Driver checks tickets

[West Ruislip]

I'm sure they could issue the driver with a broom as well...

One very rural 'depot' I visited had a washing line attached, full of drying clothes that the staff had washed in between duties!

When I arrived the driver said he was happy to move any stock in the two sidings if I needed a photograph of anything in particular.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I'm sure they could issue the driver with a broom as well...

Please indicate your choice of colour, and required handle length.

 

[plastictaffy]

Lovely idea, but ASLEF and the RMT would never agree to it in any way, shape or form.
The end.

 

[Flamingo]

Please indicate your choice of colour, and required handle length.

I'm not a driver, therefore not qualified to use it...

 

[A-driver]

Lovely idea, but ASLEF and the RMT would never agree to it in any way, shape or form.

The end.

Is it? I don't see it as a 'lovely idea' but a rather unpractical idea which isn't going to work. There simply would be too much increase in station timings. You would either end up with constant late running (or no tickets being sold in order to keep time) affecting train parking into bigger stations (most rural routes run into larger stations) or end up significantly increasing journey times to build in extra dwell times.

 

[Greenback]

Please can we keep on the topic of drivers checking tickets and not drift off into driverless trains etc?!

 

[Robertj21a]

Lovely idea, but ASLEF and the RMT would never agree to it in any way, shape or form.
The end.

Surely it's not for ASLEF or the RMT to agree to anything ? - aren't they supposed to act in accordance with the wishes of their members ?

 

[A-driver]

Surely it's not for ASLEF or the RMT to agree to anything ? - aren't they supposed to act in accordance with the wishes of their members ?

Well yes...ASLEF and the RMT are the membership, kind of what a trade union is.

 

[Robertj21a]

Well yes...ASLEF and the RMT are the membership, kind of what a trade union is.

No, ASLEF and RMT are the unions. They are run by individuals appointed by their members - some people believe that it is these union leaders that wield too much power in their role to 'persuade' their members to vote in ballots, take strike action, work to rule, or whatever. However, at the end of the day, it is for the individual members to make their own individual decision - not for their leaders to state what they would like. It's a subtle difference.

 

[A-driver]

No, ASLEF and RMT are the unions. They are run by individuals appointed by their members - some people believe that it is these union leaders that wield too much power in their role to 'persuade' their members to vote in ballots, take strike action, work to rule, or whatever. However, at the end of the day, it is for the individual members to make their own individual decision - not for their leaders to state what they would like. It's a subtle difference.

Right, so therefore the union is its membership. They get the vote so of management want something to change and the union ballots then it's the members who decide...

 

[Greenback]

Membership gets the final say on the big issues that command a vote. It's a bit like government. Most individuals don't have the time or interest to get involved in the nitty gritty of day to day decision making, so they delegate that to their elected representatives to do it for them.

While some union members will automatically do what the union executive recommends. that isn't any different to someone automatically voting for a candidate in May who wears the 'right' coloured rosette. Or because The Sun or Daily Mail recommends it.

You can give anyone a vote, but you can't force them to use it intelligently.

 

[ringi]

This works for buses, so why not trains.

A good example could be a off peak train to Rose Hill, there would still be enough seats with 1 carriage locked out, very few people get on apart from Manchester, so keep the normal ticker inspects on the platform there. Just have the driver selling tickers to people that get on elsewhere.

On the way back the driver could sell tickets to people that get off before Manchester.

If doing this saved enough cost to run a Sunday service, great!

 

[Flamingo]

This works for buses, so why not trains.

A good example could be a off peak train to Rose Hill, there would still be enough seats with 1 carriage locked out, very few people get on apart from Manchester, so keep the normal ticker inspects on the platform there. Just have the driver selling tickers to people that get on elsewhere.

On the way back the driver could sell tickets to people that get off before Manchester.

If doing this saved enough cost to run a Sunday service, great!

Read the other posts on this thread, then think it through...

(And saying it could save enough to run a Sunday service, or even thinking it could, shows such a lack of knowledge or understanding as to be funny...)

 

[The Planner]

Apart from the fact it would increase the journey time that much it would probably put people off travelling. You would need dwell times of 5 minutes or more which you would have to stick to or have a shed load of pathing at some point where you sit and wait your path.

 

[A-driver]

This works for buses, so why not trains.

A good example could be a off peak train to Rose Hill, there would still be enough seats with 1 carriage locked out, very few people get on apart from Manchester, so keep the normal ticker inspects on the platform there. Just have the driver selling tickers to people that get on elsewhere.

On the way back the driver could sell tickets to people that get off before Manchester.

If doing this saved enough cost to run a Sunday service, great!

Afraid your post falls down with the first sentence...simply trains and buses are different. So it may work on a bus but that certainly doesn't mean it'll work on a train.

In the example you for it would be a stronger argument to suggest that the cost effective way of operating a Sunday service there is to run a bus instead of a train though...

 

[ringi]

Apart from the fact it would increase the journey time that much it would probably put people off travelling. You would need dwell times of 5 minutes or more which you would have to stick to or have a shed load of pathing at some point where you sit and wait your path.

Not on the example I gave, going into Manchester very few people get off apart from at Manchester. There may be times when the driver have to let 1 or 2 people go free due to dwell times, but that will be uncommon.

If the cost of buying from the driver was more then the platform ticket machines, the driver will mostly be checking a handful of tickets on the complete trip.

 

[A-driver]

Not on the example I gave, going into Manchester very few people get off apart from at Manchester. There may be times when the driver have to let 1 or 2 people go free due to dwell times, but that will be uncommon.

If the cost of buying from the driver was more then the platform ticket machines, the driver will mostly be checking a handful of tickets on the complete trip.

If there are that few people then it's cheaper to risk a few fare Dodgers that increase dwell times, train drivers in ticketing etc and then the practicalities that unlike a bus the drivers cab isn't open and can't be made into a box on the side like a bus as there must be access to both sides of the train and room for at least 2 people in there...

You seem to misunderstand a lot about trains to believe they are that comparable to buses!

 

[Flamingo]

Why not have two drivers, one to drive the train, and one to sell the tickets and then there will be no delays...

No wait, rather than have two expensive drivers, how about one of them not having all the training that the driver has, as they are not driving the train, their job can just be to sell tickets...

Of course they won't need to be paid quite as much...

Just to differentiate them from the driver, as their job is to sell and check tickets, call them something different - how about Ticket Examiner...

 

[A-driver]

Why not have two drivers, one to drive the train, and one to sell the tickets and then there will be no delays...

No wait, rather than have two expensive drivers, how about one of them not having all the training that the driver has, as they are not driving the train, their job can just be to sell tickets...

Of course they won't need to be paid quite as much...

Just to differentiate them from the driver, as their job is to sell and check tickets, call them something different - how about Ticket Examiner...

Quite! Whilst I understand the purpose of this thread comparing it to the practice in Japan, it does seem that with the UKs network in mind the idea of getting the driver to check tickets on any route is going to overall cost far more to implement than it will ever make in revenue.

To answer the OPs question, in the UK it's quite simply a non starter. Pretty much no advantages whatsoever, especially as I doubt ticket dodging is particularly common in the most rural areas where only a few people would be on the train...it's much more a problem of the big cities where it's absolutely not practice at all...a 12 car commuter train with only the front door being opened whilst 250 people file in paying the driver!

 

[Deerfold]

This works for buses, so why not trains.

A good example could be a off peak train to Rose Hill, there would still be enough seats with 1 carriage locked out, very few people get on apart from Manchester, so keep the normal ticker inspects on the platform there. Just have the driver selling tickers to people that get on elsewhere.

On the way back the driver could sell tickets to people that get off before Manchester.

If doing this saved enough cost to run a Sunday service, great!

Most bus companies of any size are doing all they can to persuade passengers onto electronic and/or pre-paid ticketing as the driver issuing tickets is one of the main factors that slows buses down.

Additionally, if practice is different at peak and off-peak times, expect people to be confused and threads on here to be started about how to simplify the system with people not knowing whether to pay the driver or guard. And trying to pay the driver at the wrong time.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Most bus companies of any size are doing all they can to persuade passengers onto electronic and/or pre-paid ticketing as the driver issuing tickets is one of the main factors that slows buses down.

Additionally, if practice is different at peak and off-peak times, expect people to be confused and threads on here to be started about how to simplify the system with people not knowing whether to pay the driver or guard. And trying to pay the driver at the wrong time.

Is it possible that in the future we'll end up with something like Oyster covering the whole of the UK rail network (maybe all buses as well), with no TOC accepting cash? Then it would just need random revenue checks (with high penalties).

 

[Deerfold]

Is it possible that in the future we'll end up with something like Oyster covering the whole of the UK rail network (maybe all buses as well), with no TOC accepting cash? Then it would just need random revenue checks (with high penalties).

It's possible - but probably a long way off as the current system is developing a a large number of non-interoperable schemes with a different card for each.

I've got 3 so far - none of which work in the other areas.

The only exception I've come across is that Southern's The Key works in London.

 

[D1009]

Afraid your post falls down with the first sentence...simply trains and buses are different. So it may work on a bus but that certainly doesn't mean it'll work on a train.

In the example you for it would be a stronger argument to suggest that the cost effective way of operating a Sunday service there is to run a bus instead of a train though...

I suppose it could work on the Stourbridge Town branch at quiet times, but I can't see it working anywhere else.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Afraid your post falls down with the first sentence...simply trains and buses are different. So it may work on a bus but that certainly doesn't mean it'll work on a train.

In the example you for it would be a stronger argument to suggest that the cost effective way of operating a Sunday service there is to run a bus instead of a train though...

Oh my ! Cancel Magnet, apply brake, Stop at station, apply DRA, brake at Step 3, Desk to neutral, get out of seat, find T Key, pick up ticket machine, Open cab door, shut cab door, You forgot your coat, and it's slashing down, so go back for coat, shut cab door again, Do all guard's duties opening doors, one door only mind you so all punters are running down platform with babies bouncing in buggies to get to you, stand in door, selling tickets 1 by 1 as the punters get on, after they have stood there in the rain, oh hang on, you want a single to London via Ipswich, hold on, I'll just bring that one up, that's £5,678.97 p HOW MUCH !! etc., etc., etc. Train is now 12 minutes late

Do all guards duties shutting doors, open cab door, shut cab door, put ticket machine and T key away, take off soaking wet coat and hang it up, put controller to forward, put brake to step one, check DOO platform equipment, remove DRA, take power, release brake

" Ptschhhooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!!!!! " Flash, flash, flash, flash.....................

FUC, BALLOX, ****E, with all that going on I forgot that the FIRST thing I did in this huge and lengthy farrago was CANCEL THE MAGNET, I forgot the signal on the end of the platform was RED and I've had a SASSPAD and am out of a job !!

Driver's drive and don't give a toss about tickets
Guard's guard and sell tickets
Other people worry about just about tickets
Get real !

 

[fandroid]

Ticket machines on trams (and light U-Bahn) are not unusual in Germany. Just occasionally you get them on buses too (you certainly do on many city buses in Poland). I guess that such things rely on a national culture of trusting the passenger. They cover the local dishonesty hotspots with more frequent random inspections (I was checked twice in one evening in Hanover!). The idea of the driver selling tickets sounds a bit retro. However, It might work out of season on the remoter lines such as in Scotland. In the tourist season, temporary revenue staff could be employed to cope with the greater passenger numbers.

 

[craigybagel]

Aside from all of the many reasons why this is a terrible idea in the UK, you also have the issue that most of the routes that are quiet enough for this to be worthwhile (rural routes in the extremes of wales and Scotland for example) are not set up for driver only operation - due to the signalling or other issues on those routes, trains have to run with a guard anyway!

 

[notadriver]

Aside from all of the many reasons why this is a terrible idea in the UK, you also have the issue that most of the routes that are quiet enough for this to be worthwhile (rural routes in the extremes of wales and Scotland for example) are not set up for driver only operation - due to the signalling or other issues on those routes, trains have to run with a guard anyway!

What are the requirements for driver only operation in terms of infrastructure? It seems all that is needed is train CCTV cameras for despatch and CSR or GSMR radio fitted. We are going to GSMR nationwide now ....

 

[craigybagel]

I was thinking in terms of signalling - I know DOO is not permitted in AB signalled area (something those of us who sign through Stockport are very grateful for), and I suspect it's not permitted in token worked sections either? Its also not permitted on the Heart of Wales Line (even ecs movements down there have to carry a guard in case the points have to be manually operated) so I suspect it's not permitted on other lines that are NSTR or RETB. All of those together rule out most of the quietest lines on Britain.