DOO list and past consequences of its implementation

[sarahj]

I have a book on the history of the IC service in Germany and they had 3 staff, plus the catering staff on board. One train manger type and two minions. I've also been on some local and suburban services in Germany. The S-bahn seems to be DOO. Other trains I've seen with a guard, but not seen them do doors or dispatch. (double deck trains from Basle to Freiburg.)


On Southern, with the 442's, it was agreed (by whom, I don't know), that they could run DOO 10 car only from manned dispatch stations. So when they run at Gatwick extensions down to Brighton in the rush hour, they need a guard for the Wivesfield/Burgess Hill/Hassocks/Preston Park stops. This week due to issues, some guards could not get to Gatwick in time, as a result, they had to miss out these, working Haywards Heath and Brighton only. Thus when a 10 car 442 does Brighton Expresses, (Vic/CLJ/ECR/BTN) they dont need a guard, despite the fact that a 10 car 442 is almost the same length as a 12 car 377. Off the main line they need a guard.

Ex FCC, now T/L drivers agreeing to run 12 car DOO down the main line, threw a spanner in the works for us guards which could come back to bite us when we become one big happy family.

 

[Starmill]

Yes not really "big chunks" then.

I think it depends: measured by number of services operated it would probably seem like a higher proportion than by geographical area served, which is what 'big chunks' implies.

 

[edwin_m]

They all carry (among other staff) a driver and two guards. There are guards based at St Pancras and on the continent.

Don't the Tunnel safety rules require the train to carry a second member of staff who is able to drive in an emergency?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Given the frequent station stops on Merseyrail - c.30 stops in an hour on Hunts Cross - Southport e.g. - I think it would be very difficult to do ops AND revenue duties.

Merseyrail guards do check tickets though, on the Chester line usually around Bromborough.

 

[Bigfoot]

Don't the Tunnel safety rules require the train to carry a second member of staff who is able to drive in an emergency?

Yes they do require there to be someone qualified to drive from the other end of the unit in emergency situations. Memory serves they are called the chef du train. Or something! I think they are what we would call a guard.

 

[387star]

Speaking of french trains they sure put us to shame

I admire northern rail for the clear bike markers something that is very clear abroad

 

[Bletchleyite]

Speaking of french trains they sure put us to shame

Have you seen how sparse French regional services are? I fear you are being taken in by TGV spin.

I admire northern rail for the clear bike markers something that is very clear abroad

I agree with that, certainly. I guess an import of Dutch practice.

Neil

 

[CC 72100]

Have you seen how sparse French regional services are? I fear you are being taken in by TGV spin.

Indeed - even more puzzling considering this a discussion about staffing levels!

 

[EAD]

Go easy - just joined the forum.

On Eurostar - spent a lot of time on them until a couple of years ago by dint of living in Brussels. Is 2 guards i.e. Ched du Train - they do despatch and 1 heads to rear cab for the tunnel in case of need to split the set in an emergency. They have walkie talkies for comms.

Grew up next to Chiltern Line - fond memories of 1st gen DMUs, but very happy to see how it has re-gained a lot of what it lost through the 80s and with some of total route modernisation. Is DOO south of Banbury, with guards north of there. MkIII stock is an exception.

On Germany - long distance always one Zugbegleiter (ZUB) now called Zugchef as lead role and from memory 1 to assist for ICE/IC trains - they spend the shift as a team. Local trains are different - 1 guard for despatch but there are also areas e.g. S-Bahn where there is no guard and also trains that use the new TAV approach to despatch (which is essentially DOO like here).

 

[Carlisle]

Go easy - just joined the forum.

. Local trains are different - 1 guard for despatch but there are also areas e.g. S-Bahn where there is no guard and also trains that use the new TAV approach to despatch (which is essentially DOO like here).

Travelled on the Munich S-Bahn a few months back seems to have small black boxes on the roof above each set of doors which presumably are DOO cameras

 

[EAD]

A bit OT as this is to do with Germany, but in response.

Is a little complicated in Munich - the trains have self closing doors with alarms and were upgraded with beams to detect obstruction as well as sensitive edges. Mainly the doors shut themselves and can be released until the driver takes away permission and announces people should stay back.

Since Spring this year they now have given back the driver the option to centrally shut all doors to ensure punctual departure. So now, doors self close but driver will observe and then shut any open doors - sensitive edge still active of course if obstruction in way. There are only cameras at a couple of stations to help this - I think the boxes you are looking at are where the speakers are as the driver announces stand back to the platform, but my last use was some months back so could be wrong.

 

[AmeralGunson]

Almost all electric trains operated by Scotrail through Glasgow are driver only operated (DOO), with travelling ticket examiners who sell tickets throughout the journey with no door responsibilities. I believe they're not allowed to travel in the back cabs so they have a very visible presence.

This is in contrast to South West Trains inner-suburban services, which have non-commercial Guards whose presence may not be very visible.

Which renders them a complete waste of time and money.

 

[Monty]

Which renders them a complete waste of time and money.

That's yours and possibly yorkie's opinion, Dispite what he has said the majority of Non-Commerical Guards do their jobs to a high standard are highly visible to the public. At my former depot the manager was very hot on the Guards conducting regular patrols and would perform checks to make sure this was being done, though bare in mind this isn't some little 3 car operation, nearly all surburban trains are 8 card with some soon to become 10 car. So you may not see the guard during your short journey, but that doesn't mean he isn't doing his best to be visible. Dare I say there is perhaps one certain depot that will go unnamed that perhaps spoils things for the rest of us but that does not mean we deserved to be told we are waste of time and money because we simply are not. I urge anyone who is concerned that the guard isn't performing his/her duties properly to report it.

 

[455driver]

Dare I say there is perhaps one certain depot that will go unnamed that perhaps spoils things for the rest of us but that does not mean we deserved to be told we are waste of time and money because we simply are not. I urge anyone who is concerned that the guard isn't performing his/her duties properly to report it.

Oh can I guess which one it is pretty pretty pleeeeaaaasssseeee!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

At the time of DOO introduction of services on the Chiltern Line the service only went as far as Banbury. I think it was at least 2 or 3 years after that services were extended North of. The Guards are mostly based in Birmingham and (I think Banbury). I don't think any are based at Marylebone but stand corrected if they do.

As for Eurostar I haven't been on one for quite some time so I will leave that for someone else to hopefully answer.

DOO on Chiltern still only reaches as far north as Banbury. Any train which goes north of Banbury will need to have a guard on board. Some trains south of Banbury require a guard too, anything loco hauled needs a guard for the entire trip, the bubble car needs a guard, any DMU over 7 coaches needs a guard (though stations are currently having DOO equipment upgraded to make this a thing of the past) and anything going over the Greenford branch into Paddington needs a guard.

Guards are split into two camps, most are officially known as train managers, they are based in Banbury, Birmingham and Stourbridge and carry out the duties that most people would traditionally associate with being a guard. I'm guessing now but I'd say there are probably about 70 at the company. The other group is much smaller, known as CSIs (Customer Service Inspector. I think.) and are basically revenue protection staff who are qualified to do guards duties. I think they are only based at Aylesbury at the moment but there may be some at Marylebone and High Wycombe (those places have certainly had depots in the past) and primarily their job is to catch people without tickets at station barriers but they are the guys who will work the Paddington train, the bubble and the 8 car DMU south of Banbury. I think they have a booked trip to Stratford too.

 

[alastair]

That's yours and possibly yorkie's opinion, Dispite what he has said the majority of Non-Commerical Guards do their jobs to a high standard are highly visible to the public. At my former depot the manager was very hot on the Guards conducting regular patrols and would perform checks to make sure this was being done, though bare in mind this isn't some little 3 car operation, nearly all surburban trains are 8 card with some soon to become 10 car. So you may not see the guard during your short journey, but that doesn't mean he isn't doing his best to be visible. Dare I say there is perhaps one certain depot that will go unnamed that perhaps spoils things for the rest of us but that does not mean we deserved to be told we are waste of time and money because we simply are not. I urge anyone who is concerned that the guard isn't performing his/her duties properly to report it.

Is the concept of commercial and non-commercial guards purely an SWT thing? How and why did it come in to being? Thanks

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I have to admit I do struggle to understand the concept of "non-commercial" guard in the last 2 days alone I have earned my monthly wage in takings alone. We all have the same rule book so why can't non-commercial guards just be like the rest of us?

 

[Monty]

Is the concept of commercial and non-commercial guards purely an SWT thing? How and why did it come in to being? Thanks

To my knowledge it is a legacy of BR, and was like this prior to privatisation. SWT committed itself to retain guards on all of it's services to help in their franchise bid. That's why we still have two grades of guard, other TOCs do of course but I believe SWT are unique in respect of having grades that do and do not include commerical duties.

 

[455driver]

Non commercial guards normally work on routes where having a ticket is a requirement to travel so there shouldnt be any revenue to collect, the RPI teams are seen as a better/ cheaper option than having all guards commercially trained.

 

[Carlisle]

In BR days i think it was known as a Trainman G grade , many depots in addition to having conductors had some of them for freight, empty coaching stock and some suburban duties where the stops were too frequent for any commercial duties to be preformed

 

[455driver]

In BR days i think it was known as a Trainman G grade , many depots in addition to having conductors had some of them for freight, empty coaching stock and some suburban duties where the stops were too frequent for any commercial duties to be preformed

Just like the routes SWTs non comms work on!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

DOO on Chiltern still only reaches as far north as Banbury.

I presume the new Oxford services will be DOO as an extension of the Chiltern pattern?
Probably East-West Rail too.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I presume the new Oxford services will be DOO as an extension of the Chiltern pattern?
Probably East-West Rail too.

Yes and yes as far as I'm aware. Oxford - Bicester Town was DOO before all the recent works anyway, it's only the connecting chord which is a new bit of railway.

 

[313103]

Is the concept of commercial and non-commercial guards purely an SWT thing? How and why did it come in to being? Thanks

It was also the same on NSE North Division/Silverlink Metro/London Overground.

When I moved to Willesden in 1993 NSE North Division only had Trainman (G) employed. In 1994 when the West London Line was opened a small (8) Conductors were employed (displaced from elsewhere). When National Express took over the operations and called it Silverlink, they would only employ new staff on Conductor terms and conditions and the grade of trainman (G) was allowed to whittle out.

When London Overground started only 3 of the former Trainman (G)s existed and their salary was brought up to the Conductors, this was due to the revenue duties being withdrawn by the company due to the introduction of Penalty fares. This existed until the Guards were all withdrawn by August 2014.