Doors closing long before departure

[tom1996]

Today, (not the first time) on a SWR service from Waterloo the doors were locked 3 minutes before the departure time at waterloo. This lead to a lot of passengers being left on the platform. What’s the procedure in this circumstance, can this happen? It was always my impression that they lock them 45 seconds before - seemed very unfair to passengers and the member of staff in question had an awful attitude. Also this tends to happen routinely.

 

[AlterEgo]

Today, (not the first time) on a SWR service from Waterloo the doors were locked 3 minutes before the departure time at waterloo. This lead to a lot of passengers being left on the platform. What’s the procedure in this circumstance, can this happen? It was always my impression that they lock them 45 seconds before - seemed very unfair to passengers and the member of staff in question had an awful attitude. Also this tends to happen routinely.

Do you know why they did it? Was it massively overcrowded, or what?

3 minutes is quite excessive otherwise.

 

[tom1996]

This happens at least once a week and it isn’t ever busy, somtimes I wonder maybe it is because Waterloo is under such pressure. But it is unacceptable to leave at least 10 people behind when it was still before the 45 sec period. Often when making connections (especially at Waterloo with delays and the large size) it comes down to that amount of time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably there is a published time before departure - there is at Euston (2 mins for VTWC, 30 seconds for LNR I think). Under no circumstances should the close button be pressed until that cut-off.

 

[infobleep]

South Western Railway advertise 30 seconds at many stations but I don't know about Waterloo. That might be longer but it isn't 2 minutes, 1 at most.

 

[tom1996]

It’s 45 secs

 

[Carlisle]

Presumably there is a published time before departure - there is at Euston (2 mins for VTWC, 30 seconds for LNR

What’s the reason they’re permitted to close train doors 2 minutes, prior to departure? 30 -45 seconds sounds perfectly reasonable, but 2 minutes is way over the top .

 

[Bletchleyite]

What’s the reason they’re permitted to close train doors 2 minutes, prior to departure? 30 -45 seconds sounds perfectly reasonable, but 2 minutes is way over the top .

It's the platform gate they close rather than the doors, and it's so everyone who passes through it has enough time to board without causing delay.

 

[Carlisle]

It's the platform gate they close rather than the doors, and it's so everyone who passes through it has enough time to board without causing delay.

Oh right, thanks .

 

[mresh91]

What was the train service in question?

 

[tom1996]

What was the train service in question?

It was a Waterloo to Reading service.

 

[furnessvale]

It's the platform gate they close rather than the doors, and it's so everyone who passes through it has enough time to board without causing delay.

Thanks for that. Quite a different situation!

 

[SevenEightNine]

I can think of a few sources of error. The guard may have read the time incorrectly, or the platform clocks may have been showing the wrong time in the first place. Or perhaps they saw the signal clear and decided it must be time to go.

But unless the train left immediately, I'd think that someone would've spotted the error and the doors would be re-released?

 

[bb21]

Staff are only human and sometimes they make mistakes, be it traincrew, rostering, train planning, etc. The error could have come from any of those, plus more.

I'm sure if you raise a complaint the matter will be investigated, if not already, and suitable compensation issued if you were delayed as a result.

Waterloo publish a 45 second dispatch policy so doors should not be closed before then.

I doubt it is a daily occurrence that doors of your train close earlier than intended, but if that were indeed the case, you need to bring it to the TOC's attention so it can be looked at fully. Reading routes have onboard GPS which can prove your allegations very easily.

 

[mallard]

There's no good reason why doors are closed/locked before the official departure time. it makes a complete mockery of the entire point of a timetable and is an underhanded way of shortening the already (in many cases) absurdly short "minimum connection time".

If trains need a short period of time between doors closing/locking and departure, this should be accomodated by having the working timetable departure 30s/1m later than the public timetable departure.

 

[scrapy]

I've known train doors be closed and locked 5 minutes before departure time when a train is full to prevent others attempting to board. Presumably this wasn't the case on the train the OP observed?

 

[Moonshot]

There's no good reason why doors are closed/locked before the official departure time. it makes a complete mockery of the entire point of a timetable and is an underhanded way of shortening the already (in many cases) absurdly short "minimum connection time".

If trains need a short period of time between doors closing/locking and departure, this should be accomodated by having the working timetable departure 30s/1m later than the public timetable departure.

Absolute rubbish, trains are scheduled to depart exactly on the time it says in timetable. Passengers are warned that doors will be closed 30 seconds before departure as a minimum. Come and work in the industry and you will see exactly why I m right.

 

[mallard]

Absolute rubbish, trains are scheduled to depart exactly on the time it says in timetable. Passengers are warned that doors will be closed 30 seconds before departure as a minimum. Come and work in the industry and you will see exactly why I m right.

I know that is what happens. I'm saying it shoudn't be.

It makes no sense; why advertise a departure time that's meaningless? It's often neither the last boarding time or the departure time (for other reasons the WTT and PTT departure times don't always match and, of course, delays happen). At the very least, the reduction in time should be taken into account for minimum connection times, most of which are unchanged from the days of unlocked slam-door stock where passengers could alight immediately as the train stopped (or even before!) and board right up until the last second. The loss of up to 2 minutes of time due to modern locking doors makes many "minimum connection times" utterly absurd.

 

[bahnause]

Come and work in the industry and you will see exactly why I m right.

I work in the industry for >20 years and I don't see the point of closing doors before departure time. If it is necessary for timekeeping, the timetable is broken and should be fixed. No need to make it more complicated for the customer. The journey planner doesn't show me a door closing time.

 

[Moonshot]

I work in the industry for >20 years and I don't see the point of closing doors before departure time. If it is necessary for timekeeping, the timetable is broken and should be fixed. No need to make it more complicated for the customer. The journey planner doesn't show me a door closing time.

Im afraid your 20 years count for nothing. The train departs exactly on the time shown on the timetable. Its that simple. Passengers are advised ( and have been for many years ) that doors will be closed up to 30 seconds before departure. That is the reality.

 

[Moonshot]

I know that is what happens. I'm saying it shoudn't be.

It makes no sense; why advertise a departure time that's meaningless? It's often neither the last boarding time or the departure time (for other reasons the WTT and PTT departure times don't always match and, of course, delays happen). At the very least, the reduction in time should be taken into account for minimum connection times, most of which are unchanged from the days of unlocked slam-door stock where passengers could alight immediately as the train stopped (or even before!) and board right up until the last second. The loss of up to 2 minutes of time due to modern locking doors makes many "minimum connection times" utterly absurd.

Im afraid your wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Im afraid your wrong.

I agree with him. The public timetable should show the last time you can board/pass any barrier that will be closed; the working timetable should show a "wheels rolling" time of between 30 seconds and 2 minutes after the public timetable to take account of this.

 

[mallard]

Im afraid your wrong.

Very informative there... What's "wrong"? (Also, it's "you're" in this context, BTW) Are you saying the PTT and WTT always match or that minimum connection times do take into account door opening/unlocking and closing/locking times and therefore have been updated since the days of unlocked slam-doors?

Those are the two main "facts" that I presented, so if I'm wrong, it much be one of those... If you're accusing my opinion of the absurd situation of being "wrong" then you need to look up "opinion" in a dictionary.

Passengers are advised ( and have been for many years ) that doors will be closed up to 30 seconds before departure.

Actually, you're (provably) wrong about that. Door closure times are between 30 and 45 seconds before departure depending on TOC and station.

 

[Moonshot]

Very informative there... What's "wrong"? (Also, it's "you're" in this context, BTW) Are you saying the PTT and WTT always match or that minimum connection times do take into account door opening/unlocking and closing/locking times and therefore have been updated since the days of unlocked slam-doors?

Those are the two main "facts" that I presented, so if I'm wrong, it much be one of those... If you're accusing my opinion of the absurd situation of being "wrong" then you need to look up "opinion" in a dictionary.



Actually, you're (provably) wrong about that. Door closure times are between 30 and 45 seconds before departure depending on TOC and station.

Like I said, you are wrong. But in any event, your opinion matters not one jot. Timetables show departure times, that is a fact, and that actually means when the train starts to move. If you want to get into the industry, you might want to brush up on your facts. We close doors ( and advertise the fact ) before departure time, so as the trains can get away at exactly the time they are supposed to. It doesnt come much simpler than that.

 

[bahnause]

It doesnt come much simpler than that.

For the railway or for the customer?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like I said, you are wrong. But in any event, your opinion matters not one jot. Timetables show departure times, that is a fact, and that actually means when the train starts to move. If you want to get into the industry, you might want to brush up on your facts. We close doors ( and advertise the fact ) before departure time, so as the trains can get away at exactly the time they are supposed to.

We know that, and we are saying that from a passenger's point of view we don't believe that is the right approach.

 

[mallard]

Like I said, you are wrong

You keep using the word "wrong", but seem incapable of explaining what exactly is "wrong"... Are you sure you know what that word means? "You are wrong" means something vastly different from "I disagree with you", which is what you actually appear to actually be saying...

Timetables show departure times, that is a fact, and that actually means when the train starts to move.

Yes, the railway's internal Working Timetable does indeed show that. The Public Timetable is often different, for various reasons (e.g. wanting to present a "clockface" timetable to passengers even though actual departures can vary by a few minutes, the effect of minor changes like TSRs, etc).

you might want to brush up on your facts.

Well, if you tell me which facts I've got wrong, that would be most helpful...

 

[infobleep]

I know that is what happens. I'm saying it shoudn't be.

It makes no sense; why advertise a departure time that's meaningless? It's often neither the last boarding time or the departure time (for other reasons the WTT and PTT departure times don't always match and, of course, delays happen). At the very least, the reduction in time should be taken into account for minimum connection times, most of which are unchanged from the days of unlocked slam-door stock where passengers could alight immediately as the train stopped (or even before!) and board right up until the last second. The loss of up to 2 minutes of time due to modern locking doors makes many "minimum connection times" utterly absurd.

It's no different to shops that say they close at 5. If you go in 4.55 they may not let you in. Your purpose maybe very quick though.

 

[infobleep]

Im afraid your 20 years count for nothing. The train departs exactly on the time shown on the timetable. Its that simple. Passengers are advised ( and have been for many years ) that doors will be closed up to 30 seconds before departure. That is the reality.

Well at Clapham Junction the x19 to Basingstoke doesn't depart as show. on the timetable. The working timetable has it depart 1 minute later at x20. So it is possible to vary the times, when it's considered worth doing. Otherwise why would they have done it at Clapham Junction?

 

[Esker-pades]

I know that is what happens. I'm saying it shoudn't be.

It makes no sense; why advertise a departure time that's meaningless? It's often neither the last boarding time or the departure time (for other reasons the WTT and PTT departure times don't always match and, of course, delays happen). At the very least, the reduction in time should be taken into account for minimum connection times, most of which are unchanged from the days of unlocked slam-door stock where passengers could alight immediately as the train stopped (or even before!) and board right up until the last second. The loss of up to 2 minutes of time due to modern locking doors makes many "minimum connection times" utterly absurd.

Public departures often advertise trains departing earlier than the WTT suggests. The biggest variation I have seen is 3 minutes (advertised 06:20, WTT 06:23).

Honestly though, if the departure time is 16:25, then it is reasonable for people arriving on the platform at 16:24:59 to be left behind.