Driver checks tickets

[West Ruislip]

In rural parts of Japan the driver also checks tickets, although not at the same time!

Could such a system be adopted in the UK for lightly used lines?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Germany it was the case that if you didn't have a ticket on a DOO line you had to go to the driver, though he didn't sell them[1], he just logged that you'd been honest to tell inspectors if they boarded so you wouldn't get a PF.

[1] There was an obvious fixing for a coin tray and holder on the old 2-car DMUs, though, so maybe at one point they did.

Neil

 

[A-driver]

In rural parts of Japan the driver also checks tickets, although not at the same time!



Could such a system be adopted in the UK for lightly used lines?

Not without significantly increasing times by only boarding by 1 door or making them walk through the train at each stop.

Think they TOCs would prefer to risk looking a bit of revenue than increase journey times that much!

 

[Bletchleyite]

A more modern approach is an on-board TVM and penalty fares.

Neil

 

[Greenback]

Assuming an on board TVM hasn't been smashed up within a day or two of being installed, I can imagine there being a bit of queue as soon as the guard is spotted coming through the train.

Back on topic, and I don't think that the driver checking tickets would work in the UK for various reasons. If the check was done on boarding, quite apart from the increased dwell times I don't see how this would prevent people boarding with a ticket to the next stop and then staying on the train.

 

[deltic1989]

I believe the OP was aiming this specifically at lightly used branch lines, where you would only normally expect 2 or 3 passengers waiting at each stop.
With that being the case, would the dwell time be much longer than that of a bus?
The significant bar to this that I see is cost, for the system to work you would have to have the entry door right next to the driver, which would require some new stock.
Although costs could be negated by just sticking a bus body on a rail chassis, in a similar way to what was done to create LEV1.

 

[Greenback]

He did mention lightly used lines, yes, but without giving any examples of where this could be in operation.

As I see it, lightly used lines are rare, but there are a lot of lightly used stations. I wouldn't describe any of the lines in south Wales as lightly used, even the Heart of Wales, which isn't a branch, can be very busy on some sections at times. I once counted more than 30 board at Llandrindod, and over a dozen at Llandeilo on the same train.

I also assumed that boarding would be restricted to one door, although this isn't mentioned in the OP either.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would it be worth TOCs having dedicated ticket inspectors on trains (at least on the mainlines) by the time wages are factored in?

 

[notadriver]

If they had dedicated ticket inspectors what would the guard be doing ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming an on board TVM hasn't been smashed up within a day or two of being installed, I can imagine there being a bit of queue as soon as the guard is spotted coming through the train.

RPI, I guess, as there'd be little benefit to doing this if there was a guard. The European practice is that when they board, they switch it off

Back on topic, and I don't think that the driver checking tickets would work in the UK for various reasons. If the check was done on boarding, quite apart from the increased dwell times I don't see how this would prevent people boarding with a ticket to the next stop and then staying on the train.

Yeah, that's what leads to flat fares on bus networks.

I would say if guards are on the train (as is preferable) they should also do revenue. If you're going to give the driver anything to do, doors (at least opening) would be the one that would save the guard most time and allow him to do revenue more effectively.

Neil

 

[craigybagel]

He did mention lightly used lines, yes, but without giving any examples of where this could be in operation.

As I see it, lightly used lines are rare, but there are a lot of lightly used stations. I wouldn't describe any of the lines in south Wales as lightly used, even the Heart of Wales, which isn't a branch, can be very busy on some sections at times. I once counted more than 30 board at Llandrindod, and over a dozen at Llandeilo on the same train.

I also assumed that boarding would be restricted to one door, although this isn't mentioned in the OP either.

Indeed,on the early morning northbound service the guard is normally working flat out from knighton to Shrewsbury. By the time you've got one set of passengers done you're at the next stop.

 

[stut]

I also assumed that boarding would be restricted to one door, although this isn't mentioned in the OP either.

FWIW, the Japanese method (also used on buses) is that you pay on exit. You take a ticket on entry (it's stamped with a number that represents your stop). When the train arrives in a station, the driver moves to a podium at the front of the train, and everybody exits through the front door. Throughout the train, there are indicators showing you what the fare is for each ticket number, so you can have the correct change ready. Once that's done, all doors are open for boarding.

Obviously, it still means increased dwell times, and can only work for small volumes. I suspect it also works better in a rather regimented country like Japan, where people will very rapidly get ready to leave, and have the correct fare ready (and not try to sneak out!)

 

[West Ruislip]

One man operated trains in Japan:

http://railpicturelibrary.zenfolio.com/p773535743/hab5d308#hab5d308

http://railpicturelibrary.zenfolio.com/p773535743/h3df210c8#h3df210c8

Kyushu Railway will be privatised next year following heavy losses, due mainly to rural depopulation. Part of the deal will be that rural services will be maintained.

In order to reduce losses most of the company's remaining staffed stations will lose their staff.

In this context it would be difficult to justify the cost of employing a second member of staff on rural trains, especially as fare dodging is relatively rare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they had dedicated ticket inspectors what would the guard be doing ?

Nothing, as he wouldn't exist. These suggestions have no benefit in a situation where the guard remains - they are workarounds to allow DOO.

Neil

 

[WestCoast]

The closest thing in recent times in the UK, that I can think of, would be the One Man Operated Trams on the legacy Blackpool Tramway prior to modernisation (there were a few different types including double deck jubilee cars). They tended to operate Driver only selling tickets in the Winter and often with a conductor at busy times in the summer.

 

[40129]

I well remember those DOO trams and the painfully long dwell times at most stops. Not sure what benefits would arise from introducing this onto trains as the reduction in costs could be offset by the loss in revenue as journey times become uncompetitive.

 

[Greenback]

Japan is indeed far more of a regimented country than the UK. I don't think the system as described, with passengers taking a ticket on boarding and paying on exit, has any chance of working here.

 

[West Ruislip]

Japan is indeed far more of a regimented country than the UK. I don't think the system as described, with passengers taking a ticket on boarding and paying on exit, has any chance of working here.

In the very rural areas everyone knows each other and fare dodging is perceived as being a rather shameful thing to do.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

In the very rural areas everyone knows each other and fare dodging is perceived as being a rather shameful thing to do.

In your idyllic world maybe. Not here in the SE it's not, it's everyone for themselves.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

A similar system might work for the three a day service between Knottingley and Goole but that's about it.

 

[oversteer]

In your idyllic world maybe. Not here in the SE it's not, it's everyone for themselves.

I presumed it was rural Japan where everyone knew each other
I agree such a scheme wouldn't even be dreamt of in the UK.

 

[noddingdonkey]

How about an Oyster/Contactless style solution?

Touch in/out points on every station with a capping arrangement. Stations with significant footfall barriered such that the majority of journies will require pax to pass through a barrier at one end if not both, giving an incentive to touch in and out at both ends to avoid incurring the day fare for short journey. (eg if you get to the far end and have to touch out but haven't touched in at the start, you pay the day ticket rate)

Add in RPIs on selected services doing ticket checks should further deter people chancing it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There was a line in The Netherlands where the 'pay driver on entry' system operated, north of Zuider Zee, if I remember correctly. I think there was an article in Modern Railways but it was a many years ago.

On a single unit railcar e.g. similar to the preserved GW railcars or a single car pacer , I can see it working in theory and practice, but, if you are carrying that few passengers throughout the route, every service, every day, why bother running the train at all!

As has been said, and like the removal of conductors from buses, it will save money on crew costs but slow journey times considerably, thus making the service less attractive and reducing usage further. If people were quick to board, knowing their fare and having the correct money ready, that would help speed things up, it doesn't happen like that with buses so I can't see it happening on trains.

 

[TDK]

In rural parts of Japan the driver also checks tickets, although not at the same time!

Could such a system be adopted in the UK for lightly used lines?

It is possible if that line is DOO however if it is a line with a guard it would never get past the unions

 

[Baxenden Bank]

In rural parts of Japan the driver also checks tickets, although not at the same time!

Could such a system be adopted in the UK for lightly used lines?

Why not at the same time? The train captains on DLR do it, come the widespread introduction of ERTMS (ahem)? I'm uncomfortable with the prospect of a computer controlled / driven Pendolino, but the technology does / will exist. Planes don't need pilots like they used to!

 

[West Ruislip]

In your idyllic world maybe. Not here in the SE it's not, it's everyone for themselves.

Indeed. I meant rural Japan!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was a line in The Netherlands where the 'pay driver on entry' system operated, north of Zuider Zee, if I remember correctly. I think there was an article in Modern Railways but it was a many years ago.

On a single unit railcar e.g. similar to the preserved GW railcars or a single car pacer , I can see it working in theory and practice, but, if you are carrying that few passengers throughout the route, every service, every day, why bother running the train at all!

As has been said, and like the removal of conductors from buses, it will save money on crew costs but slow journey times considerably, thus making the service less attractive and reducing usage further. If people were quick to board, knowing their fare and having the correct money ready, that would help speed things up, it doesn't happen like that with buses so I can't see it happening on trains.

The Kyushu Railway will be privatised next year and, realising that the railway is of great social benefit to the older population that their rural routes serve, there will be a legal obligation on the train operator to maintain the present service but at the cost of removing station staff from most of the remaining staffed stations.

 

[richw]

Sounds like a bus style system. Very slow if large numbers boarding.

 

[Groningen]

The Wadloper in the north of the Netherlands had an option to buy ticket from the traindriver. Although i believe it never happened. A bad picture, but look in the back.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm sure they could issue the driver with a broom as well...

 

[Abpj17]

Why not at the same time? The train captains on DLR do it, come the widespread introduction of ERTMS (ahem)? I'm uncomfortable with the prospect of a computer controlled / driven Pendolino, but the technology does / will exist. Planes don't need pilots like they used to!

Yeah; if the line is that rural and no risk of hitting other trains etc. driverless like DLR would make increasing sense but with them sorting ticket (or do you just go all out and to a driverless minibus...without the constraint/requirement for train lines)