Does this train tilt?

[Red Dragon]

A group of friends are doing a Round Robin, Leeds, Preston, Carlisle, Leeds on 15th December, and they are very keen to experience a tilting Pendolino on the West Coast leg.

With a following wind they can just make the 1053 (9S47) class 390 off platform 3 at Carlisle which comes from Euston via Birmingham - can anyone tell me if it's a tilting Pendolino?

 

[AM9]

A group of friends are doing a Round Robin, Leeds, Preston, Carlisle, Leeds on 15th December, and they are very keen to experience a tilting Pendolino on the West Coast leg.

With a following wind they can just make the 1053 (9S47) class 390 off platform 3 at Carlisle which comes from Euston via Birmingham - can anyone tell me if it's a tilting Pendolino?

Surely all 390s tilt assuming that there isn't a problem with the onboard kit or the the TASS on the line you are travelling over.

 

[DarloRich]

If it is Virgin West Coast train it has the capability to tilt - whether or not it needs to on that section of track i don't know

 

[Red Dragon]

Surely all 390s tilt assuming that there isn't a problem with the onboard kit or the the TASS on the line you are travelling over.

Somebody in the group said that the 390s via BHM didn't tilt which I thought was odd - so I thought I'd check with the knowledge base at The Forum!
Thanks
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If it is Virgin West Coast train it has the capability to tilt - whether or not it needs to on that section of track i don't know

Thanks Darlo, yes it will need to tilt as it's over Shap to Carlisle.

 

[The Planner]

Whoever claimed they dont tilt is plain wrong, there is plenty of EPS north of Preston.

 

[Red Dragon]

Whoever claimed they dont tilt is plain wrong, there is plenty of EPS north of Preston.

Yes I thought it was an odd statement.
I rarely use West Coast, if it had been a Voyager I could have understood, but it's a 390.

 

[Crossover]

There may be areas round the Midlands where they don't tilt, but that won't exclude them from tilting elsewhere, any faults aside.

I believe the line between Stafford and Wolves may be one of the few places where XC can do 125mph on Virgin's territory, as I think that line is 125 non-EPS

 

[Tetchytyke]

I rarely use West Coast, if it had been a Voyager I could have understood, but it's a 390.

All VWC Voyagers tilt too. And there is plenty of tilting between Carlisle and Preston, it's quite impressive through the Lune gorge.

 

[neilb62]

Yes, unless the on-train systems are isolated for some reason it will tilt. The entire WCML between South Hampstead and Cambuslang is tilt enabled (except for short 'tilt inhibit zones' through Crewe and Preston) for both 221's and 390's. Travelling via the West Midlands again the entire route is tilt enabled for both tractions except for short stretches through New St and Wolverhampton.

 

[The Planner]

Tilt enabled or EPS speeds, as there are none on the West Mids loop?

 

[Red Dragon]

All VWC Voyagers tilt too. And there is plenty of tilting between Carlisle and Preston, it's quite impressive through the Lune gorge.

Yes it is quite a "tight" fit weaving up through the Lune. Laing civil engineers found building the M6 motorway through there difficult, so the railway must have been quite a battle.

 

[neilb62]

Tilt enabled or EPS speeds, as there are none on the West Mids loop?

Yes, Rugby to Coventry, Berkswell to Hampden in Arden and Bushbury to Near Stafford (Gravel Lane actually) are EPS speeds, but remember you can still tilt at 'normal' line speed, its the TASS sections that allow tilt. You don't need EPS to tilt but you do need TASS.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes it is quite a "tight" fit weaving up through the Lune. Laing civil engineers found building the M6 motorway through there difficult, so the railway must have been quite a battle.

the railway was there first so no doubt took the best routes creating difficulties for those constructing the M6 many years later

 

[AM9]

the railway was there first so no doubt took the best routes creating difficulties for those constructing the M6 many years later

Railline routing is difficult because of the absolute requirement to keep within the ruling gradient, plus a minimum curve radius commensurate with the expected speeds on the line.
Road (conventional) alignments have relatively few constraints on them, (just look at the A685's meanderings on Google Maps.
Road (Motorway) alignments have a number of specific requirements that are over and above ordinary road needs, specifically, maximum gradients, minimum curve radius, relationships between curve transitions and sighting etc.. And there is the fact that the width of each carriageway can be expensive to accomodate in a deep valley requiring large amounts of cutting and embankment earthworks.
So even if the motorway was built first, it would be very difficult.

 

[The Planner]

Yes, Rugby to Coventry, Berkswell to Hampden in Arden and Bushbury to Near Stafford (Gravel Lane actually) are EPS speeds, but remember you can still tilt at 'normal' line speed, its the TASS sections that allow tilt. You don't need EPS to tilt but you do need TASS.

So they are, I thought they were just MU speeds as they mirror the EPS ones.

 

[neilb62]

EPS and MU speeds differ. For instance a 221 can do 125mph non tilt between Stafford and Bushbury whereas a 390 is restricted to 90 non tilt. Not all (in fact few) EPS areas have MU speeds incorporated either.

 

[Red Dragon]

the railway was there first so no doubt took the best routes creating difficulties for those constructing the M6 many years later

Absolutely right Darlo.

It's interesting to look at the various modes of transport and the chronological order.

The North Wales coast is particularly interesting, Telford for the early coaching road at high level above Pen Maen Mawr, Stevenson with the railway down on the shoreline, and then the new A55 with a tunnel blasted through Pen Maen Mawr.

Stevenson's alignment of the railway had to be slewed over, to the West of Colwyn Bay, in order that the new A55 could be squeezed through. Stevenson got there first!

But of course Telford actually got there first, but Stevenson took the best route - followed by the rest of us !

 

[QueensCurve]

The North Wales coast is particularly interesting, Telford for the early coaching road at high level above Pen Maen Mawr, Stevenson with the railway down on the shoreline, and then the new A55 with a tunnel blasted through Pen Maen Mawr.

Stevenson's alignment of the railway had to be slewed over, to the West of Colwyn Bay, in order that the new A55 could be squeezed through. Stevenson got there first!

Which way was it slewed and between where and where?

 

[snowball]

Which way was it slewed and between where and where?

The line was slewed northwards, towards the sea, in about 1983-4, over a stretch of I think about 3.5km to the west of Colwyn Bay station. Probably from east of Marine Road near the station to west of Ffordd yr Orsaf, Mochdre.

New bridges were built for the line where it goes over or under side roads, then the new formation was completed and tracks were laid. Then it was tied in at each end, and the old railway bridges were demolished and replaced by new ones for the A55.

I think the line had already been reduced from four to two tracks before any of this. The old four-track formation was used for the road and the land-take on the south side was therefore much less than it would otherwise have been.

Also Colwyn Bay station was reduced from 4 to 2 platforms.

 

[QueensCurve]

All VWC Voyagers tilt too. And there is plenty of tilting between Carlisle and Preston, it's quite impressive through the Lune gorge.

If you want a good demonstration of tilt in action, a good location although not on your itinerary, is emerging from Linslade tunnel near Leighton Buzzard on the down fast. You can see the horizon flapping up and down.

 

[cambsy]

All Pendolino 390 and Super Voyager 221 are booked to tilt on the West Coast, on some sections of tilt the speed varies between 221 and 390, because the 390 can tilt 9 degrees where as the 221 can tilt 6 degrees, so Weedon is 125mph on 390 and 110 mph on 221, there are sections where because of gauging etc, paticulary north of Crewe that tilt is temporary switched out then on again.

if u want to do 125mph through Lune gorge and Tebay, u need to be going southbound as northbound its non tilt, and EPS starts at Queens Park and ends just south of Carstairs, you can get all this information on the Network rail website, its comes in the form of track diagrams with line speeds on them, it is interesting to look at the line speeds as u go along, and where its EPS u will be tilting unless its broken, which is not too often, enjoy the tilting.

 

[neilb62]

If you want a good demonstration of tilt in action, a good location although not on your itinerary, is emerging from Linslade tunnel near Leighton Buzzard on the down fast. You can see the horizon flapping up and down.

Better on a 'pendo through there, the permitted speed is 125 (EPS) as against 115 for a Voyager... There are several places where 90/221 EPS speeds differ, just more for us to remember!

 

[The Planner]

They changed the boards at Linslade yet? that was meant to even out the speeds.

 

[notadriver]

Does TASS calculate a braking curve towards normal speed restrictions ?

 

[neilb62]

They changed the boards at Linslade yet? that was meant to even out the speeds.

On the up? Yes, its now 125 for a Voyager from Bletchley to Stoke Hammond then 110 through the tunnel... So the tunnel itself is 115 on the down and 110 on the up for a 221.
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Does TASS calculate a braking curve towards normal speed restrictions ?

Yes. It calculates for all speeds on a TASS fitted route, EPS or normal.

 

[Ianno87]

Better on a 'pendo through there, the permitted speed is 125 (EPS) as against 115 for a Voyager... There are several places where 90/221 EPS speeds differ, just more for us to remember!

But, when sitting on a 221, the sides of the carriage appear to 'bulge' briefly as the train enters the Down Fast bore at Linslade, presumably due to air circulation in the tight squeeze through the tunnel.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

EPS and MU speeds differ. For instance a 221 can do 125mph non tilt between Stafford and Bushbury whereas a 390 is restricted to 90 non tilt. Not all (in fact few) EPS areas have MU speeds incorporated either.

That doesn't seem logical.
From what I can remember, the 90 limit was originally there for all trains.
It then went up to 125 MU with the XC track upgrade, with EMUs still limited to 90 because NR had not upgraded the OHLE.
When that was done, it became 125 EPS.

Are you saying 350s can do 100/110 on that stretch but non-tilt 390s only 90?
Given the line is pretty much straight, what would be the reason for that, given that the OHLE is fit for 125?
Although over the years I have only been on one train which had tilt disabled, and that was a Chester 221.

PS I've found the bit in the SA where it says 390s cannot take MU speeds.

 

[neilb62]

That doesn't seem logical.
From what I can remember, the 90 limit was originally there for all trains.
It then went up to 125 MU with the XC track upgrade, with EMUs still limited to 90 because NR had not upgraded the OHLE.
When that was done, it became 125 EPS.

Are you saying 350s can do 100/110 on that stretch but non-tilt 390s only 90?
Given the line is pretty much straight, what would be the reason for that, given that the OHLE is fit for 125?
Although over the years I have only been on one train which had tilt disabled, and that was a Chester 221.

Thats exactly what I'm saying. EMU speeds don't apply to 390's in non-tilt mode they obey normal line speeds. I've never got a straight answer as to why but the nearest I've got is that any unit over 5 coaches long is treated as a locomotive hauled train in the rules.
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But, when sitting on a 221, the sides of the carriage appear to 'bulge' briefly as the train enters the Down Fast bore at Linslade, presumably due to air circulation in the tight squeeze through the tunnel.

And it gives the cab doors a bloody loud BANG too....

 

[craigybagel]

Thats exactly what I'm saying. EMU speeds don't apply to 390's in non-tilt mode they obey normal line speeds. I've never got a straight answer as to why but the nearest I've got is that any unit over 5 coaches long is treated as a locomotive hauled train in the rules.

I seem to remember the 390s getting limited to 90mph Wolves - Stafford even with tilt enabled at one point when they managed to bring down the overheads twice in as many days. That was a fun weekend

 

[neilb62]

That was a while ago, I remember being caught up in the chaos! [emoji38]