Does anybody not fly?

[Butts]

Flybe were even more aggressive on the drip-pricing than EasyJet are. And Flybe went bust- twice.

They’re not that clear, and some recent changes have been very sneaky. For instance buying an upfront or extra leg room seat on EasyJet used to grant you a large cabin bag, now it doesn’t, and that change wasn’t publicised.

EasyJet showed their true colours here when Flybe went bust. Within minutes of Flybe announcing they’d gone bust, EasyJet had ramped up their prices to £300 each way to and from the island. It was so quickly it must have been a deliberate choice and not an automatic algorithm thing.

Anyway. Tomorrow I’m not flying off the island, I’m taking the ferry to Liverpool. £26 single as a foot passenger, and the bar on Manannan sells Norseman lager. Really can’t argue with that.

Flybe were great running Embraer's between Glasgow and Cardiff which I was using at around £30-£40 a go back in the day.

BMI Baby used to have some good fares as well.

Agree about the Front Row/ Cabin Bag change on EasyJet that wasn't bad value when you got both for about £20 odd.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2024 ==

Personally I think the Aspire lounge at Edinburgh is significantly better than the BA one. It didn't used to be, but they upped their game significantly on food a while ago. One of the factors of course is that the Aspire lounge isn't chock full of status snobs. Beyond that, all that BA really do better is access to medium-cheap wine and house spirits.

Well I went in the Aspire Lounge in Edinburgh last year when BA one was being done up. (BA paid)

It wasn't that bad but no Malts on offer if I remember correctly.

The Aspire Lounge is full of people who have mainly paid to get in so I would expect a decent standard.

The really big question do you get Tablet in a Big Jar in the Aspire Lounge ?

 

[takno]

Flybe were great running Embraer's between Glasgow and Cardiff which I was using at around £30-£40 a go back in the day.

BMI Baby used to have some good fares as well.

Agree about the Front Row/ Cabin Bag change on EasyJet that wasn't bad value when you got both for about £20 odd.

There is an argument that both Flybe and BMI Baby went bust. I suspect that in both cases it was a problematically rapid expansion outside of their domestic routes.

On the face of it there is a reasonable market for flying turbo-props several times a day to compete with the longer or less well-served rail routes. Unfortunately it's not an exciting market, and at the moment all capital seems to want high-growth-or-bust investment opportunities. It's unclear whether you can get away with just running a slightly risky business with moderate returns at the moment.

What I'd really like is for the government in invest buying enough second-hand voyagers (or perhaps even something new) to actually run a credible cross-country service. If there were sub-hundred quid on-the-day fares available and I had any confidence that the train was really going to run, would be on time, and wouldn't be packed to the rafters, then I'd probably just use that. Unfortunately in the real world as it stands the best option for me is to fly to Bristol and then get the hopeless joke of a Megabus the rest of the way

 

[AlterEgo]

Personally I think the Aspire lounge at Edinburgh is significantly better than the BA one. It didn't used to be, but they upped their game significantly on food a while ago. One of the factors of course is that the Aspire lounge isn't chock full of status snobs. Beyond that, all that BA really do better is access to medium-cheap wine and house spirits.

Agreed. Edinburgh is one of the places I was thinking of. BA has a very strange customer base and I say that as a Gold Card holder of some 8 years vintage!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Flybe were great running Embraer's between Glasgow and Cardiff which I was using at around £30-£40 a go back in the day.

Flybe were the main airline to serve here as the successor to Manx Airlines. The headline fares weren't too bad but the baggage charges were stratospheric. Had the pleasure of the Embraer 170 and 190 a few times from Manchester to Newquay and Jersey, nice pieces of kit but they'd probably have done a lot better financially if they'd just stuck with the Dash-8 Q400.

On the face of it there is a reasonable market for flying turbo-props several times a day to compete with the longer or less well-served rail routes. Unfortunately it's not an exciting market, and at the moment all capital seems to want high-growth-or-bust investment opportunities. It's unclear whether you can get away with just running a slightly risky business with moderate returns at the moment.

Loganair, on the face of it, seem to be managing this conundrum pretty well. They're not making mega money but they're not really losing money either. But even Loganair aren't a particularly attractive business proposition at the minute, they were up for sale until very recently but with pretty much zero interest.

The capacity-dumping by EasyJet on domestic routes is probably their biggest challenge. We certainly see it here, EasyJet will provide lots of capacity on Friday-Sunday/Monday and hoover up the passengers when it's busy, and this undermines the business case of the smaller airline for the rest of the week. EasyJet will provide lots of capacity in the summer, driving down fares, but will be nowhere to be seen in winter.

The Belfast route is an excellent example, both Flybe and recently Emerald have tried to operate daily from here to Belfast but the EasyJet capacity dumping on a weekend reduces the profit on the busiest days and undermines the whole proposition. So they withdraw. And in winter, when EasyJet don't want to fly the route, it means there's no connection at all with Northern Ireland.

 

[DarloRich]

It isn't that I DONT fly it is just that I haven't had the reason or opportunity to fly since I went to Sweden just before COVID. As a kid we didn't have much money so we didn't go on holiday other than in the caravan. I think I first flew when I was about 18 and it has never really been a thing for me. When I do fly it is still an exciting treat.

A question for those who fly regularly: do you do anything to offset the damage done by so much flying? Alternatively do you not care? Some people dont.

I can be quite smug about this: I don't own car either so my carbon footprint is quite small!

 

[takno]

It isn't that I DONT fly it is just that I haven't had the reason or opportunity to fly since I went to Sweden just before COVID. As a kid we didn't have much money so we didn't go on holiday other than in the caravan. I think I first flew when I was about 18 and it has never really been a thing for me. When I do fly it is still an exciting treat.

A question for those who fly regularly: do you do anything to offset the damage done by so much flying? Alternatively do you not care? Some people dont.

I can be quite smug about this: I don't own car either so my carbon footprint is quite small!

I avoided flying for years, but now I have to spend a significant chunk of my time caring for ailing parents at the other end of the country, rail travel has turned unaffordable and I really want to fit in some holidays, so I've decided to offset it with righteous indignation. I also don't drive or own a car, so arguably I'm covering off some flights that way.

 

[12LDA28C]

It isn't that I DONT fly it is just that I haven't had the reason or opportunity to fly since I went to Sweden just before COVID. As a kid we didn't have much money so we didn't go on holiday other than in the caravan. I think I first flew when I was about 18 and it has never really been a thing for me. When I do fly it is still an exciting treat.

A question for those who fly regularly: do you do anything to offset the damage done by so much flying? Alternatively do you not care? Some people dont.

I can be quite smug about this: I don't own car either so my carbon footprint is quite small!

I'll leave it to the aircraft designers to develop ever more efficient engines which they seem to be doing a pretty good job at as apparently a modern jet engine is around 80% more efficient than when jets were first introduced, with carbon emissions also greatly reduced.

As for not owning a car, I often wonder how anyone without a car even lives their life? I certainly couldn't manage without one unless I gave up many of the things I enjoy in life to the point of being a virtual hermit.

 

[takno]

As for not owning a car, I often wonder how anyone without a car even lives their life? I certainly couldn't manage without one unless I gave up many of the things I enjoy in life to the point of being a virtual hermit.

It's necessary to live somewhere with decent public transport, or be fit enough to walk most places you need to get. Definitely not an option for everybody, although we should probably be working to make it an option for more people

 

[DarloRich]

As for not owning a car, I often wonder how anyone without a car even lives their life? I certainly couldn't manage without one unless I gave up many of the things I enjoy in life to the point of being a virtual hermit.

I am lucky - I live in an area with easy access to both bus and train and very close to mainline railway services. It isn't that much of a problem in honesty. You can easily get your grocery orders delivered. It is sometimes difficult with spontaneous travel or with going somewhere off the beaten track but i can easily hire a car from Enterprise if i need one.

When I lived in a North Yorkshire village where the last bus was 1953 i would have struggled!

 

[12LDA28C]

It's necessary to live somewhere with decent public transport, or be fit enough to walk most places you need to get. Definitely not an option for everybody, although we should probably be working to make it an option for more people

Even decent public transport would be unlikely to get me where I needed to be for a charter train departing at 0500 or similar.

 

[DarloRich]

Even decent public transport would be unlikely to get me where I needed to be for a charter train departing at 0500 or similar.

i would travel the night before stay overnight! If it was for work work can pay! ( same if I had a car)

 

[12LDA28C]

I am lucky - I live in an area with easy access to both bus and train and very close to mainline railway services. It isn't that much of a problem in honesty. You can easily get your grocery orders delivered. It is sometimes difficult with spontaneous travel or with going somewhere off the beaten track but i can easily hire a car from Enterprise if i need one.

When I lived in a North Yorkshire village where the last bus was 1953 i would have struggled!

But do those buses and trains run 24/7? You're very lucky if they do.

 

[DarloRich]

But do those buses and trains run 24/7? You're very lucky if they do.

No. But they run something like 0500 till gone 2300, ( Looks like the timetable has changed with a slightly earlier start and a slightly earlier finish - The last trip of the day seems to have been deleted. The last bus from town used to get me home c.0000)

It only works because of where i live and work.

 

[12LDA28C]

i would travel the night before stay overnight! If it was for work work can pay! ( same if I had a car)

Fair point however paying for an additional hotel before and after a tour instead of simply driving to and from it would be prohibitive. Sadly I don't get paid by work to do charter trains... more's the pity.

 

[DarloRich]

Fair point however paying for an additional hotel before and after a tour instead of simply driving to and from it would be prohibitive.

fair point - TBH it is more the drive BACK that would finish me off.

EDIT - i have owned cars. I just don't need the extra expense where i live. I am lucky to be able to make that choice. As i say it wouldn't work where i lived in North Yorkshire. I simply would never be able to leave the village then!

EDIT 2 - I am quite happy to fly. I just worry about the damage it might be doing. If I was doing regular trips I would look at what options I had to off set that damage. That might terribly leftie but i think we should be looking at this more.

 

[johncrossley]

As for not owning a car, I often wonder how anyone without a car even lives their life? I certainly couldn't manage without one unless I gave up many of the things I enjoy in life to the point of being a virtual hermit.

You do live in the "back of beyond" though! About a fifth of households don't have a car so it is far from unusual. Obviously in London and other big cities that proportion is much higher.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2024 ==

Regarding environmental damage, do people in the UK get a "free pass" to some extent compared to other countries because of the island location? If someone in, say, France wants to go abroad, it is easy to drive or get a train. From the UK, those options are far more expensive and limited. Places like Ireland and Iceland would be really isolated without air travel. Obviously it is hard for people in the UK to move to the mainland to reduce the need for flying.

 

[takno]

Even decent public transport would be unlikely to get me where I needed to be for a charter train departing at 0500 or similar.

Most people don't do that. The only thing I can think of that I've got up that early for in the last 10 years was flights, and fwiw I almost always get public transport or walk to airports

 

[Joe Paxton]

Agreed. Edinburgh is one of the places I was thinking of. BA has a very strange customer base and I say that as a Gold Card holder of some 8 years vintage!

I'd be interested if you were willing to expand on this point!

 

[notverydeep]

I'll leave it to the aircraft designers to develop ever more efficient engines which they seem to be doing a pretty good job at as apparently a modern jet engine is around 80% more efficient than when jets were first introduced, with carbon emissions also greatly reduced.

The problem with relying on increased fuel efficiency is that historically it has been more than offset by the increase in the number of flights taken and so has tended to correlate with increased net emissions rather than a reduction. When aero-engines were five times less efficient there were only a tiny number of passengers compared to today. It is likely that this trend will continue, unless a mechanism is introduced to prevent air travel from increasing. To be fair to aviation, this problem is not unique to air travel. Throughout the late 20th Century road traffic increased as vehicles became more efficient and thus (relatively) cheaper than alternatives - it is congestion that tends to end up placing a ceiling on traffic growth. At least globally, some of the efficiency gain from LED lighting is being offset by more and brighter lighting.

 

[Butts]

EDIT 2 - I am quite happy to fly. I just worry about the damage it might be doing. If I was doing regular trips I would look at what options I had to off set that damage. That might terribly leftie but i think we should be looking at this more.

As long as the USA, China, India, Brazil , Russia et al are pumping enormous amounts of pollution into the atmosphere, any offset would be more a case of virtue signalling than of any practical or discernible benefit.

 

[DarloRich]

As long as the USA, China, India, Brazil , Russia et al are pumping enormous amounts of pollution into the atmosphere, any offset would be more a case of virtue signalling than of any practical or discernible benefit.

That seems like anti virtue signalling! We all have to take responsibility for our own actions.

 

[12LDA28C]

Most people don't do that. The only thing I can think of that I've got up that early for in the last 10 years was flights, and fwiw I almost always get public transport or walk to airports

I know plenty of people who do do that, in fact any charter train you go on will be full of people who have had to get up very early to make the train. You're particularly lucky if you live within walking distance of an airport!

 

[takno]

I know plenty of people who do do that, in fact any charter train you go on will be full of people who have had to get up very early to make the train. You're particularly lucky if you live within walking distance of an airport!

I'm not questioning that there are lots of people who go on charter trains, it's just that there are lots and lots and lots of people in the country, and the vast majority of them don't ever go on charter trains, so it will never factor into most people's decision on whether they cab manage without a car.

If I were to go to something like a charter train I'd likely either hire a car (since I can drive after a fashion), or buddy up with somebody who does drive. The aim isn't to eliminate cars, it's to reduce the number of them that are lying about unused or are getting used purely because they are there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I were to go to something like a charter train I'd likely either hire a car (since I can drive after a fashion), or buddy up with somebody who does drive. The aim isn't to eliminate cars, it's to reduce the number of them that are lying about unused or are getting used purely because they are there.

Cars lying about unused harm nothing. The aim is to reduce the number of times they are used, specifically in urban areas and for short journeys where they cause most harm.

 

[takno]

Cars lying about unused harm nothing. The aim is to reduce the number of times they are used, specifically in urban areas and for short journeys where they cause most harm.

My street is full of them. They take up a hell of a lot of space and limit the density of development. All the space they take up is paved, with the inevitable water run-off issues. and that's before you consider the environmental costs of production and maintenance, and the personal cost to everybody who is essentially sitting on an expensive asset they aren't getting that much use out of.

Underused cars are a menace.

 

[renegademaster]

My street is full of them. They take up a hell of a lot of space and limit the density of development. All the space they take up is paved, with the inevitable water run-off issues. and that's before you consider the environmental costs of production and maintenance, and the personal cost to everybody who is essentially sitting on an expensive asset they aren't getting that much use out of.

Underused cars are a menace.

Realistically though, how much space currently used for parking is feasible for development? You aren't going to build a row of bungalows where your street parking used to be

 

[Bletchleyite]

Realistically though, how much space currently used for parking is feasible for development? You aren't going to build a row of bungalows where your street parking used to be

Very little if any. And people don't like front gardens because they require maintenance and you can't do much useful with them!

 

[takno]

Realistically though, how much space currently used for parking is feasible for development? You aren't going to build a row of bungalows where your street parking used to be

The point is more that new developments are built with a lot of parking spaces, driveways and needlessly wide roads, which reduces capacity. Bungalows in themselves are a pretty poor use of space, so not an ideal example.

A more immediate issue is probably the proportion of the country where drivers are constantly struggling to find places to park, and where because the pavement is the only (/first) place they find, it becomes difficult to get around without a car. The council owns and maintains all that tarmac at my expense

 

[12LDA28C]

The point is more that new developments are built with a lot of parking spaces, driveways and needlessly wide roads, which reduces capacity. Bungalows in themselves are a pretty poor use of space, so not an ideal example.

A more immediate issue is probably the proportion of the country where drivers are constantly struggling to find places to park, and where because the pavement is the only (/first) place they find, it becomes difficult to get around without a car. The council owns and maintains all that tarmac at my expense

They're not. That's why people are forced to park on the road, on the verge, half on the pavement and anywhere else they can find sufficient space. Go to any 'new development' built within the last 20 to 40 years and you'll find insufficient parking space provided which is exactly why many people pave their front gardens (if they're lucky enough to have one) to provide extra parking space.

A family with two parents and two driving-age children might have 4 cars between them and I can guarantee that their house won't be provided with 4 parking spaces.

 

[atillathehunn]

I suspect the majority of people don't fly in any given year, and certainly the majority of people don't fly more than twice. Arguably 12 flights a year is frequent, but by any reasonable definition 25 or more flights a year has got to be fairly frequent. That's not a criticism in any sense, just what I'd argue the words mean. Norwegian's reward programme has tiers at 8, 16, 24 and 32 flights in a year, with the rewards from the 32 flights tier being significantly beyond those at 24, so arguably they aren't expecting many people to hit 32.

Well then perhaps you are right. I have never felt like it, mostly because I don't fit the usual profile of a frequent flier.

I never manage to build up much status with airlines because my routes change often and I'm not captive to one origin airport (this year alone I've done long haul from AMS, BRU, DUS, MXP) as the end of one trip can often blend into the start of the next, as well as not having a useful airport in my city of residence. That being said, this year I should end up as Star Alliance Gold as well as Flying Blue silver but that's luck more than anything. Usually a handful of the flights in a year are on humanitarian flights, which strangely don't have FF status...