Doors on Mk3's

[RichmondCommu]

Just out of curiosity can anyone explain why mk3 coaches were never built with powered doors? They have really stood the test of time apart from the doors which nowadays let them down. Given the major refurbishments that most have been through I’m surprised that nothing has been done about the doors.

Thanks in advance, Richmond Commuter!

 

[AlterEgo]

The doors are fine - as long as you remember the handle's on the outside! I personally look forward to the Pretendolino running my train home, as I often stand in the vestibule with the window down, feeling the blast!

 

[43167]

Probably because it wasnt thought of way back in 1971 when the prototype HST was been designed. However, some were built later with powered doors, but they were mainly the Irish batch. The only UK Mk3's built with them were the Class 442's EMU's.

I think some of the Chiltern Mk3's are getting powered doors.

 

[TomJ93]

^ all the MKIII derived multiple units do!

We window bashers needed a window back then- that's why.

 

[rail-britain]

Electric / powered doors would have been possible
However, for the additional costs and the amount of time used, there was little benefit

Once open the door is fairly to open
Equally, once pushed or pulles they are fairly easy to close
However, at the furthest end of their travel they are relatively difficult to close
Finally, once pushed they are quite difficult to stop (example if someone appears and places their hand across the doorway as happened to me a few times, crunch as the door hits their fingers / knuckles)

This was all due to the increased size and weight of the doors, to the coach design and to allow wider access when compared to older designs

This is also the reason why Class 442 EMUs have powered doors, due to the amount of use the doors would have in comparison

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Dwell times of slam door stock are significantly longer than those with power operated doors though, which is probably why the Chiltern Mk3 coaches are all being modified to have power doors.

 

[jopsuk]

I don't understand why, when central door locking was fitted, they didn't get handles added to the inside of the doors. They're not easy to open from the inside, and I say that as a 1.80m (5' 11") bloke.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Probably because it wasnt thought of way back in 1971 when the prototype HST was been designed. However, some were built later with powered doors, but they were mainly the Irish batch. The only UK Mk3's built with them were the Class 442's EMU's.

I think some of the Chiltern Mk3's are getting powered doors.

^ all the MKIII derived multiple units do!

We window bashers needed a window back then- that's why.

The Mk3s weren't exactly a long term option, a gas powered APT was in the pipeline in the 70s and so power doors were an extra cost that probably wasn't needed, the Mk3 based EMUs and DMUs didn't appear for another decade or more.

 

[DarloRich]

the doors are fine - it is the human operators who have problems! It also helps if you close the door and window when you get out!

 

[junglejames]

Just out of curiosity can anyone explain why mk3 coaches were never built with powered doors? They have really stood the test of time apart from the doors which nowadays let them down. Given the major refurbishments that most have been through I’m surprised that nothing has been done about the doors.

Thanks in advance, Richmond Commuter!

How have the doors let them down? Is it because people are no longer able to open slam doors? Or is it because people are fickle enough to believe slam is bad and auto is good? Because the doors themselves are exactly the same, so i cant see how they now let the Mk3s down, unless it is peoples perceptions.

Admittedly though, whenever im at home, i do think my bedroom is let down by the fact it has a slam door. Why were houses not build with automatic doors?

 

[WestCoast]

The doors are fine, but they should
really have interior handles as some people do struggle with the current operation.

 

[whhistle]

The reason people struggle is because the majority of trains these days have automatic doors. Therefore I would suggest the majority of people think every train does.

Take that programme about the railways that Richard Wilson was in. He suggested "some of the doors had to be opened manually", almost like it was unusual. Yes, apart from the fact it was an HST set

 

[HugePilchard]

The great thing about the Mk3s is that when the door opens, it clears an arc on the platform, so at least you have somewhere to get off; on powered door stock, all too often the space immediately outside the door is full of people determined to get on the train before alighting passengers have got off!

 

[Scotrail84]

The doors are fine, but they should
really have interior handles as some people do struggle with the current operation.

Coaches have been the same for 150 years and people managed no problem. Trouble is nowadays folk want their arses wiped for them ie doors opening/closing automaticly

 

[jopsuk]

a lot of slam door stock used to have internal door handles. Also, it's mainly the doors closing that slows down station dwell times- because you're relying either on people closing it behind them (never a good idea to rely on the travelling public to do something useful) or station staff running along the train (man power intensive and still slow).
the likes of the London underground has had powered sliding for about ninety years.

 

[tbtc]

The great thing about the Mk3s is that when the door opens, it clears an arc on the platform, so at least you have somewhere to get off; on powered door stock, all too often the space immediately outside the door is full of people determined to get on the train before alighting passengers have got off!

I'd like to see this on both sides, to clear a decent space around the door. So many passengers on the platform don't appreciate that if they don't clear a space for people get off the train, then there will be no chance of boarding the train!

As for the doors, it's a nuisance to open from the inside, but not a major problem (although presumably not DDA complaint etc). What is more of a nuisance is seeing your departure delayed because one door out of the whole train hasn't been closed again, meaning someone has to run along the platform to slam it shut again. One of life's little frustrations...

 

[RichmondCommu]

How have the doors let them down? Is it because people are no longer able to open slam doors? Or is it because people are fickle enough to believe slam is bad and auto is good? Because the doors themselves are exactly the same, so i cant see how they now let the Mk3s down, unless it is peoples perceptions.

Admittedly though, whenever im at home, i do think my bedroom is let down by the fact it has a slam door. Why were houses not build with automatic doors?

As others have mentioned the doors are a bit of a pain to open and so for the convenience of the passenger it would be preferable for them to be automatic or at least powered so the driver can shut them from his cab. The SNCF Corail stock were introduced at around the same time as the mk3's and they have powered doors so why not the mk3's?

As has also been mentioned on here with slam doors you are relying on passengers to shut the doors as they leave the train to avoid unnecessary delays. Unfortunately in this day and age people are loathed to take responsibility for anything and will simply retort (in some cases anyway) that its not there responsibility to shut the doors. I don't agree with this attitude but it is sadly prevalent amongst a significant minority. My wife is a PC and faces this kind of nonsense all the time. That’s modern Britain for you.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

As has also been mentioned on here with slam doors you are relying on passengers to shut the doors as they leave the train to avoid unnecessary delays. Unfortunately in this day and age people are loathed to take responsibility for anything and will simply retort (in some cases anyway) that its not there responsibility to shut the doors. I don't agree with this attitude but it is sadly prevalent amongst a significant minority. My wife is a PC and faces this kind of nonsense all the time. That’s modern Britain for you.

I cant agree with this at all. People have been leaving slam doors open on trains since the year dot. It's not something that only the younger generation do, its not something that has only existed in recent years. Its human nature to leave things to others if you are not directly responsible for it.

I will agree that slam doors increase dwell times. It's undeniable. If you are losing a minute at every station because of slam doors it can add to quite a lot over the course of a day. Power doors exist to make life easier for the operator, the fact that passengers prefer them is a happy side effect.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I cant agree with this at all. People have been leaving slam doors open on trains since the year dot. It's not something that only the younger generation do, its not something that has only existed in recent years. Its human nature to leave things to others if you are not directly responsible for it.

I will agree that slam doors increase dwell times. It's undeniable. If you are losing a minute at every station because of slam doors it can add to quite a lot over the course of a day. Power doors exist to make life easier for the operator, the fact that passengers prefer them is a happy side effect.

Thats fair enough. I tend to have rose tinted spectacles when i think back to when i was growing up in the late 70's / early 80's. As far as i'm concerned Mrs T came along and told us to only think of ourselves! I've done well out of Mrs T but i have no time for her.

 

[Flamingo]

Just out of curiosity can anyone explain why mk3 coaches were never built with powered doors? They have really stood the test of time apart from the doors which nowadays let them down. Given the major refurbishments that most have been through I’m surprised that nothing has been done about the doors.

Thanks in advance, Richmond Commuter!

I have been told that the Mk 3 coaches and indeed the whole 125 fleet were only built as a stopgap until the "tilting trains" came on-stream, so the extra cost involved was not considered necessary, as they had a short shelf-life (35 years on, you can see how correct that was!). They originally didn't even have Central Door Locking, that was an add-on in the mid 90's.

One issue around power doors that I have heard is that there is no room on the 36 pin cable to allow for the extra wiring controls that would need to be fitted, whether this is right or not I don't know.

The main reason they have never been upgraded is purely cost, I would suspect.

 

[WestCoast]

Flamingo, do you get annoyed when passengers don't close the door and you have no despatch staff (say at Malvern Link), so you have to run the full length of the train?

I've noticed all the other HST operators tend to have help closing the doors (there are exceptions such as GC at smaller stations), and I think EC carry an extra member of staff in the far north of Scotland? Whereas FGW TMs have to do it themselves!

 

[Flamingo]

Flamingo, do you get annoyed when passengers don't close the door and you have no despatch staff (say at Malvern Link), so you have to run the full length of the train?

Try the South Wales line :roll:. I had a chap at Port Talbot one night a while ago, who closed every door as he walked down the platform. When he came level with me, I said "Thank you very much - you're not from around here, are you?" He burst out laughing, said "No I'm not, is it that obvious" in a broad Scottish accent, and walked off laughing!

 

[Adam_Harrison]

I'm a station ambassador for Grand Central at Hartlepool and when HSTs come in its rare that people close the doors but then again they are filthy so probably don't want too

 

[BestWestern]

I have been told that the Mk 3 coaches and indeed the whole 125 fleet were only built as a stopgap until the "tilting trains" came on-stream, so the extra cost involved was not considered necessary, as they had a short shelf-life (35 years on, you can see how correct that was!). They originally didn't even have Central Door Locking, that was an add-on in the mid 90's.

One issue around power doors that I have heard is that there is no room on the 36 pin cable to allow for the extra wiring controls that would need to be fitted, whether this is right or not I don't know.

The main reason they have never been upgraded is purely cost, I would suspect.

Indeed, the HST's are perhaps the most impressive example of 'stopgap' rolling stock ever! Even more so than the Deltics on the ECML! I'd imagine that cost is the reason for not only the slam doors still being in place, but also the lack of retention toilets. However, presumably this will change under further life-extension work which will not be required for the sets due to remain. I've also heard that each door on a MK3 is individual as they have been 'moulded' over the years due to the constant wind resistance battering them. When one gets damaged for any reason it apparently takes days to get the new or repaired door moulded to fit its aperture. So replacing them with new doors will no doubt be an interesting challenge!

 

[Flamingo]

Indeed, the HST's are perhaps the most impressive example of 'stopgap' rolling stock ever! Even more so than the Deltics on the ECML! I'd imagine that cost is the reason for not only the slam doors still being in place, but also the lack of retention toilets. However, presumably this will change under further life-extension work which will not be required for the sets due to remain. I've also heard that each door on a MK3 is individual as they have been 'moulded' over the years due to the constant wind resistance battering them. When one gets damaged for any reason it apparently takes days to get the new or repaired door moulded to fit its aperture. So replacing them with new doors will no doubt be an interesting challenge!

Which I have also heard as a reason for no "interlock" on them, as they move so much in transit.

 

[ChrisCooper]

As well as the Mk3s, the 312s were also introduced on Outer Suburban services with slam doors around the same time, which lead to their early withdrawal. The inability to work DOO played a bit part in it.

I think the main issue with slam door stock though is the safety aspect, they are not percieved to be as safe. Remember Mk1s were typically refered to as "slam door stock" as if having slam doors was mututally exclusive to Mk1s. This meant that the Mk1 safety issues tended to be carried over to other slam door stock, alongside the issues with slam doors themselves. The HSE played with that too by combining the risk from door related incidents (despite automatic doors not being 100% safe) with the crashworthyness issues to come to the conclusion that Mk1 stock should be banned. Of cource initially they were talking about slam doors without central locking, but the general public don't see that and over time perception changes from something being perfectly safe (even an icon of safety) to being percievied as unsafe, with nothing but the passage of time to explain it. Of cource these things can be turned on their heads too. When the Routemasters were being withdrawn, one argument to support it was the safety issue with the open platform. Now the "Borismaster" is coming and has an open platform.

 

[jopsuk]

Now the "Borismaster" is coming and has an open platform.

That platform has a door. The door might be able to be open if there's a conductor on board and present at the rear. Maybe. Despite the hype, there's unlikely to be a conductor on board much. One of the things that contributed to Routemasters being withdrawn from all but heritage services was, along with the lack of accesibility, the need for a conductor and the number of idiots getting badly hurt jumping on and off them whilst the bus was moving.

 

[Yew]

Maybe if we say The IEP is a stopgap measure until we get maglevs, it will turn out well?

 

[junglejames]

As others have mentioned the doors are a bit of a pain to open and so for the convenience of the passenger it would be preferable for them to be automatic or at least powered so the driver can shut them from his cab. The SNCF Corail stock were introduced at around the same time as the mk3's and they have powered doors so why not the mk3's?

As has also been mentioned on here with slam doors you are relying on passengers to shut the doors as they leave the train to avoid unnecessary delays. Unfortunately in this day and age people are loathed to take responsibility for anything and will simply retort (in some cases anyway) that its not there responsibility to shut the doors. I don't agree with this attitude but it is sadly prevalent amongst a significant minority. My wife is a PC and faces this kind of nonsense all the time. That’s modern Britain for you.

When people say they are a pain to open, what they really mean is they want everything done for them.
Its only a pain for people who physically cannot open them. But there is nearly always someone nearby to help, so not a problem.
The only advantage with automatic doors is the small difference in dwell time if someone leaves the slam door open. If (as is normal) the last person always shuts the door, then id be surprised if there is any difference in dwell time. After all, slam doors should be quicker to open and close. Certainly with me they are. Im off the train within 5 secs of the doors being unlocked, and the door is shut 5 secs after i have passed through it. That can never be achieved with auto doors.

 

[tbtc]

When people say they are a pain to open, what they really mean is they want everything done for them.
Its only a pain for people who physically cannot open them. But there is nearly always someone nearby to help, so not a problem.
The only advantage with automatic doors is the small difference in dwell time if someone leaves the slam door open. If (as is normal) the last person always shuts the door, then id be surprised if there is any difference in dwell time. After all, slam doors should be quicker to open and close. Certainly with me they are. Im off the train within 5 secs of the doors being unlocked, and the door is shut 5 secs after i have passed through it. That can never be achieved with auto doors.

Put it this way, you wouldn't design a new train with a system where you have to pull down the window and twist an external handle to get off a train (thats assuming you can physically do this, of course), then assume that passengers will close all fifteen doors behind them (or ensure that staff are available to run down the platform slamming doors), would you?