Doors not even opening

[ralphchadkirk]

No, I don't tend to go around upsetting kids because I am unable to get a job on a real railway, mainly because I don't particularly want a job on the real railway, I prefer it as a hobby, and because the visitors we get don't do dumbass things like you.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Talk to the hand, cos the face ain't listening to your rubbish!

 

[mumrar]

Whilst I see this thread rapidly spiralling downhill, could the person(s) who asked me to define emergency please find some time to respond, with note taken to the analogy in my answer.

Thank you.

 

[90019]

Talk to the hand, cos the face ain't listening to your rubbish!1

Are you 4 years old?

 

[Oswyntail]

I was asked to define emergency, so I'll try. Imagine you're driving to an important meeting down a motorway. Unfortunately you miss your exit from the motorway. Would you then pull on to the hard shoulder and dial 999 for police assistance? Probably not, if it was me I would continue on to the next available exit and turnaround, or replan my route from that exit. That, to my mind, is an equivalent scenario to missing your station, regardless of who is to blame.

I think the element that makes the difference here is who is in control. In your scenario, you are, and you know you have made a mistake. In the one from the OP, the passenger is not in control, has no idea what is going on, and is likely to be (to an extent) distressed. For them it is an emergency.
There are many situations where an untrained member of the public thinks a situation is worse than it is known to be by trained operatives (whether on the railways, in a hospital, in IT support, or calling Green Flag - anywhere where an expert is called to help out). I would always remind the staff I was responsible for that the client does not know what is happening, and is likely to be upset, and should be treated with consideration because of that - just because it is not an emergency to the support staff does not mean it is not an emergency to the client.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I was asked to define emergency, so I'll try. Imagine you're driving to an important meeting down a motorway. Unfortunately you miss your exit from the motorway. Would you then pull on to the hard shoulder and dial 999 for police assistance? Probably not, if it was me I would continue on to the next available exit and turnaround, or replan my route from that exit. That, to my mind, is an equivalent scenario to missing your station, regardless of who is to blame.

Missing your stop on the motorway is different, as it would be your own fault, and you have the ability to use the next exit and drive to where you are going. On a train, if you miss your stop, you are potentially stranded. If the doors on my train were not released, there would be no need to dial 999, as I have the ability to open the doors by pulling the egress. Problem solved.

 

[Wyvern]

Something similar happened to my daughter the other Saturday.

The train arrived at Belper. A bloke was leaving by the front door of a 158,. Behind him was a woman with a push chair, behind her my daughter.

The bloke alighted but the woman got here push chair stuck, trapping herself and my daughter. The guard, being at the rear on the platform, saw none of this, closed the doors and gave the right away.

The next stop was Ambergate and, they having phoned for a taxi, he gave them a fiver for the fare back to Belper.

Well done EMT.

 

[mumrar]

I can certainly agree with a lot of your response, but whilst a customer could find this situation both distressing or upsetting, neither would make it serious enough to be deemed an emergency. Speaking from experience of complacency, for everytime a passcom is activated without a genuine emergency situation (particularly in my 170 disabled toilets!), it will dilute the reaction and expectation upon hearing the alarm. This is only a human characteristic, such as the story of the boy who cried wolf. Although I always respond quickly to a passcom and find out where it is, my mind is always drawn, and very often correctly, to the disabled toilet. The failures in these alarms design placement, and the customers belief that a big bright red button marked 'EMERGENCY' could actually be the door lock, need discussing elsewhere.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Perhaps the customer should phone customer services before pulling the cord to find out if it is an emergency or not, to prevent the risk of upsetting a member of railway staff.

 

[mumrar]

Missing your stop on the motorway is different, as it would be your own fault, and you have the ability to use the next exit and drive to where you are going. On a train, if you miss your stop, you are potentially stranded. If the doors on my train were not released, there would be no need to dial 999, as I have the ability to open the doors by pulling the egress. Problem solved.

As we've only heard the OPs side, it could well be the fault of the customer in this instance. Your carte blanche response of the egress is there so I can use it isn't really a form of logic that stacks up. If I missed my stop on a bus (God knows why I'd be on one, but let's be hypothetical) I wouldn't burst open the emergency door at the back and jump out 'because I could, problem solved'.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If I missed my stop on a bus (God knows why I'd be on one, but let's be hypothetical) I wouldn't burst open the emergency door at the back and jump out 'because I could, problem solved'.

But distances between bus stops tend not to be as far as between train stations. And I would use the door release on the bus rather than the emergency exit.

 

[GB]

Missing your stop on the motorway is different, as it would be your own fault, and you have the ability to use the next exit and drive to where you are going. On a train, if you miss your stop, you are potentially stranded. If the doors on my train were not released, there would be no need to dial 999, as I have the ability to open the doors by pulling the egress. Problem solved.

So if you missed your stop becuase it was your fault, you wouldn't then pull the chord?

If its the train operators fault you missed the stop then they have a duty of care to get you from the next calling point to your original station. If there are no trains then they will provide alternative transport.

 

[O L Leigh]

I've been accused of failing to give a door release a few times, but on each ocassion I actually had given the release. Turns out that in most instances the passenger in question was either pressing the "close" button or had failed to notice which side of the train the platform was on.

At the risk of getting flamed (for that is the direction this thread seems to be taking), we only have the OP's secondhand account of the incident. Do we know for sure that the OP's friend is accurately reporting the true events? One detail that strikes me as odd is that he had clearly gone down to the station with the intention of meeting his friend off a specific train but all the services he saw stopped correctly and the doors were opened. So how come he didn't get off the train? I have to be honest and say that it sounds like he missed his stop and has made up a story to hide his embarrasment.

However, if he is telling the truth then going to speak to the guard is the correct action. If it causes particular problems then he may wish to back that up by writing to the TOC giving details of the incident.

Just to confirm for Surreytraveller that pulling a cord as a consequence of missing your station is misuse of the equipment. It should be obvious what constitutes an emergency and so I'm not going to play your silly semantic games.

O L Leigh

 

[mumrar]

Perhaps the customer should phone customer services before pulling the cord to find out if it is an emergency or not, to prevent the risk of upsetting a member of railway staff.

Perhaps when feeling that your point is becoming conceeded, whilst engaging in an informed discussion with other members of this forum, you could choose another response than regressing to your childhood with antagonistic posts such as this and the one about your hand and face.

 

[GB]

But distances between bus stops tend not to be as far as between train stations. And I would use the door release on the bus rather than the emergency exit.

Distance between stops or their precived security really has nothing to do with anything. And you would really pull the emergency release on a moving bus...how about simply going up and talking to the driver

 

[Surreytraveller]

So if you missed your stop becuase it was your fault, you wouldn't then pull the chord?

Depends what mood I was in, in the location. If I knew I could easily get back, then no. If I knew I would have difficulty, then yes. So what? Who actually cares? The crew reset it, and off the train goes. Maybe a five minute delay max.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The failures in these alarms design placement, and the customers belief that a big bright red button marked 'EMERGENCY' could actually be the door lock, need discussing elsewhere.

The disabled toilets really need proper physical locks on them. The number of times people have walked in on someone on the toilet because of the non existance of a proper lock. Then the toilets go out of order, locking someone in them. They are the most ridiculous design I've known.

 

[GB]

Depends what mood I was in, in the location. If I knew I could easily get back, then no. If I knew I would have difficulty, then yes. So what? Who actually cares? The crew reset it, and off the train goes. Maybe a five minute delay max.

Thats also 5 minutes to the rest of the passengers on the train, resulting in a late arrival, resulting in fines. Then there is the knock on effect to other services resulting in more fines, complaints and bad press....all because of one of one sellfish individual.

You say who cares...well you obviously dont which speaks wonders about your attitude.

 

[O L Leigh]

The last person who pulled a door release on me caused me 20 minutes of delay. The problem was that it was the last coach on a non-corridor 8 car train and it had come up in a heap between stations. It was one of the last trains down in the evening and the rest of the passengers were not best pleased. They all got home late, as did I.

O L Leigh

 

[northwichcat]

But distances between bus stops tend not to be as far as between train stations. And I would use the door release on the bus rather than the emergency exit.

Bus drivers quite often let off passengers between stops if they have struggled to get through a crowd of people standing on the bus and the driver has pulled away from the stop without seeing them, so no need for any emergency buttons just a quick word with the driver.

 

[dan_atki]

Although I'm aware things have calmed down now, can we have less of the flaming please.

 

[northwichcat]

What about the following scanerio for an emergency:

You are on the last train of the day and intended to alight at the second to last stop but the doors didn't open. The taxi drivers in the area are on strike (that can happen even if it's not as common as train staff on strike.) If you stay on the train until the last stop you are 10 miles away from home for 6 hours in freezing conditions.


Relating to pulling it in an emergency aren't there lots of emergencies where it's best not to pull the cord? E.g. If someone has a heart attack on the train then surly you want the train to stop at the next station and an ambulance to get to that station ASAP. You don't want to delay the train by stopping it mid-station?

 

[snowkitten]

I would suggest complaining to Customer Relations who should ensure that an OTMR download is taken which I believe records if the doors have been opened or not. If it proves that they haven't then I think that Guard may get a little telling off and your friend will get some compensation.

 

[johnb]

Just to confirm for Surreytraveller that pulling a cord as a consequence of missing your station is misuse of the equipment. It should be obvious what constitutes an emergency and so I'm not going to play your silly semantic games.

Yes to "as a consequence of missing your station" - clearly, if I doze through my stop and only notice when the train's pulling out, and then I activate the alarm, that's misuse.

However, that isn't the situation that the OP is claiming occurred here (I'm also sceptical that it happened as described, but let's assume it did). In this case, activating the alarm as a consequence of the guard failing to release the doors at a stop, or inform passengers that the stop was being skipped, isn't misuse - it's a legitimate notification that something is wrong.

(it also wouldn't have the impact you described in your post, as the train would be at a platform and so length & lack of corridor connections wouldn't be relevant.)

Obviously, pulling two cords to annoy and delay the crew would be misuse under any circumstances, and massively pathetic behaviour.

 

[yorkie]

Pulling the chord because you missed your stop because you were not paying enough attention is clearly an inappropriate use and should be punished with a fine.

Pulling the chord (once) because the doors failed to open due to no fault of your own, is quite clearly not the same thing.

The byelaw is clearly intended to refer to when you miss your stop, that's what it appears to say to me! It clearly doesn't cover the incredibly rare occasion that the train doors fail to open or if someone gets stuck in the doors, etc. That's quite different.

On the subject of missing stops, at just before midnight 2 days ago I was asked if the train had called at Leeds. I said yes and informed him of the next train back being 01:38. So he had 1 hr 30 mins wait in York and would have got back around 2 and a half hours late. Ouch! Still, could have been a lot worse at that time! In such a circumstance it would be inappropriate to pull the alarm (and it wasn't before anyone asks).

I did witness a train be delayed at York station on 20th September approx 11:50 due to a passenger pulling the alarm because he had missed his stop (his own fault). I made it clear to him while he was waiting for BTP to be called what I thought of that action! I asked if he was proud of himself for delaying hundreds of people. He declined to answer. It's not acceptable when it's your own fault, that is very clear!

 

[royaloak]

Talk to the hand, cos the face ain't listening to your rubbish!

Which sums you, and a lot of other passengers, up perfectly!

 

[t0ffeeman]

Anyone who thinks that missing you're stop (for whatever reason) is an emergency will not pass their rules exam.Fact.
....and also will not work for the railway.

 

[yorkie]

Anyone who thinks that missing your stop (for whatever reason) is an emergency will not pass their rules exam.Fact.
....and also will not work for the railway.

For some people, particularly vulnerable people, missing a stop could lead to an "emergency". There is clearly a big difference between what the OP says happened here, and someone just missing it due to not paying attention.

I urge the OP to ensure the matter is reported and dealt with. Please do let us know how you get on. Do not let them fob you off. Take it to the highest level.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Then they should dial 999

 

[yorkie]

Isn't it better that customers are looked after and it doesn't get to that stage?

It shouldn't even get to the stage of a customer having to pull the alarm either.

But if it comes to it, the police do sometimes have to be called, here is an example from Ryanair, although not the same circumstances, the result could be the same.

The railways are generally much better than that though, although a minority of anti-customer staff appear to try their best not to be, and give the whole industry a bad name.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Emergency chords are for emergencies! Close to death, fire etc. Not delayed for 5 to 30 mins. Emergency means that, its got sod all to do wilth customer service.

Don't mess around the emergency services else whilst they're dealing with your customer service call someone else is dying.