Dodgers

[al78]

I have wondered why Redhill station does not have a barrier at the rear entrance/exit (at platform 3). I sometimes travel from Gomshall to Horsham via Redhill if I have a social event there, and it would be trivially easy not to bother to buy a ticket for the Gomshall to Redhill part (Gomshall is unstaffed and there is never anyone checking on that stretch of the North Downs line). In fact it would be trivially easy not to buy a ticket at all, as at night there is no-one checking tickets on the way to Horsham and I could just get off at Littlehaven where there are no barriers (at least not when I last used that station, sometimes the barriers at Horsham are open at night).

 

[pfkshanks]

Do RPIs tend to work solo down South, such as on Southern? On Merseyrail they tend to work in teams of 3. Personally I think working solo would be better as they can spread out more.

Thameslink RPI's are allowed to work solo but if availability is there then they will work together in teams. With southern, teams generally go out in 2's or 3's but on long trains or 2 coupled units (eg 455's) then you can get separated but will try and meet up with colleague at earliest opportunity

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Its fair to say that certain "stereotypes" cant help but live up to the reputation they hold...

 

[Mark_1987]

I had one from Scarborough not long ago. A gent had one of these M-Tickets which was an advance for the previous service an hour earlier. Duly informed him that he would require a new ticket to Leeds (£28.80 SDS ). To this he instantly became aggressive shouting that he had no money and that I'd have to get the BTP out to him. OK no problem that can be arranged. His voice still loud as I carry on checking says to his mate " I'll just get off at York and buy one from there to Leeds its cheaper ". Turning round " I thought you said you had no money to pay ?! ". " Do I look like someone with no money to pay " smirking with his mate and his laptop on the table. " . "Well just to let you know Sir I'm getting off at York so you will be telling the BTP why you won't pay for a new ticket from Scarborough". Carries on checking and have to walk back past him to head back to the cab to arrange the welcome meeting . The goodwill in me offers him one last chance to purchase an SDS to prevent the situation becoming something it shouldn't be. Sure enough he whips out a wallet full of cards and cash and says " I'll have one of those returns for £30 quid. Sadly for his attitude in the first place I stand my ground and treat him as if he held no ticket having gone past a booking office and boarding a train knowingly without a valid ticket, informing him its the SOR of £40.60. Que the comments about ripping him off and being and effing jobsworth and refusing to pay anything again , also stating that other conductors have let him off ( thanks for admitting you do this regularly !! ). With that attitude in mind I take away my offer and arrange BTP to meet the train at York. Thankfully they were very understanding and ask me what I'd like done, which I requested he be marched to the ticket office to pay to SDS or SOR only, which they duly did telling me the outcome later that night.

Attitude goes a long way, especially trying to pull a fast one. Needless to say I still see said bloke regularly. Doesn't bleep a word or even look at me anymore just leaves his phone on the table for me to look at , and magically they are all correct so far !

 

[satisnek]

When I worked in Droitwich (2004-2007) the train I used to catch in the morning was used by kids going to the fee-paying schools in Worcester and as a result was very well loaded. Therefore ticket checks were rare and usually occurred only during the school holidays. There was this bloke - a detestable little maggot of a man - who did the same journey as me, and on the rare occasion of a ticket inspection would always ask for a "return to Droitwich please". On the return journey ticket checks were more common but still not an everyday occurrence, in which case he would ask for a "single to Kidderminster please". Therefore it could be safely assumed that the rest of the time he travelled scot-free.

Then, towards the end of my commuting days I noticed him striding purposefully from the booking office clutching a ticket. Every morning. (Why he didn't buy a season ticket I don't know; ignorance maybe?) He had quite obviously been clobbered with a Penalty Fare. If only I had witnessed the event, it would have made my day

 

[Antman]

I have wondered why Redhill station does not have a barrier at the rear entrance/exit (at platform 3). I sometimes travel from Gomshall to Horsham via Redhill if I have a social event there, and it would be trivially easy not to bother to buy a ticket for the Gomshall to Redhill part (Gomshall is unstaffed and there is never anyone checking on that stretch of the North Downs line). In fact it would be trivially easy not to buy a ticket at all, as at night there is no-one checking tickets on the way to Horsham and I could just get off at Littlehaven where there are no barriers (at least not when I last used that station, sometimes the barriers at Horsham are open at night).

Surely having one entrance wide open defeats the whole purpose of having ticket barriers?

It's the same at New Malden, ticket gates at one entrance whilst the other entrance is wide open, what's the point?

 

[Mojo]

In the last three travelcard bashes ive done, I got checked by an RPI on a LO 172 (He came round on the next train as well as we both alighted at the station but as he had already seen my travelcard didnt ask again) and a southern RPI asked for my ticket near Sutton. In around 120 trains, including LU to be fair, I was checked by a RPI twice. Not enough really!

Many Revenue staff, particularly on LU, work in plain clothes monitoring the gateline to ensure all customers pass through in the correct manner. It's entirely possible you may have been "checked" many more times than you realised.

 

[wellwhatitis]

When I worked in Droitwich (2004-2007) the train I used to catch in the morning was used by kids going to the fee-paying schools in Worcester and as a result was very well loaded. Therefore ticket checks were rare and usually occurred only during the school holidays. There was this bloke - a detestable little maggot of a man - who did the same journey as me, and on the rare occasion of a ticket inspection would always ask for a "return to Droitwich please". On the return journey ticket checks were more common but still not an everyday occurrence, in which case he would ask for a "single to Kidderminster please". Therefore it could be safely assumed that the rest of the time he travelled scot-free.

Then, towards the end of my commuting days I noticed him striding purposefully from the booking office clutching a ticket. Every morning. (Why he didn't buy a season ticket I don't know; ignorance maybe?) He had quite obviously been clobbered with a Penalty Fare. If only I had witnessed the event, it would have made my day

I bet he's back to his old ways now though. Droitwich Spa and Kidderminster are the pits of fare evading scrotes. RPI's we have left very rarely venture there hence it's left to the mercy of us. The train you mention in the morning is still full of kids but it doesn't stop me getting through it. One of my best earners as the regulars are so used to not needing to buy a ticket that I end up selling to almost everyone on board when I get it. It seems I'm not very popular out that way.

 

[jon0844]

Surely having one entrance wide open defeats the whole purpose of having ticket barriers?

It's the same at New Malden, ticket gates at one entrance whilst the other entrance is wide open, what's the point?

Tell that to TfL who have so effectively protected Finsbury Park!

Many Revenue staff, particularly on LU, work in plain clothes monitoring the gateline to ensure all customers pass through in the correct manner. It's entirely possible you may have been "checked" many more times than you realised.

They do stand out even when plain clothed but standing facing the gates looking at both the passenger and the gate itself, which can light up yellow for child, season and discounted tickets.

I used to get stopped and get asked to show my photo card for my season ticket. Mind you, with it being Oyster they don't check it's the right photocard! Or haven't with me previously. I can see a potential flaw there!

 

[Garmoran]

Prompts me to ask the question: has anyone ever done any academic studies into travel fraud? (I would prefer to call it that, rather than 'dodging' - which sounds more like a bit of fun.) ie an analysis of the character types that do it, their methods, motivation, and reactions when caught?

As a non-academic knowing nothing about the theories of criminology (but as an observer of people in general) I would assume the above profile fits a certain type of character, and the answer is "it's in their DNA" - since they have a fixed mind-set, they always try to rip off/thieve/cheat everybody and institution they come into contact with. In certain cases, this would include family members, I assume.

I would be cautious about putting it down to DNA - I'm more of the opinion that it's a mind-set acquired by habit and copying others. It is remarkable how many people are able to measure right and wrong to suit themselves. A search on Google for "re-use postage stamps" reveals a a lot of people who, apparently sincerely, have convinced themselves that re-using a postage stamp is not theft. They are likely to be the same people who will tell you that fare-dodging is not stealing because the train is making the same journey whether or not they are travelling. And of course there is the ability to convince oneself that it is only theft if you physically deprive another individual of their property.

 

[Agent_c]

And of course there is the ability to convince oneself that it is only theft if you physically deprive another individual of their property.

Legally that is 100% correct. Theft requires the person to take someone elses property with the intention of depriving them of it permenently.

Doesn't it stop it being wrong, doesn't stop it being a different crime, its one of those "A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing" situations.

 

[Antman]

Tell that to TfL who have so effectively protected Finsbury Park!

They do stand out even when plain clothed but standing facing the gates looking at both the passenger and the gate itself, which can light up yellow for child, season and discounted tickets.

I used to get stopped and get asked to show my photo card for my season ticket. Mind you, with it being Oyster they don't check it's the right photocard! Or haven't with me previously. I can see a potential flaw there!

Yes, totally pointless exercise partly gating Finsbury Park:cry:

I've never noticed any inspectors on ticket gates although I haven't particularly been looking, maybe they can catch a few tail gaters although they would need to be sharp eyed to spot it!

 

[Mike395]

Yes, totally pointless exercise partly gating Finsbury Park:cry:

I've never noticed any inspectors on ticket gates although I haven't particularly been looking, maybe they can catch a few tail gaters although they would need to be sharp eyed to spot it!

You'd be surprised - if I notice plain clothes (or uniformed for that matter!) RPIs watching a LU gateline I'll usually stand somewhere out of the way and watch for a few minutes if I'm not in a rush, and invariably they've caught at least one person in the time I'm there, either double-gating or not being the person named & pictured on a 18+ or staff/nominee Oyster seeming to be most common.

 

[Mojo]

I used to get stopped and get asked to show my photo card for my season ticket. Mind you, with it being Oyster they don't check it's the right photocard! Or haven't with me previously. I can see a potential flaw there!

Photocards aren't really needed on Oyster as lost or stolen cards can be cancelled and remotely hotlisted so they no longer work. Whilst people could still [in contravention of the terms of use] share a season on Oyster, this isn't a real concern.

I've never noticed any inspectors on ticket gates although I haven't particularly been looking, maybe they can catch a few tail gaters although they would need to be sharp eyed to spot it!

Doesn't require you to be that sharp eyed, it's pretty obvious!

 

[Antman]

Photocards aren't really needed on Oyster as lost or stolen cards can be cancelled and remotely hotlisted so they no longer work. Whilst people could still [in contravention of the terms of use] share a season on Oyster, this isn't a real concern.

Doesn't require you to be that sharp eyed, it's pretty obvious!

Not obvious if done properly, I've only noticed tailgater's if I happen to be behind them.

Place wallet on reader with right hand and block the beam with left hand, I'm not giving any secrets away because they were daft enough to show everyone how easy it was to do on 'The Tube' tv series, all done in the blink of an eye.

 

[HowardGWR]

I've often wondered about the idea of draconian punishments for such evasion. Emotionally one wants to see a lesson given that will be learned, but I'm minded about the trivial crimes committed in the 18th century that would earn horrid death and which, astonishingly did not seem to deter.

Most of the anecdotes have a strong indication that the 'perps' were not too bright. I can never make up my mind whether lack of intelligence should be seen as something to punish or to be pitied.

Your retort will be 'dafty, crafty' but I am not sure this is really where we are at. More dafty than crafty if you ask me.

 

[satisnek]

I bet he's back to his old ways now though. Droitwich Spa and Kidderminster are the pits of fare evading scrotes. RPI's we have left very rarely venture there hence it's left to the mercy of us. The train you mention in the morning is still full of kids but it doesn't stop me getting through it. One of my best earners as the regulars are so used to not needing to buy a ticket that I end up selling to almost everyone on board when I get it. It seems I'm not very popular out that way.

Sounds like it has got worse! I think it's fair to say that most of us had season tickets back then... well, when I say 'most of us' I'm referring to the schoolkids plus those of us 'over a certain age'. Which left 'the bit inbetween'....

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Had one today at chester le street. Hardly what I would define a scroat but acted like one, refused to pay and pushed me out of the way when train arrived at Durham. I made sure station staff were wise to him but again there was nothing more I can do, other than look out for him again and refuse travel. Frustratingly, one of our regulars who is a BTP officer was waiting on the platform, If I had eyeballed her I would have collared her before I opened the doors!

 

[BestWestern]

Had one today at chester le street. Hardly what I would define a scroat but acted like one, refused to pay and pushed me out of the way when train arrived at Durham. I made sure station staff were wise to him but again there was nothing more I can do, other than look out for him again and refuse travel. Frustratingly, one of our regulars who is a BTP officer was waiting on the platform, If I had eyeballed her I would have collared her before I opened the doors!

You were assaulted, then? Surely a report and CCTV is worth a shot? Although of course if it could be suggested that you were obstructing his exit it could be more hassle than it's worth.... :-/

 

[work-traveller]

Saw a woman board a XC first class carriage at Stoke, heading towards Birmingham. The carriage attendant asked to see her ticket, which she duly produced. The attendant then said that her ticket was dated for travel yesterday in standard class from Birmingham to Stoke. When she failed to produce a valid ticket, he said that the train manager would be along soon and would sell her a ticket. At that point she left the carriage. She did give the impression of not knowing what was going on, but not so clueless as to stay in the carriage when she was told she'd be asked to pay for a ticket .

 

[robbeech]

A little while before Christmas i boarded a train from my home in WWL to NOT (to catch a connection to somewhere or other). Somepoint 2/3 of the way through the journey, maybe Sutton or Kirkby or so a youngish chap boards and is frantically looking for where the guard is. it's a 2 car 156 he could have likely seen exactly where they were from the platform so i'm assuming they hopped on whilst trying to be hidden, it was a morning service, the one that then goes on to Lincoln so a fair few board at each station.
We started to move and he asked me if i knew where abouts the guard was likely to be and if he had been round checking tickets recently, and i said, yes after the last stop.
He was looking backwards and forwards up and down the train and then got up and went into the toilet for over 1 stop.
He coincidentally missed the guard coming round checking tickets and when he came out he asked me once again if he had been around checking tickets and i said you just missed him whilst you were in the toilet.
As we approached Nottingham we all start to collect our things and get up to leave the train. The guard came to operate from the door me and this chap (and a fair few others) were waiting to alight from here. Just as we came to a stop i said to him. "oooh, this chap here was asking where you were earlier, he was in the toilet when you passed through the train, i think he might have needed a ticket"

I don't think the chap appreciated it but i'd paid my £7.** so he should too.

Rob

 

[Mojo]

Not obvious if done properly, I've only noticed tailgater's if I happen to be behind them.

As someone who used to work on stations, both in a customer service, and a revenue role, it's pretty obvious whether someone has touched in or not based on the angle of their body, how close behind and how quickly they pass through.

Place wallet on reader with right hand and block the beam with left hand, I'm not giving any secrets away because they were daft enough to show everyone how easy it was to do on 'The Tube' tv series, all done in the blink of an eye.

What was shown on the most recent series of 'The Tube' does not keep the paddles open on that type of barrier. It's also not the most effective way to double through the gateline, and attempting to do that will most likely get you trapped!

 

[grumblingalong]

Today, the same dodger I "asked to leave my service" a few weeks back asked me if he could travel on another one of my trains presenting me about 1/16th of a valid ticket, with no date, only visible data was "cheshunt".

He obviously doesn't have as good a memory for faces as I do!

 

[gray1404]

Saw a woman board a XC first class carriage at Stoke, heading towards Birmingham. The carriage attendant asked to see her ticket, which she duly produced. The attendant then said that her ticket was dated for travel yesterday in standard class from Birmingham to Stoke. When she failed to produce a valid ticket, he said that the train manager would be along soon and would sell her a ticket. At that point she left the carriage. She did give the impression of not knowing what was going on, but not so clueless as to stay in the carriage when she was told she'd be asked to pay for a ticket .

The outward pat of an Anytime ticket is valid for 5 days, and the outward portion of an Off Peak Return is valid until 0430 on day 3, provided break of journey has occurred and start did start on day 1.

 

[Hadders]

But if you're travelling from Stoke to Birmingham then it's no use presenting a ticket from Birmingham to Stoke!

The outward pat of an Anytime ticket is valid for 5 days, and the outward portion of an Off Peak Return is valid until 0430 on day 3, provided break of journey has occurred and start did start on day 1.

An the outward portion of an Anytime Return is valid for 5 days (actually until 0429 on day 6)
An Anytime Single is valid for 2 days (until 0429 on day 2)
Both portions of an Anytime Day Return and Anytime Day Singles are only valid on the day stated (until 0429 on day 2)

 

[gray1404]

But if you're travelling from Stoke to Birmingham then it's no use presenting a ticket from Birmingham to Stoke!



An the outward portion of an Anytime Return is valid for 5 days (actually until 0429 on day 6)
An Anytime Single is valid for 2 days (until 0429 on day 2)
Both portions of an Anytime Day Return and Anytime Day Singles are only valid on the day stated (until 0429 on day 2)

And as for off peak tickets I guess this is another thread though.

Well, I am hoping that the lady in question merely got the outward portion out by mistake and found her return. Sounds like (and I am hoping) once she realised she was in first class by mistake, she relocated to standard

 

[BestWestern]

I tend not to have an issue with the 'pay when challenged' brigade, so long as they do in fact pay. What tends to irk me a little is when those who clearly play the system - and therefore almost certainly get away with it on a regular basis - take offence on those occasions when you do get to them - and charge them the appropriate fare, as opposed to the cheapest possible ticket, to which they are no longer entitled.

An example; leaving a London terminus from an unbarriered platform, on a fully restricted service. Get to the very front coach mid way through the journey, punter requests ticket to small local shack way down the line (train does local stops towards the end of the trip), with a commonly used split. Punter is correctly advised that it will be a full fare Anytime for the full distance, weighing in at over £100. And boy is he displeased, several minutes arguing the toss including a full rundown of the terrible injustice being laid upon this poor innocent chap. The killer question; "Had I not approached you to ask for your ticket Sir, at what point would you have paid for your journey?", is met with a firm assertion that we would have come and found me - this question being asked about 45 minutes into the journey with him sat firmly in his seat in the front coach. Considering the potential for undesirable consequences, particularly if an interest were raised in his regular travelling habits, why draw such attention to yourself? You tried the dodge, many times it probably works a treat but alas tonight one is not lucky. Such is life; just pay and keep schtum!

 

[trainophile]

I was on an ATW service today (won't say which one as don't want to get someone in trouble). Guy in the seat behind me presented a ticket to the guard, and was then informed that he was three hours too late and the ticket was not valid on the train he was on.

However the guard must have decided it wasn't worth the hassle, maybe because the bloke's English wasn't very good, and appeared to let him off, as he carried on down the carriage and didn't stop again on his way back.

I suppose at least he had a ticket, and maybe if he was from overseas he didn't understand how Advances work. It must be a tough call sometimes, whether to get involved or just let it go.

 

[b127222]

However the guard must have decided it wasn't worth the hassle, maybe because the bloke's English wasn't very good, and appeared to let him off

I have seen that happen many times.

 

[Antman]

I have seen that happen many times.

There seems to be a lot of people whose English isn't very good when it suits them!