DOO list and past consequences of its implementation

[387star]

Abellio Greater Anglia operate a lot of DOO services whilst C2C and Thameslink/Great Northern are wholly DOO as are big chunks of ScotRail and Gatwick Express with First Great Western Thames Valley services the same

Southern Metro and Southeastern metro are also probably DOO as is London Overground

Was there a big protest when these trains lost conductors? Some of them would have gone DOO many years ago.
What has happened to the employees? were they offered alternative employment?

I realize the pay was less then and perhaps the job was seen as less prestigious

 

[323235]

C2C still have guards for their 12 car trains according to a discussion previously, although that doesn't detract from the question.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Was there a big protest when these trains lost conductors? Some of them would have gone DOO many years ago.

The first DOO trains were class 317, built for St Pancras/Moorgate-Bedford (pre-Thameslink) in 1981.
They were parked idle in sidings for a year until there was agreement to operate them in DOO mode.

 

[swt_passenger]

What has happened to the employers?

Employees surely?

Autocorrect strikes again?

 

[142094]

Tyne and Wear Metro has been DOO since it began operation.

 

[CallySleeper]

as are big chunks of ScotRail

Er, you sure?

 

[berneyarms]

All of the Irish Rail network is DOO (and has been for a number of years) except for:

- Dublin-Cork services
- Dublin-Belfast services
- Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy
- Limerick Junction-Waterford

That means quite a lot of "big railway" is DOO in Ireland.

 

[ac6000cw]

Er, you sure?

The electric parts of the Glasgow suburban network - see http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Driver+Only+Operation

 

[yorkie]

Er, you sure?

Almost all electric trains operated by Scotrail through Glasgow are driver only operated (DOO), with travelling ticket examiners who sell tickets throughout the journey with no door responsibilities. I believe they're not allowed to travel in the back cabs so they have a very visible presence.

This is in contrast to South West Trains inner-suburban services, which have non-commercial Guards whose presence may not be very visible.

 

[CallySleeper]

The electric parts of the Glasgow suburban network

Yes not really "big chunks" then.

 

[NX]

Guards likes those on SWT Metro services are a complete waste of money (I'm a guard myself!), at my TOC (one who has a Divison of full DOO) we more or less pay for ourselves in revenue taken in trains, not to mention the customer presence we have to assist with disabled people etc.

SWT commercial guards (who do revenue) are on a higher salary than non commercial guards, I suspect to get the latter to do tickets would cost to much.

Likewise the Mersey rail guards are ops only, and don't do tickets, but Merseyrail employ a team of revenue inspectors?! To collect revenue, why not make the guards do revenue with support from revenue teams like my TOC ?

NX

 

[313103]

Abellio Greater Anglia operate a lot of DOO services whilst C2C and Thameslink/Great Northern are wholly DOO as are big chunks of ScotRail and Gatwick Express with First Great Western Thames Valley services the same

Southern Metro and Southeastern metro are also probably DOO as is London Overground

Was there a big protest when these trains lost conductors? Some of them would have gone DOO many years ago.
What has happened to the employers? were they offered alternative employment?

I realize the pay was less then and perhaps the job was seen as less prestigious

I can only answer for happened to me. I was a Guard on the Chiltern line when that went DOO. As it was still British Rail I was fortunate to transfer to the North Division of NSE and became a Guard on the North London Line.

In July 2013 London Overground announced DOO operation on there existing services that had guards. In November 2013 and despite a 48 hour strike the trains went DOO and I was temporally unemployed.

I moved 250 miles west and applied for a job on either FGW or ATW, the FGW job did not come through as I failed the entrance exam! Just as well as the role I applied for is about to be withdrawn by FGW. I was successful in getting the role on ATW. However the role I applied for on ATW is in danger of being erased due to the IEP. The problem is as a dispatcher although I am employed by ATW my salary is paid for by FGW. When IEP comes to fruition my role will be withdrawn after that who knows what is going to happen.

The introduction of DOO may of been delayed coming in, in the first place if the then NUR didn't have such a weak leader in Sidney Weighell. He would prefer to drink tea with Peter Parker Chairman of BR rather than have a Shandy with Ray Bucktonleader of ASLE&F and whilst he was doing this he tucked his own members up by allowing the infant DOO scheme to be allowed to be introduced, after that it British Rail and its different business sectors most notably Network South East whose Director Chris Green oversaw the mass introduction of DOO.

Privatisation had in fact slowed DOO down with only routes like c2c being introduced, but now we will see vast swathes of DOO introduced across the whole of the country. It has already been announced on the TPE/Northern franchise, IEP will see the erosion of the Guard (in its current form) on both FGW and East Coast. I should count myself lucky that I am heading into the twilight of my railway career, as those that join now will have fewer and fewer opportunities in the future.

 

[Captain Chaos]

IEP, when introduced, will be Guard operated for at least the duration of the FGW franchise. After that, who knows? Will the role change? Almost certainly! Will they still have someone on-board other than the driver and the catering crew? I'd probably think so. IEP is being designed as an IC product. How many IC services in the world have only the driver on board?

 

[bb21]

Just a general reminder that this is not a thread about the safety or otherwise of DOO operations, nor about other good/evil aspects of them. There are plenty of more appropriate existing threads where such discussions can take place.

It will be nice having a thread discussing certain aspects of DOO operation (assignment of displaced staff, the location of their existence, whether it was peacefully brought in) not be hijacked by those debates.

Any such posts will be deleted for being off topic without exception.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Southern's Brighton Expresses are all DOO. The Milton Keynes Central - South Croydon services are DOO from Clapham Junction southwards.

I'm unsure whether the extended GatExs are DOO. I suspect it'd make sense for a conductor to join at Gatwick Airport if not.

 

[387star]

I can only answer for happened to me. I was a Guard on the Chiltern line when that went DOO. As it was still British Rail I was fortunate to transfer to the North Division of NSE and became a Guard on the North London Line.

In July 2013 London Overground announced DOO operation on there existing services that had guards. In November 2013 and despite a 48 hour strike the trains went DOO and I was temporally unemployed.

I moved 250 miles west and applied for a job on either FGW or ATW, the FGW job did not come through as I failed the entrance exam! Just as well as the role I applied for is about to be withdrawn by FGW. I was successful in getting the role on ATW. However the role I applied for on ATW is in danger of being erased due to the IEP. The problem is as a dispatcher although I am employed by ATW my salary is paid for by FGW. When IEP comes to fruition my role will be withdrawn after that who knows what is going to happen.

The introduction of DOO may of been delayed coming in, in the first place if the then NUR didn't have such a weak leader in Sidney Weighell. He would prefer to drink tea with Peter Parker Chairman of BR rather than have a Shandy with Ray Bucktonleader of ASLE&F and whilst he was doing this he tucked his own members up by allowing the infant DOO scheme to be allowed to be introduced, after that it British Rail and its different business sectors most notably Network South East whose Director Chris Green oversaw the mass introduction of DOO.

Privatisation had in fact slowed DOO down with only routes like c2c being introduced, but now we will see vast swathes of DOO introduced across the whole of the country. It has already been announced on the TPE/Northern franchise, IEP will see the erosion of the Guard (in its current form) on both FGW and East Coast. I should count myself lucky that I am heading into the twilight of my railway career, as those that join now will have fewer and fewer opportunities in the future.

Chiltern still employ guards to Birmingham and stratford presumably the FGW service from Paddington to Stratford also had a guard
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What onboard staff do Eurostar employ?

 

[yorkie]

How many IC services in the world have only the driver on board?

Depending on the definition of InterCity, possibly none.

Southeastern's High Speed services are not quite up to 'InterCity' standard, but there are similarities, and they're DOO while on the HS1 route.

But DOO just refers to the operation; there may well be more members of staff on-board (as in the Strathclyde example, where all trains are booked to have a ticket examiner patrolling the train to sell & check tickets; even when the train is approaching, at, or departing stations as they're non-operational staff so don't do the doors).

 

[313103]

Chiltern still employ guards to Birmingham and stratford presumably the FGW service from Paddington to Stratford also had a guard
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What onboard staff do Eurostar employ?

At the time of DOO introduction of services on the Chiltern Line the service only went as far as Banbury. I think it was at least 2 or 3 years after that services were extended North of. The Guards are mostly based in Birmingham and (I think Banbury). I don't think any are based at Marylebone but stand corrected if they do.

As for Eurostar I haven't been on one for quite some time so I will leave that for someone else to hopefully answer.

 

[6Gman]

Guards likes those on SWT Metro services are a complete waste of money (I'm a guard myself!), at my TOC (one who has a Divison of full DOO) we more or less pay for ourselves in revenue taken in trains, not to mention the customer presence we have to assist with disabled people etc.

SWT commercial guards (who do revenue) are on a higher salary than non commercial guards, I suspect to get the latter to do tickets would cost to much.

Likewise the Mersey rail guards are ops only, and don't do tickets, but Merseyrail employ a team of revenue inspectors?! To collect revenue, why not make the guards do revenue with support from revenue teams like my TOC ?

NX

Given the frequent station stops on Merseyrail - c.30 stops in an hour on Hunts Cross - Southport e.g. - I think it would be very difficult to do ops AND revenue duties.

 

[Aictos]

Southern's Brighton Expresses are all DOO. The Milton Keynes Central - South Croydon services are DOO from Clapham Junction southwards.

I'm unsure whether the extended GatExs are DOO. I suspect it'd make sense for a conductor to join at Gatwick Airport if not.

The 12 car Brighton Expresses HAVE to have a guard onboard as required by Southern's safety case, think this applies to ALL their 12 car services though.

The extended GatEx services to Brighton def do have guards between Gatwick Airport and Brighton, it's only between the airport and London Victoria that it is DOO operated

 

[edwin_m]

Yes not really "big chunks" then.

Maybe not geographically, but I think the Strathclyde Electrics make up over 50% of ScotRail's workings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But DOO just refers to the operation; there may well be more members of staff on-board (as in the Strathclyde example, where all trains are booked to have a ticket examiner patrolling the train to sell & check tickets; even when the train is approaching, at, or departing stations as they're non-operational staff so don't do the doors).

And it's that mode of operation that probably has real potential on stopping city services (and it is, for example, how the modern tram services with conductors work). But that said I can see why the guards are opposed to it, because it would seem like a slippery slope, and you can understand why anyone would wish to ensure their job is safe.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given the frequent station stops on Merseyrail - c.30 stops in an hour on Hunts Cross - Southport e.g. - I think it would be very difficult to do ops AND revenue duties.

They did try it - it was the reason why the 50xs had door controls fitted to every set of doors in the 1990s (don't know if they are still there?). It was soon found to be impractical, both in terms of causing delay and in terms of guards being assaulted for asking people to pay alone (rather than the revenue squads which operate in 3s and 4s and are partly made up of "rentathugs" with whom you would not argue). I imagine the traditional Merseyside industrial relations issue also played a part.

Neil

 

[bramling]

Abellio Greater Anglia operate a lot of DOO services whilst C2C and Thameslink/Great Northern are wholly DOO as are big chunks of ScotRail and Gatwick Express with First Great Western Thames Valley services the same

Southern Metro and Southeastern metro are also probably DOO as is London Overground

Was there a big protest when these trains lost conductors? Some of them would have gone DOO many years ago.
What has happened to the employees? were they offered alternative employment?

I realize the pay was less then and perhaps the job was seen as less prestigious

Obviously all of LUL is now DOO (OPO in LUL terminology). The Victoria Line has been OPO from day one. For the rest, guards had the option to move elsewhere, when the final line (Northern) went OPO guards either took retirement, or were displaced to other roles mainly on the stations. In most cases they had the opportunity to become a Train Operator within a fairly short space of time if desired and subject to meeting the required standards.

 

[Carlisle]

guards being assaulted for asking people to pay alone (rather than the revenue squads which operate in 3s and 4s

Neil

Dont most TOCs commercial guards have to operate alone much of the time apart from longer distance services that will have a catering crew or maybe an assisting guard sometimes

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dont most TOCs commercial guards have to operate alone much of the time apart from longer distance services that will have a catering crew or maybe an assisting guard sometimes

Yes, but it's Merseyrail we are talking about here (before anyone accuses me of anti-Scouse sentiment, I'm a Scouser by birth and lived there until I was 7, then in Ormskirk until I was 18). And before it being implemented there was a tradition over many years of fare-dodging ("paying at the other end" - i.e. only when challenged).

Neil

 

[Bald Rick]

The first DOO trains were class 317, built for St Pancras/Moorgate-Bedford (pre-Thameslink) in 1981.
They were parked idle in sidings for a year until there was agreement to operate them in DOO mode.

From memory ( happy to be corrected), the trains stood idle for the best part of a year because the deal had not been done with the drivers. Not sure what happened to the guards on hub at line, although the service was nowhere near as intense as it is now.

 

[455driver]

Yes, but it's Merseyrail we are talking about here (before anyone accuses me of anti-Scouse sentiment, I'm a Scouser by birth and lived there until I was 7, then in Ormskirk until I was 18). And before it being implemented there was a tradition over many years of fare-dodging ("paying at the other end" - i.e. only when challenged).

Neil

Its Merseyrail you are talking about, everyone else seems to be talking about this oh so wonderful subject in general hence StrathClyde PTE services being mentioned above, or do they operate on Merseyrail now!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its Merseyrail you are talking about, everyone else seems to be talking about this oh so wonderful subject in general hence StrathClyde PTE services being mentioned above, or do they operate on Merseyrail now!

Precisely. I was suggesting that Merseyrail's situation is/was a bit different from other places on a few counts.

Neil

 

[Carlisle]

Yes, but it's Merseyrail we are talking about here (before anyone accuses me of anti-Scouse sentiment, I'm a Scouser by birth and lived there until I was 7, then in Ormskirk until I was 18). And before it being implemented there was a tradition over many years of fare-dodging ("paying at the other end" - i.e. only when challenged).

Neil

Ok cheers see what you mean,bit like the way the london tube used to be outside the central zone until the widespread introduction of barriers systemwide a few years ago

 

[PermitToTravel]

As for Eurostar I haven't been on one for quite some time so I will leave that for someone else to hopefully answer.

They all carry (among other staff) a driver and two guards. There are guards based at St Pancras and on the continent.