Doors closing long before departure

[tom1996]

I have already stated the 8:07 Waterloo to Reading.

Absolutely ridiculous claim and completely incorrect.

As I said before, your claims can be verified very quickly if you can identify the train in question. Mistakes can happen, but to claim this is deliberate is defamatory.

The train leaving before the 45 second cut off happens on a daily basis. There’s signage on platforms that indicate this. I can tell you this is a common view point shared amongst passengers.

 

[bb21]

I have already stated the 8:07 Waterloo to Reading.


The train leaving before the 45 second cut off happens on a daily basis. There’s signage on platforms that indicate this. I can tell you this is a common view point shared amongst passengers.

Really? Let's look at some facts shall we?

I just had a contact look up the figures for me from the onboard data recorder.

6th August: door close 08.06.26, train departed 08.06.52
3rd August: door close 08.07.08, train departed 08.07.32
2nd August: door close 08.06.24, train departed 08.06.47
1st August: door close 08.09.xx, train departed 08.10.xx
31st July: cancelled (industrial action)
30th July: door close 08.11.xx, train departed 08.12.xx

I see no need to look further back. Where is your "daily basis"?

I think everyone can understand the frustration with the way things are at the moment, but you shouldn't pass a rant off as facts when you haven't the evidence to actually back these claims up.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think what is more important is a consistent and meaningful message across board, eg. posters at all stations showing "Don't leave it to the last minute" in eye-catching style with slightly smaller (but still obvious) fonts below explaining "If you arrive at the platform less than one minute before your train is scheduled to depart (2 minutes at major terminals*), you may not be able to board your chosen service as we need to ensure the dispatch process is given sufficient time to complete safely for the service's punctual departure." The asterisk can then show a list below that stating the major terminals.

I think the problem with that approach is you're basically telling people to add up to a minute to their (actual or perceived) journey times. (At least, to the journeys of those people who would normally arrive just before the train leaves). To be fair, one minute is fairly marginal, but even so, it is still a difference that will make trains slightly less attractive compared to cars, especially for short journeys.

Consider too that the people who tend to arrive just before the train leaves - and so are the people who would be affected by the policy you're suggesting are exactly the people who are probably most concerned about minimizing their journey times, and so most likely to swap to cars if they think the train takes too long. Also, at any stations without shelter (obviously, not Waterloo), that extra minute consists of standing around, possibly in the rain etc.

I do agree with you about a consistent and meaningful message across the board, but I would still maintain that if you want to make the railways most attractive to the public, then that message should be: The departure time advertised in the public timetable is the latest time by which you need to be on the train. And after all, in - I'm guessing, almost all cases - you don't need to actually change anything that happens in terms of train running times to achieve that message. You just need to change what's printed in the public-facing timetables.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

xx33: Abusive tweet to TOC as to why train hasn’t departed ‘on time’ as advertised.

As opposed to xx:33: Abusive tweet to TOC as to why train left 30 seconds early as advertised, causing me to miss it, and I now have to wait an hour for the next one.

I think it should be obvious which of those tweets is going to cause more public sympathy, and more bad publicity for the TOC.

 

[DelW]

No need to pick on any TOC. It is industry standard that "departure" time is wheel start and "arrival" time is wheel stop. Not very intuitive? Possibly. But if you have a problem with that, you need to take it up with Network Rail/ORR/DfT. The TOCs can't do anything about it. They are instructed to use these measures.

Accepting those definitions, but wouldn't they be measured against the times in the working timetable rather than the public timetable? It's well known that the working and public timetables often differ by a minute or two. Since different TOCs and different stations seem to apply different door-closing margins, it would seem to be more helpful to passengers if the working timetable showed wheel start and wheel stop, and the public timetable showed intended door closing time and door opening time, since those are what really matter to passengers.
I know that's not how it's done at the moment, but is there any reason why that couldn't be made the standard in the future? It may not make any significant difference at your starting station, where you can always aim to get there a minute or two early, but as others have said, it can be crucial when making tight connections.

 

[jon0844]

As opposed to xx:33: Abusive tweet to TOC as to why train left 30 seconds early as advertised, causing me to miss it, and I now have to wait an hour for the next one.

I think it should be obvious which of those tweets is going to cause more public sympathy, and more bad publicity for the TOC.

I guess it depends on whether your needs outweigh those of 1500 people on the train (all of whom made it in time) who would like not to miss a path and end up arriving late at their destination!

 

[Moonshot]

I guess it depends on whether your needs outweigh those of 1500 people on the train (all of whom made it in time) who would like not to miss a path and end up arriving late at their destination!

A fact that appears to be lost on a lot of posters. It really is simple....a train departs at the time it says on the timetable.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I guess it depends on whether your needs outweigh those of 1500 people on the train (all of whom made it in time) who would like not to miss a path and end up arriving late at their destination!

Hmmm, possibly we're talking at cross purposes. I'm certainly not talking about any train missing any path. What I thought we were talking about was the problem of public timetables showing departure times that are later then the time the train doors are intended to be closed. As an example, say a train is scheduled to have its doors closed at 11:23 and 30 seconds. In the public timetable, you can't show the 30 seconds because the public timetable only shows the nearest minute. So you have two choices:

1. Show the departure time as 11:24 - which seems to be standard practice at the moment, and seems to be what you are arguing for. I'm arguing that this can lead to people missing their train because they believe the public timetable and therefore arrive on the platform just before 11:24.
2. Show the departure time as 11:23, using the principle that the departure time shown in public timetables should always be the latest full-minute time at which you can guarantee to get on the train. I think this would be better as it would mean people who are going by the public timetable (in other words, almost everyone) would be sure to arrive at the platform on time.

If I've understood you correctly, you appear to be saying that (2) would cause a problem of people sending abusive tweets to the TOC because they think their train is departing a minute late. My point is that that's a far less serious problem than what (1) would cause: People sending abusive tweets because they missed their train because, and from their point of view - based on the information in the public timetable - it looks like the train doors closed 30 seconds too early

 

[yorkie]

The easy solution is to amend the public timetable so the times shown are 1 minute before the working timetable. This already happens at numerous stations anyway (e.g. LNER at Stevenage northbound)

 

[jon0844]

The easy solution is to amend the public timetable so the times shown are 1 minute before the working timetable. This already happens at numerous stations anyway (e.g. LNER at Stevenage northbound)

Indeed it does, and in most cases it doesn't apply to dwell times (exceptions being Intercity trains and guard-operated stock). Most of the time, the train comes in, doors open and the doors close when everyone is on - unless it arrived early.

It's really just trains starting their journey, and this is where it's arguably easier to board in plenty of time.

 

[DelW]

A fact that appears to be lost on a lot of posters. It really is simple....a train departs at the time it says on the timetable.

The train [should] depart at the time it says in the working timetable ... which may differ from the public timetable by a minute or more. So it might be preferable for the public timetable to show the time at which the doors will be closed ... which is what matters to most passengers.

 

[theironroad]

Really? Let's look at some facts shall we?

I just had a contact look up the figures for me from the onboard data recorder.

6th August: door close 08.06.26, train departed 08.06.52
3rd August: door close 08.07.08, train departed 08.07.32
2nd August: door close 08.06.24, train departed 08.06.47
1st August: door close 08.09.xx, train departed 08.10.xx
31st July: cancelled (industrial action)
30th July: door close 08.11.xx, train departed 08.12.xx

I see no need to look further back. Where is your "daily basis"?

I think everyone can understand the frustration with the way things are at the moment, but you shouldn't pass a rant off as facts when you haven't the evidence to actually back these claims up.

From the opening post I found this scenario hard to believe, especially at Waterloo where station staff dispatch. I've never heard of doors being closed 3 minutes before departure on swr/swt unless there is a fault on the train which needs a train reboot or attaching/detaching.

The OPs initial vagueness and subsequent comments added to my suspicions.

As to a train 'breaking down at speed' and that longer distance trains don't station skip, well I look forward to the explanation on the former and longer distance swr trains often station skip if needed to operationally in order to attempt a right time departure for the next service to prevent knock on delays for the rolling stock and the train crew.

For those who don't know, swr policy is to start the door closing process at T minus 30 seconds (where T is the departure time) at all stations except Waterloo where it is T minus 45 seconds.

 

[michael74]

I am amazed by this forum, nowhere else can you read such a passionate debate about the seconds prior to the closing of doors and a timetabled departure of a train. For what its worth here is a point of view of someone else, I'm going to pretend that I know nothing about the minutiae of train travel, because if you do then your view is not totally objective.....

If according to the website/printed timetable/poster timetable or PIS says my train to X is departing platform 4 at 08:45 I will want to be on that train/platform before the appointed time. I know that in the UK we shut our doors slightly before the departure time as it is widely advertised throughout the stations, as I am a member of public who is not a regular commuter also not being in the industry nor being a member of an online railway forum I am not aware of the 15 second difference between some TOCS and stations, however I know that the staff want the train away at 08:45 that is after all the departure time. So in my mind I will make sure I am at the station and on the platform in good time to get that train. If some people choose for whatever reasons to attempt to board the train with seconds to spare as the doors are closing or dispatch process has started then that is their decision, if they miss it then that is no-one elses fault but their own, and if anything they are going to hack off those who have bothered to get to the station on time especially if the dispatch staff need to restart the dispatch process. The absolute vast majority of people who travel via most modes of public transport know to be there before the mode of transport leaves not as it due to leave.

I am just surprised no-one has mentioned the seats on their journey..... yet....

 

[jon0844]

You will even get people moaning when a train left after the time, on the basis that it's 'always late'!!

I'll admit that I've been guilty of assuming a train will be late, and missing the odd one, but I don't moan to anyone about it!

 

[Esker-pades]

Intercity trains close their doors a maximum of 2 minutes before departure time. That's advertised extensively throughout the station and when one books the tickets.
Consider the alternative intercity modes of transport: planes. One has to turn up hours, not minutes before departure. Two minutes is sod (is that word allowed?) all difference in the grand scheme of things.

As for anyone saying that the difference of a couple of minutes will tempt people to their car, that's a fraction of the time variation that congestion and traffic causes. Any car commuter in any town/city will tell you that. Bus schedules vary by up to nearly 1 hour in London, all down to traffic and road conditions.

 

[jon0844]

I'm visiting the Lake District for a day trip and turned up for my 0930 departure from Euston in plenty of time. I'm not sure when the doors locked, but we were moving at 09:29:50.

Had I missed the train, I somehow doubt I'd have been making for my car! I've been able to sit on my laptop, watch some Amazon Prime video and relax with a drink. I'll be in Windermere in about 25 minutes nice and relaxed!

 

[Dr_Paul]

It's the platform gate they close rather than the doors, and it's so everyone who passes through it has enough time to board without causing delay.

The thread concerns a train starting at Waterloo. I'm pretty sure -- unless things have changed since I last travelled from there a few weeks back -- that the platform gates are not closed before a train departs. As it is possible to walk between the ticket gates and the buffer-stops, thereby enabling access to, say, platforms 1/2 from the gates facing platforms 3/4 or 5/6, closing gates to prevent access to any particular platform would mean closing access to other platforms. At rush-hours this would lead to big problems.

 

[jon0844]

I agree. The chances are the gates are adjusted to operate as exits instead of entrances, and vice versa, at different times to manage crowds.. but you can of course move along and enter further along and walk back.

 

[theironroad]

You will even get people moaning when a train left after the time, on the basis that it's 'always late'!!

I'll admit that I've been guilty of assuming a train will be late, and missing the odd one, but I don't moan to anyone about it!

Something to be wary of is when using apps like NAT rail enq live departures or even rtt etc is that a train may be showing a few mins late and some people think,,oh I've just got time to nip to the loo or get a coffee etc and the train makes up time since it's last reporting point and is back on time......and they miss it or have a very mad dash to get it.

 

[theironroad]

The thread concerns a train starting at Waterloo. I'm pretty sure -- unless things have changed since I last travelled from there a few weeks back -- that the platform gates are not closed before a train departs. As it is possible to walk between the ticket gates and the buffer-stops, thereby enabling access to, say, platforms 1/2 from the gates facing platforms 3/4 or 5/6, closing gates to prevent access to any particular platform would mean closing access to other platforms. At rush-hours this would lead to big problems.

It wouldn't be feasible really as no gate line is dedicated to a single platform and as mentioned it's now possible to walk behind the buffers all the way from platform 1 to 11 and in theory all the way through to 19 without going back through the gates, though would be a bit of a meander going round boots.

The days of the metal grill gates being slammed shut just before the train leaves probably aren't coming back anytime soon.

The gate line staff can control the gate direction and I think they do at rush hour but for crowd control rather than preventing access to platforms.

 

[infobleep]

From the opening post I found this scenario hard to believe, especially at Waterloo where station staff dispatch. I've never heard of doors being closed 3 minutes before departure on swr/swt unless there is a fault on the train which needs a train reboot or attaching/detaching.

The OPs initial vagueness and subsequent comments added to my suspicions.

As to a train 'breaking down at speed' and that longer distance trains don't station skip, well I look forward to the explanation on the former and longer distance swr trains often station skip if needed to operationally in order to attempt a right time departure for the next service to prevent knock on delays for the rolling stock and the train crew.

For those who don't know, swr policy is to start the door closing process at T minus 30 seconds (where T is the departure time) at all stations except Waterloo where it is T minus 45 seconds.

They most definitely skip stations. Clapham Junction being one of them and for infrastructure reasons they seem to rarely add a stop odd in for a following service to cover Clapham Junction. I guess they feel passengers can get another service. However that might still delay you by 30 minutes or more depending on your location a d where you need to cba be trains to reach Clapham Junction

 

[infobleep]

Something to be wary of is when using apps like NAT rail enq live departures or even rtt etc is that a train may be showing a few mins late and some people think,,oh I've just got time to nip to the loo or get a coffee etc and the train makes up time since it's last reporting point and is back on time......and they miss it or have a very mad dash to get it.

Apologies I accidentally brushed passed the sent option before finishing my comment.

That has happened to me before but mostly the train just loses more time, unless it's skipping stations, in which case I expect it to arrive earlier than the prediction. I then try to guess what the make up will be. If it needs to attach or deattach coaches then I also know to add some additional minutes on if it's running late. If the train makes up time it's my fault for missing it. I find though the chances of that happening aren't so great.

As for train doors closing early, I'm sure the posters say train door all close 30 seconds prior to departure. However they never seem to stick to this when the trains are running late. :grin:

Also trains that are booked to arrive and depart in the same minute, neve do wait either. Lol.

They don't always arrive within the first 30 seconds of the minute of course.

Then there are the announcements about standing clear as the train is due to depart. This can be played as the doors are opening and even as late as the train already departing the platform. Some of the time they are played as the doors closed.

Just imagine if passengers followed the advice and didn't board the service or even alight, when the message is played to early. Many would be over carried. Still they can ignore that message as it's obvious and board and alight.

Seeing as they are ignoring it then, then they might as well ignore it the rest of the time too. Hehe!

I think the simple answer to this is to ban all us passengers from using the trains. It would be much easier. Less so for the passengers but there are always winners and losers. Haha.

 

[jon0844]

Something to be wary of is when using apps like NAT rail enq live departures or even rtt etc is that a train may be showing a few mins late and some people think,,oh I've just got time to nip to the loo or get a coffee etc and the train makes up time since it's last reporting point and is back on time......and they miss it or have a very mad dash to get it.

Yup, been there, done that!

 

[duffield]

A fact that appears to be lost on a lot of posters. It really is simple....a train departs at the time it says on the timetable.

Except, as I and others have pointed out, it really is *not* a fact because it's not that simple. There are *two* timetables, working timetable and public timetable, and they are *not* always the same.

Cross country at Birmingham, Working timetable xx20, public timetable xx17. The train is actually scheduled to depart three minutes after the advertised time, and in my experience that's exactly what it does.
So again, the question is why do XC do this and (say) EMT at St. Pancras not do this?

There are a number of posters on this thread who do not seem to accept this happens at all. I'm baffled as to why.

Here's an example:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C77351/2018/08/09/advanced
Look at the WTT and GBTT departue times: 11:20 and 11:17 respectively

This train *does not* and *is not intended to* depart at the time it says on the (public) timetable.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Here's an example:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C77351/2018/08/09/advanced
Look at the WTT and GBTT departue times: 11:20 and 11:17 respectively

This train *does not* and *is not intended to* depart at the time it says on the (public) timetable.

Without wanting to veer too far off-topic, there's something odd about that train: Look at the timings for Cheltenham and Bristol Parkway: For both stations, the public timetable shows the train arriving before WTT says it is scheduled to arrive - and for Cheltenham there's a 4-minute difference: WTT says, arriving 12:01, GBTT says, arriving 11:57. It's only 2 minutes at Bristol Parkway (12:30 vs 12:28).

I get why departure time would be earlier in in GBTT: That's after all an obvious consequence of what you and I are arguing for. But, why on Earth would you want to advertise a train as arriving at 11:57 when it's not scheduled to arrive until 12:01??? That doesn't help anyone, and is almost guaranteed to lead to lots of pissed off passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get why departure time would be earlier in in GBTT: That's after all an obvious consequence of what you and I are arguing for. But, why on Earth would you want to advertise a train as arriving at 11:57 when it's not scheduled to arrive until 12:01??? That doesn't help anyone, and is almost guaranteed to lead to lots of pissed off passengers.

That did happen with a particular early evening departure from Slough to Paddington, the result being that on the PIS it always showed a 3 minute delay. I have no idea why this was done and I agree that for *arrivals* there is no reason for the WTT and PTT to differ at all, ever.

For *departures*, it would make sense for the WTT time to be between 30 seconds and 2 minutes later than the PTT depending on the station in order that the close button would be pressed (or in the case of stations like Euston, the platform barrier closed) precisely as the clock ticks over to the PTT departure time.

 

[methethpropbut]

Except, as I and others have pointed out, it really is *not* a fact because it's not that simple. There are *two* timetables, working timetable and public timetable, and they are *not* always the same.

Cross country at Birmingham, Working timetable xx20, public timetable xx17. The train is actually scheduled to depart three minutes after the advertised time, and in my experience that's exactly what it does.
So again, the question is why do XC do this and (say) EMT at St. Pancras not do this?

There are a number of posters on this thread who do not seem to accept this happens at all. I'm baffled as to why.

Here's an example:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C77351/2018/08/09/advanced
Look at the WTT and GBTT departue times: 11:20 and 11:17 respectively

This train *does not* and *is not intended to* depart at the time it says on the (public) timetable.

I happened to be on the last train from London to Leeds once, it's even more extreme as I found out!
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y73971/2018/08/17/advanced
GBTT is 12 to 15 min earlier than WTT at some points - I honestly can't think of a reason why, especially by this much!

 

[Ethano92]

I think people are missing the fact that I doubt people purposely turn up a minute or two before departure. If you do turn up so close before departure it's probably because you were delayed on your journey to the platform. Or you don't actually know the timetable and when you surfaces from the underground, for example, you saw there was a train to your destination about to depart. At Waterloo, I know when a train is about to depart it gets removed from the screens but when it's delayed in leaving, it will remain on the screens saying "boarding", since my train was apparently boarding I sprinted across the concourse, tapped in just to see the doors slam shut. The train remained there for quite some time before it left and I know it's advertised that they will close before departure but this particular train was late departing, I wasn't the only person that got their hopes up.

As for intercity trains that can easily have their doors locked ages before departure, I think station screens and public timetables should advertise the train to depart 2-3 minutes before doors being locked so if you are running late, you know just how much time you have to scurry across the concourse to the correct platform.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I think people are missing the fact that I doubt people purposely turn up a minute or two before departure.

Of course they do! Probably not so much for long distance trains like the London-Leeds quoted in the previous post, but certainly for local trains and short journeys. Have you never stood on a platform on a commuter line in outer London - somewhere where the trains go every 10 or 15 minutes - and seen the significant numbers of people turning up a minute or two before a train is due? If you live or work locally and you know how long it takes you to walk to the station and onto the platform and you want to minimise your journey time, then planning to arrive a minute or two before the train is due makes perfect sense (Though I suspect quite a few of the people who do that are regulars who eventually wise up to the fact that the train usually leaves 30 seconds before the timetable claims it will).

 

[Ethano92]

But a minute is an exaggeration from my view. My local station has 6tph but unevenly spaced out with quite a large gap that comes around every half hour. I do time leaving my house to arrive at the platform a few minutes before departure so I have time to walk to the other end and that's what im sure other people do however, when you do have trains every 15 minutes or so, it's very much a turn up and go service. But thats local stations.

At major terminals, people are aware that they sometimes close the doors long in advance for seemingly no real reason, I'd expect people to get to a terminal with more than a minute spare especially if they know the exit for their station is at the other end of the train. They should also know they may have to work their way carefully through crowds of people. If it is a turn up and go frequency however, I think it's a matter of people just trying to get the first one possible from when they get there rather than purposely leaving it so last minute.