at south bermondsay and Peckham rye), close doors and then walk back into the driving half of the cab to start moving the train so there can be a delay of 5 or so seconds between the driver viewing the train and the brakes coming off.

But it's not much different to any dispatch where as soon as the train moves the driver looses view of the platform.

But as others have said in this case, the curvature of the platform means that the driver won't be able to see the back of the train from the cab, even stepping onto the platform probably won't help here and so he can either close down each coach individually or go to the middle cabs and close doors from there. If the driver attempts to close doors from the front without a full view and anything goes wrong he would very likely end up loosing a job and possibly even going to court.

As to why the station was unstaffed...sickness, late running staff etc, if they havnt got a spare member of staff trained in dispatch who can get there intime then they won't have any staff.

 

[jon0844]

Network Rail should be installing cameras and monitors at more stations, such as Hatfield platform 3, as it would surely make things easier for drivers and passengers alike.

But it must cost a lot of money.

 

[quarella]

Network Rail should be installing cameras and monitors at more stations, such as Hatfield platform 3, as it would surely make things easier for drivers and passengers alike.

But it must cost a lot of money.

As would platform edge doors, especially with the variety of door locations.
Cheapest option. Passengers held off the platform till train comes to a stand. Open gate and allow passengers to board alight. Close access gate. Clear platform of any remaining passengers. Close doors. Depart.

 

[jon0844]

I think platform edge doors are going to be impossible unless every station will only ever have one type of train stopping.

I'd also say that you'd inevitably go for something a lot more simplistic than that used underground (where it's mostly about controlling air pressure) and at most, you'd probably just have some sort of railings that someone might vault over anyway.

At a station like Tottenham Hale, a more simple solution would be for a small barrier (akin to how you might stop cyclists rushing down an alleyway) to be placed on the platform to effectively stop someone that runs down the stairs, by making them have to go around. At worst, if they ran or slipped into the barrier they wouldn't be going under a train.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Tottenham Hale was suffering from staffing issues yesterday afternoon, so yes, we were dispatching ourselves.

Already +6, I then had a passenger taken ill at Angel Road. It went down as "one of those days".

 

[Carlisle]

Network Rail should be installing cameras and monitors at more stations, such as Hatfield platform 3, as it would surely make things easier for drivers and passengers alike.

But it must cost a lot of money.

The trend these days seems to be for external CCTVcameras on trains rather than the older idea of platform mirrors /monitors ,I know they have considered fitting the SPT class 318s with them .so maybe some older stock might get them fitted eventually

 

[VauxhallandI]

Tottenham Hale was suffering from staffing issues yesterday afternoon, so yes, we were dispatching ourselves.

Already +6, I then had a passenger taken ill at Angel Road. It went down as "one of those days".

I'm glad of the extra precaution taken (the chap buzzer mentions at BS worked at my office, not that it was the drivers fault), it just seems like such an important role I am a little surprised there could be no cover.

 

[tsr]

Tottenham Hale was suffering from staffing issues yesterday afternoon, so yes, we were dispatching ourselves.

Already +6, I then had a passenger taken ill at Angel Road. It went down as "one of those days".

Oh goodness me. Angel Road... that's the one with a very long series of awkward footpaths to the main road, isn't it? Surely the passenger had to be assisted at the next station?

 

[jon0844]

Angel Road doesn't seem to be the most welcoming station.

 

[bezzer]

Angel Road doesn't seem to be the most welcoming station.

What is there at Angel Road? Why does the even station exist?

The fact that only about 4 trains stop there in the morning and the same in the afternoon and about a dozen people get off in total says it all!!!

I think it's just there sometimes to catch the driver out!!!

 

[jon0844]

What is there at Angel Road? Why does the even station exist?

The fact that only about 4 trains stop there in the morning and the same in the afternoon and about a dozen people get off in total says it all!!!

I think it's just there sometimes to catch the driver out!!!

Even if hardly anyone uses it, I bet there'd be outrage if anyone tried to close it!

Now that there's the huge Tesco and Ikea opposite, if the station was ever modified and had better access to the stores, it might actually get used all day - but people seem happy with the buses that shuttle you to Tottenham Hale.