Doors on Mk3's

[RichmondCommu]

There was a picture in Modern Railways of the the prototype internal door handle on a FGW carriage; I'm sure I found a similar picture online which I can't seem to find at the present time. To me this is the best solution as it is cost-effective. There have been some fair points raised in this thread about some people feeling strained at using an externally mounted door handle but having an internal handle should cause little problem to anyone. If a customer is completely unable to open any form of door whatsoever, then I'm sure someone else will be willing to open it on their behalf.

I'm not a fan of Chiltern Railway's idea of the retrofit plug doors. It is such an unnecessary cost when the less expensive internal handle solution is completely adequate. It also takes away the uniqueness of the Mark 3 coach, especially with regards to being able to lower the window which provides free air conditioning.

An interior door handle would indeed be easier to use but it doesn't solve the problem of having to shut the door after use which can cause delays. What i've never understood is that the SNCF Corail coaches and the mk3's were introduced at around the same time but the Corail coaches have always had powered doors operated by the driver. I don't see how this "uniqueness" helps anyone.

 

[announcements]

I don't see how this "uniqueness" helps anyone.

The uniqueness of slam doors with windows that can be lowered doesn't help anyone per se (apart from many train enthusiasts who enjoy the novelty!) and I do take on-board the comments related to people not shutting them after use.

However, the way I see it is that the Mark 3s aren't going to necessarily survive much longer even with expensive plug-doors fitted. To me it just seems a waste of money and resources converting the doors.

 

[seventh-heaven]

However, the way I see it is that the Mark 3s aren't going to necessarily survive much longer even with expensive plug-doors fitted. To me it just seems a waste of money and resources converting the doors.

The justification is as much about journey time improvement as it is about anything else. Chiltern are spending £150m taking 20 - 30 minutes off the London to Birmingham journey times, yet if they operate with the Mk3s with slam doors experience has shown that you add a minute back for each station stop compared to the equivalent Class 168 timings.

On the basis of 30 minutes that is £5m per minute! New power doors are cheap!

Then of course there are all the other passenger benefits - they are ultimately safer, much easier for people to operate and can seal the coach from the elements far better than the existing doors.

 

[jones_bangor]

However, the way I see it is that the Mark 3s aren't going to necessarily survive much longer even with expensive plug-doors fitted. To me it just seems a waste of money and resources converting the doors.

I think the Mk3's have plenty of life left in them - even if a pretty major overhaul were required, I would foresee they could keep going for 20+ years? Partcularly so if they are cascaded to "secondary" routes with lower linespeeds?

 

[valenta]

I think the Mk3's have plenty of life left in them - even if a pretty major overhaul were required, I would foresee they could keep going for 20+ years? Partcularly so if they are cascaded to "secondary" routes with lower linespeeds?

I agree that MK3's still have time left. I couldn't see railway companies splashing the cash to buy a whole set of new coaches.

 

[announcements]

I agree that MK3's still have time left. I couldn't see railway companies splashing the cash to buy a whole set of new coaches.

What about TOCs purchasing new diesel multiple units? This has been happening gradually over time.

Believe me, I think the Mark 3s have plenty of time left (it is the IEP that is emphasising the urge to build new stock) but in my opinion they won't be the same without the slam-doors - they'll just look like a Mark 4. Now from a business point of view this is great as there will be less dwelling time. From an enthusiast point of view, it isn't great. I don't think I'm being overly controversial here; I'm sure many on here would like to see Mark 3 slam-doors retained even if it is purely for the novelty factor. I am aware that this isn't the best reason to keep slam-doors, but I'm sure others can see where I am coming from.

 

[Skimble19]

Keeping slam doors to please enthusiasts.. can't see that happening if I'm honest!

 

[RichmondCommu]

What about TOCs purchasing new diesel multiple units? This has been happening gradually over time.

Believe me, I think the Mark 3s have plenty of time left (it is the IEP that is emphasising the urge to build new stock) but in my opinion they won't be the same without the slam-doors - they'll just look like a Mark 4. Now from a business point of view this is great as there will be less dwelling time. From an enthusiast point of view, it isn't great. I don't think I'm being overly controversial here; I'm sure many on here would like to see Mark 3 slam-doors retained even if it is purely for the novelty factor. I am aware that this isn't the best reason to keep slam-doors, but I'm sure others can see where I am coming from.

When it comes to enthusiasts, yes I can certainly see where there they are coming from. That said I hark back to the early 80's when HST's were hated because they were killing off the Deltics! I remember a day out with my dad to a Doncaster works open day and seeing all the Deltics laid up waiting to be scrapped. Much to my beloved wife's bemusement I still have the note book!

However I digress! The railways are enjoying a renaissance at the moment with many people using the train for the first time in years and it’s vital that the network is as user friendly as possible.

Although I appreciate that many enthusiasts prefer mk3's and class 87's / 90's, the Pendolino's are much preferred by the travelling public. My in-laws travel down from Preston around every two months for the weekend and as far as they are concerned the Pendolino has brought about a revolution akin to the HST's in the 70's. Their only gripe is that "it’s a funny looking thing!

Let’s hope that a complete HST set finds its way into the National Collection. And hopefully under cover.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, it's an interesting comparison. When looking at what passengers prefer, it might be worth looking at the product as a whole. For example, looking at whether the doors are a problem to people is certainly a good idea, but also looking at the comfort of passenger accommodation in general as well.

Whatever one's views of slam doors, the mark 3 carriage has proved to be popular amongst the public and designers should be looking to see what works as well as what doesn't (such as slam doors).

 

[Lampshade]

Let’s hope that a complete HST set finds its way into the National Collection. And hopefully under cover.

It'd be especially good if 253001 could be reconstructed, 43002 and 003 are still in service, I can only imagine the seven coaches are as well.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well, it's an interesting comparison. When looking at what passengers prefer, it might be worth looking at the product as a whole. For example, looking at whether the doors are a problem to people is certainly a good idea, but also looking at the comfort of passenger accommodation in general as well.

Whatever one's views of slam doors, the mark 3 carriage has proved to be popular amongst the public and designers should be looking to see what works as well as what doesn't (such as slam doors).

I think i can see what you're getting at here but surely the interior design of the Pendolino was necessary for it to be able to tilt. For Lancastrians (and others!) its overall speed has been a big hit. My in-laws have no interest in railways but know it as the Pendolino (and not through my prompting!) which must surely mean that its popular.

 

[yorksrob]

I think i can see what you're getting at here but surely the interior design of the Pendolino was necessary for it to be able to tilt. For Lancastrians (and others!) its overall speed has been a big hit. My in-laws have no interest in railways but know it as the Pendolino (and not through my prompting!) which must surely mean that its popular.

Well, that's true, but your inlaws might well have known of the 125 without prompting. My point is that to the majority of passengers, the presence of slam doors are a peripheral interest. Comfort of the buttocks and space for the legs are far more imprtant. IMO at least

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well, that's true, but your inlaws might well have known of the 125 without prompting. My point is that to the majority of passengers, the presence of slam doors are a peripheral interest. Comfort of the buttocks and space for the legs are far more imprtant. IMO at least

I have to agree leg room could be better (i'm 6'3") but there is a requirement to put as many seats into a vehicle as possible. No matter how much (or little) leg space you have, people would much rather sit than stand. And its certainly better than economy class on a flight when you could be in the air for 9 - 10 hours. I guess seat comfort is down to the individual.

 

[junglejames]

Although I appreciate that many enthusiasts prefer mk3's and class 87's / 90's, the Pendolino's are much preferred by the travelling public.

Incorrect. The Mk3s are prefered over the pendys. Its the speed and extra services that are prefered by the public. Not the actual trains.
The survey that was done found the Mk3s were much prefered.
Which isnt exactly surprising.

I also highly doubt the interior has to be like it is. If a voyager can be rearranged to be a meridian, im sure the pendys could have been built with all the necessary improvements to also have the improved interior. The problem is that no prototype was built. They went straight into production and so couldnt improve them. If anything the voyagers and pendys are all the prototype. An awfully large build of prototype if you ask me.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Could you please show us the survey where the travelling public said they would prefer a Mk3 over a Pendo? (Especially since you say that the public prefer speed and services, not trains, and then claim that they prefer Mk3's)

 

[sprinterguy]

The problem is that no prototype was built. They went straight into production and so couldnt improve them. If anything the voyagers and pendys are all the prototype. An awfully large build of prototype if you ask me.

Well 390001 and 390002 were the prototypes for the Pendolino build: I think it was a February 2001 edition of RAIL Magazine that covered the Old Dalby launch of the two units: They underwent a lot of trials and testings, I think fitted with additional monitoring equipment, prior to the remaining 51 units being delivered, and once the remaining units came on stream they returned to Washwood Heath for fitting out and modifications to bring them in line with the "production" units.

Admittedly, the trials they underwent were more to assess ride quality and reliability than to judge passenger reaction and comfort, and the interior spec had already been set for the whole fleet when 390001 was rolled out, but it's not entirely accurate to say that the Pendo fleet was built without prototypes.

Plus, FIAT Ferroviara (as they were before Alstom took over) already had plenty of experience of building Pendolino trains (Admittedly to the more expansive Continental loading gauge) before the 390s, so it can be argued that prototypes to test out every feature of the train really weren't required.

 

[90019]

The survey that was done found the Mk3s were much prefered.

I've heard about this survey many times, but I have yet to actually see it anywhere.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Incorrect. The Mk3s are prefered over the pendys. Its the speed and extra services that are prefered by the public. Not the actual trains.
The survey that was done found the Mk3s were much prefered.
Which isnt exactly surprising.

I also highly doubt the interior has to be like it is. If a voyager can be rearranged to be a meridian, im sure the pendys could have been built with all the necessary improvements to also have the improved interior. The problem is that no prototype was built. They went straight into production and so couldnt improve them. If anything the voyagers and pendys are all the prototype. An awfully large build of prototype if you ask me.

Could please give me the link to this survey so I can see this for myself? At the moment i have my doubts.

 

[asylumxl]

I saw it in Rail quite a while ago, and I believe 390s were about midway in ratings. But the 222s were prefered over the MK3s.

 

[tbtc]

I've heard about this survey many times, but I have yet to actually see it anywhere.

Agreed.

Trouble with "surveys" is that there's one on most subjects most weeks; I could find one which claimed most things if I wanted

 

[lyndhurst25]

Speaking of Mk3 coaches with their external door-handles, I read somewhere (but can't find it now) something that may be true or perhaps it's just one of those railway myths. It was about when the HSTs where being tested in the 1970s and that experiments were done looking into what happens when the toilets are flushed at 125mph. The engineers flushed buckets of whitewash down the bogs with the train at full speed and apparently the sides of the coaches, including the door handles, got splattered. So that brown muck on the sides of HSTs isn't just brake dust. I've been wary of using the handles ever since I heard this. Yuck...

 

[90019]

Trouble with "surveys" is that there's one on most subjects most weeks; I could find one which claimed most things if I wanted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgyKpkLpccE

 

[Royston Vasey]

Could please give me the link to this survey so I can see this for myself? At the moment i have my doubts.

As posted on here a couple of years ago. A direct comparison between Pendolinos and other intercity (ergo Mk 3 and 4) stock

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/5284640/Train-passengers-unhappy-with-cramped-lavatories-and-poor-luggage-space.html

"By contrast nearly two out of three of passengers who used Virgin's Pendolino trains on the line between London and Scotland were unhappy."

 

[RichmondCommu]

As posted on here a couple of years ago. A direct comparison between Pendolinos and other intercity (ergo Mk 3 and 4) stock

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/5284640/Train-passengers-unhappy-with-cramped-lavatories-and-poor-luggage-space.html

"By contrast nearly two out of three of passengers who used Virgin's Pendolino trains on the line between London and Scotland were unhappy."

Having read the survey i cannot see anything on here which could be described as a direct comparison between Pendolinos and mk3's / mk4's. First Great Western doesn't get a mention and East Coast are only praised for their excellent onboard catering.......

"Trains currently running on these lines are at least 30 years old. Modern trains with better performance and passenger capacity are urgently needed"

 

[Daimler]

Having read the survey i cannot see anything on here which could be described as a direct comparison between Pendolinos and mk3's / mk4's. First Great Western doesn't get a mention and East Coast are only praised for their excellent onboard catering.......

"Trains currently running on these lines are at least 30 years old. Modern trains with better performance and passenger capacity are urgently needed"

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/transit/news/?id=16009

Overall, the Pendolino was rated the worst intercity train. Thus, direct comparison or no direct comparison, the Pendolino was rated lower than the Mk3/Mk4 (and indeed everything else - particularly the 222, to give credit where it's due).

I hope that this assuages doubts as to the existence of the survey...

 

[Lampshade]

Someone already posted the link.

 

[Zoe]

Trouble with "surveys" is that there's one on most subjects most weeks; I could find one which claimed most things if I wanted

Indeed, remember Arriva's survey that customers preferred at seat service was used as justification for remove the shop. I expect if people that were asked knew that an 87/90 and Mark 3 coaches would result in increased journey times to Glasgow then most would prefer the 390s.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Having read the survey i cannot see anything on here which could be described as a direct comparison between Pendolinos and mk3's / mk4's. First Great Western doesn't get a mention and East Coast are only praised for their excellent onboard catering.......

"Trains currently running on these lines are at least 30 years old. Modern trains with better performance and passenger capacity are urgently needed"

Well, by default, intercity stock is Pendolinos, HSTs, 225s, and 22Xs. What else can the Pendolinos be being compared to?? The Pendolino was considered the worst intercity train...

When it came to the overall carriage environment – taking into account noise, air conditioning, temperature and odour, Virgin's Pendolino trains fared worse with a 46 per cent approval rating.

By the way you have misquoted the full quote from Passenger Focus:

Anthony Smith, Passenger Focus chief executive, said the findings should be taken into account when the detailed designs are put together for the new fleet of long distance carriages. Trains currently running on these lines are at least 30 years old. Modern trains with better performance and passenger capacity are urgently needed."

...the implication is that not that the old stock is worst, but that since its replacement is inevitable, the design process to be done must account for poor ratings in the last generation of stock (including Pendolino) as discussed in the article.

I have no real beef with Pendolinos by the way, but when given some evidence you obviously didn't expect to receive, at least give it some credit.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well, by default, intercity stock is Pendolinos, HSTs, 225s, and 22Xs. What else can the Pendolinos be being compared to?? The Pendolino was considered the worst intercity train...



By the way you have misquoted the full quote from Passenger Focus:



...the implication is that not that the old stock is worst, but that since its replacement is inevitable, the design process to be done must account for poor ratings in the last generation of stock (including Pendolino) as discussed in the article.

I have no real beef with Pendolinos by the way, but when given some evidence you obviously didn't expect to receive, at least give it some credit.

Yes the results did come of something of a surprise but without performance ratings for other intercity operators there is still no direct comparison. For instance i think there are very few people on here who could argue that the mk3's on the London to Norwich trains provide a better service than the Pendolinos and yet according to the survey they do.

 

[mallard]

Well, by default, intercity stock is Pendolinos, HSTs, 225s, and 22Xs. What else can the Pendolinos be being compared to??

180s, 444s, 442s, 90+Mk3 possibly 185s, 175s and 158s. All of these are at least "intercity style" to me at least.