Do You Agree With Ticket Barriers?

[sonic2009]

With the Topic Fare Evaders listing the Ticket Barriers Debate.

Let's have a vote. Deciding whether you agree with Ticket Barriers, and Whether you Think TOC's do enough to Protect Revenue

(Poll reset as of 11:30am September 18th due to change in options - please vote again!)

 

[yorkie]

If I think that barriers are unsuitable at some stations but agree they are a necessary evil on suburban metro systems.

 

[Intermodal]

Do I agree with ticket barriers? Yes - they help the railways protect revenue. As long as they are used in the proper way, letting people through without a ticket if they request to photograph/help relatives and are constantly monitored then they are helpful for TOCs and help reduce excess staff trying to check tickets. In many cases if set up properly they can be better than staff at checking tickets.

Do I like ticket barriers as a passenger? No - they're inconvenient, slow and can sometimes reject a valid ticket. They are the only way I can think of that checks ALL tickets in the quickest way possible though - they are necessary even if I don't like them.

Edit: Is there any reason the results are hidden? Doesn't help the discussion really.

 

[sonic2009]

Okay how do i edit the Poll?

Yes Results are Hidden to Protect Obscene Remarks that Some People can Make towards Others Regarding Posts.

 

[Lampshade]

- I support them on systems like London Underground and at frequent inner suburban stations

- I vehemently oppose them at large intercity stations like York and Sheffield (and before you say that *any* station is an intercity station, you know full well what I mean)

 

[sonic2009]

Could a Mod Please edit the Poll to Be like this :

Do you agree with Ticket Barriers at :

All Stations
Suburban Stations,London Underground
Not Decided/Open

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If I think that barriers are unsuitable at some stations but agree they are a necessary evil on suburban metro systems.

I concur with your views on this. I think the comment on posting # 6 seems to address the other point you make, but how will you re-allocate the votes already cast, before this is done?

 

[cointreau_rove]

My vote is a solid NO

In the case of Bath Spa I think (until recently) they are a thorough impediment and are dangerous. FGW have since rebuilt the station frontage to introduce another exit point and to provide a lift to Platform 2 (London Bound) - no doubt doing the same for Platform 1.

The bleating about Revenue Protection is negated somewhat when after as early as 8pm there seems to be a shortage of staff and so for H&S reasons the barriers are left open and unattended. Some of the trains from London are often quite crowded from the 7pm service onwards as the cheaper saver tickets kick into life and departures often leave the non-barriered platform 1. Sundays are days when evening time the barriers are once again left open and unattended. I relaise that I am not there all the time but have departed the station many times with the barriers unattended. Arriving at platform 8 (again until recently, with no on board ticket check has left the ticket unmarked.The train managers often do not check tickets (it happens) and ergo wherein lies the value of revenue protection techniques? I know of one passenger who told his companon that he had used the return portion of his ticket 3 times....

On a perosnal note - I am an honest type and feel that the whole barrier issue is something that is intended to catch the wrong doers but in essence it tars the good along with it, I remember the easier days of wandering along a platform and getting onto a train KNOWING my ticket would be "clipped" and that the ticket inspector did not hacve a robotic pile of extra kit to drag around with him. Bang onto all that the complexity of the the tickets that seem to catch so many people out until they are well into their journey - it all gets to be a stressful process.

Revenue protection - relally - I hear the figures about "losses - if they were that accurate then why not go after the actual people stealing their journeys - they have the figures so someone is counting or is it just creative accounting? "We caught 5 peole on each of 10 journeys over the last month therefore it must be happening xx 12 months then add in a standard deviation for an annualised number then multiply by the number of different journeys..... Do I feel that there is something of a con in this - yes I do - but I am sure the more knowledgeable amongst the forum will put me right.

C

 

[CarterUSM]

I honestly believe, if they didn't make/save/protect revenue they wouldn't exist. Good thing.

 

[lincolnshire]

Instead of having ticket barriers, why not go back to the old days of having ticket staff like we used to have back in B.R. days, who check tickets at the barriers and collect them from passengers leaving the station.
With automatic barriers you still have to have staff on duty at them to let through people who,s tickets don,t work or like me travelling on a free pass ( don,t tell the Daily Telegraph). So why go to all the trouble of installing barriers and the cost of there up keep in the yeras to come.
Its like someone else pointed out earlier in this item, after a certain time they leave the barriers wide open, so why not just have ticket checking staff on duty till the time they leave the barriers open.
One example is at Doncaster , no barriers at present, so some days we have a purge on checking tickets at the bottom of the stairs in the subway, causeing a blockage for people trying to get there trains and depart the station, it could be described as a H & S problem , by causeing comgestion.If its so important to check tickets why arn,t they there at 10-00pm at night as well, not just for a couple of hours at a time.
Another question is who is paying for them all to be installed and maintained?
The Tax Payer again maybe?

 

[HugePilchard]

The "Why don't they have staff?" argument is all very well, but I'd be interested to see how the cost breaks down at the end of the day. Yes, a ticket barrier will require an initial installation cost, plus ongoing maintenance. However, I'd be surprised if the cost of maintaining them, plus the cost of having a couple of staff on the gateline exceeded the cost of having a larger number of staff present to check all tickets.

If you're comparing having ticket barriers with having a fully staffed gateline (rather than the option of leaving the gateline unbarried/unstaffed) then I'd also wager that for the most part, barriers are a far quicker option. OK, you do get the odd people who are unable to comprehend the whole ticket-goes-in-slot, gates-open operation, and snarl the whole thing up, but on the whole when you get a train full of commuters disgorging into the gateline, things seem to go fairly quickly.

Edit: Lincolnshire, having read your post again... you seem anti-barrier, but then you also argue that in Doncaster the manual ticket checks are holding people up. So which side of the fence are you on?

 

[ushawk]

I agree with them, if they are bloody being used and not being left open all the time - even with staff there !!!

 

[WestCoast]

Instead of having ticket barriers, why not go back to the old days of having ticket staff like we used to have back in B.R. days, who check tickets at the barriers and collect them from passengers leaving the station.
With automatic barriers you still have to have staff on duty at them to let through people who,s tickets don,t work or like me travelling on a free pass ( don,t tell the Daily Telegraph).

Well, in Northern 'west region' there are only about half a dozen automatic gatelines, ticket examinations at many stations are instead performed by inspectors who work for a security firm, G4S.

 

[stut]

As many others have said, barriers are fine for commuter-type journeys, with the big proviso that there are sufficient barriers (and that they're sufficiently fast) for the volume of people who come through them, and that they're backed up by the appropriate number of staff to deal with those for whom the barrier won't work.

(I've had stupid delays at King's Cross 9-11, for example, both due to the small number of barriers there at the time, and due to only one member of staff being able to deal with 20+ people on a rush hour trainload whose tickets don't work. I've also missed several trains at Hitchin - travelling with a bike - thanks to there being only one wide gate there, and some trains taking so long to disgorge their passengers that you can miss the next one, as there's still people flowing through in the opposite direction...)

Barriers on inter-city routes, however - no. Sorry, but I don't particularly appreciate negotiating an obstacle course with luggage when I travel.

 

[HST Power]

I support barriers, but they can be a nuisance. Half the time they don't work, or they've been left hanging open at one end of the concourse with the staff standing at the other (FCC: nudge, nudge) and I hate the barriers at Letchworth, which don't recognize tickets from Potters Bar. I asked the staff why they didn't, and they told me they never have for unknown reasons. What's the point then?

 

[Ferret]

Just a yes or no?

If I think that barriers are unsuitable at some stations but agree they are a necessary evil on suburban metro systems, what option do I choose?

Ticket barriers are only ever half of a solution. Regular on train checks are also necessary, a fact lost on some TOCs.

 

[Mike395]

I'm personally in the same boat as Yorkie - barriers are useful on LU, and the London suburban network (I can also see their logic at any station which has DOO services serving it such as FCC's Thameslink/GN routes)....but even then, only if they're always staffed, and in use whenever the station is open (there's no point if barriers are open after 7-8pm).

(Just as an aside, I've reset the poll voting due to changing the options - I have made the results public to encourage discussion, as voters cannot be personally identified anyway)

 

[Old Timer]

Just a yes or no?

If I think that barriers are unsuitable at some stations but agree they are a necessary evil on suburban metro systems, what option do I choose?

As Ferret says barriers only form part of an overall co-ordinated system approach.

I fail to see why people think that barriers at main line stations are a source of delay, yet happily say nothing about the ticket barriers at some London Underground stations which have fewer barriers for considerably more passengers.

Those who are involved with revenue protection will tell you that it is far more prevalent than those who have little or no involvement will know.

A good reason why barriers should be at all stations can be demonstrated by this explanation, taken from another post I made earlier.

There are people who will still buy say a Southend V to say Rochford, and a Stratford to Liverpool St ticket (season ticket in many cases) and travel throughout.

This happened back in BR days, particularly on the LTS where East Ham was the popular short origin station.

There are also those who will buy a platform ticket to gain access to the station and then join a train, and will offer a short fare when challenged. Usually but not always they will have an approach and a "story" that will have sufficient strength to place them on the borderline.

Such people are very well versed in their explanations and many would make incredibly good actors, for this is actually what they are doing after all.

Thus on train inspection on longer distances is an absolute must. Suburban services require slightly different techniques, such as the route lockdown system I initiated, and specialised plain clothes operations of which I will say no more.

Never underestimate the degree of thievery that goes on in the UK. For example a senior manager at one of the Infrastructure companies has a brother who regularly steals alcohol from supermarkets. His modus operandi is quite simple. He goes in and buys a few items. He then goes back inside and picks up a pack of beer and goes direct to the kiosk. He buys something low value from there, such as a newspaper or a packet of cigarettes, pays for them and walks out. Because he already has shopping bags with him the assumption is that he has already paid for the beer. He does it quite regularly and if he was stopped he would argue that he had not realised that the cashier had not taken the money. Try proving otherwise to a Magistrate whose biggest ambition is to find as many people innocent as possible.

(Just as an aside, I've reset the poll voting due to changing the options - I have made the results public to encourage discussion, as voters cannot be personally identified anyway)

I previously voted but I see my vote has been assigned to an option I do not agree with. Apparantly I must be the only person who has voted according to the statistics.

 

[trentside]

In principal, I agree with the idea of barriers.

In reality, I'm not sure that they're used as effectively as they could be. For example, I know of at least one fairly busy station where the barriers will accept any ticket - it doesn't matter about the date of expiry, origin or destination. They simply read an encoded magnetic strip and open the gates. How is this effective revenue protection?

There also needs to be effective manning of barriers for when things go wrong, or when the programming has certain tickets set to be rejected, such as Advances (at London Victoria) or railcard discounts (at various places). It can be frustrating to have your ticket rejected or swallowed and not be able to find a member of staff to help.

 

[Mike395]

Fixed - please recast your votes (again, for those who voted in the last 30mins, sorry!)

 

[SS4]

I voted for the first option but largely because my feelings are closer to that than option two. Barriers themselves do not cause many delays, rather that is due to idiots who spend many seconds fishing out their ticket directly before the barrier (I see it all the time at BHM for the manual barrier).

It would be impractical to have them at all stations, especially those which are unstaffed or have only one member of staff on duty at a time. At the very least you'd need two members of staff - one to man the ticket office and one to man the barriers. Additionally, a penalty for not going in and out correctly (not unlike Oyster) would be a step in the right direction IMO since ticket barriers are not hard to leap.

Ultimately I feel they strike a balance between passenger convenience and revenue protection. In addition if smart ticketing is the way to go it will help to future proof the network


I swear this thread moved URL

 

[michael769]

^ It did, when I tried to post the following it all went pear shaped from me. Luckily I had a copy of the text. Well here goes.....

------------

I think that ticket barriers have their place at major stations, but only if they work properly.

For example the barriers at Waverley are over 5 years old not, both still when I get a season ticket it stops working sometime between 1 day and 1 month- and these are tickets issued in Waverley. When you have an annual having to constantly renew is an absolute pain.

You would think after 5 years they could get the barriers and tickets to work together properly, but until they do I feel they have no place in stations, regular passengers should not have to approach them all the time wondering if this is the day that they won't let you in/out, and if you are cutting it fine for your train even more so.

The one saving grace at Waverley is that the manual gate is always manned - from what I have seen in these forums that is not the case at all stations - and that is quite simply unacceptable.

 

[HugePilchard]

a penalty for not going in and out correctly (not unlike Oyster) would be a step in the right direction IMO since ticket barriers are not hard to leap.

Interesting idea, but I fail to see how it could be implemented. If I buy a walk-up ticket with cash and put my ticket through the barriers at my start station (touch-in), but fail to go through the barriers at the exit (touch-out), then I am in terms of having automatic maximum fares applied, what are they going to do?

The system would also mean readers having to be installed at countless unstaffed stations.

 

[gnolife]

I disagree with the "I think they would be a good idea everywhere" option, because that would mean having barriers at places like Reddish South and Berney Arms which don't get enough usage to break even. However, stations that get fairly good usage should be barriered, whether its barrier machines or a 'person barrier' (as in having people checking tickets'. However, this would only work if there was a mass 'open ticket office' spree, which is never going to happen really.

 

[shinkansen1966]

I'm personally in the same boat as Yorkie - barriers are useful on LU,

Exactly. LU is a closed system. And now many travel on Oyster PAYG, tube ticket barriers are also away of calculating your fare, too.

Ticket barriers at many stations outside London, appear to be instead of ticket inspection.

 

[Old Timer]

.....It would be impractical to have them at all stations, especially those which are unstaffed or have only one member of staff on duty at a time. At the very least you'd need two members of staff - one to man the ticket office and one to man the barriers. Additionally, a penalty for not going in and out correctly (not unlike Oyster) would be a step in the right direction IMO since ticket barriers are not hard to leap.....

Most overseas system that I am aware of have central control rooms, full CCTV monitoring and help/assistance buttons.

Push the button and an alarm sounds and the CCTV camera image at that location is immediately displayed to the operator.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

IMO ticket barriers are a must at some stations but not all stations. Some stations just have a person standing there and checking them as they got past like at New Street or Piccadilly

Some stations, while they have ticket barriers, don't really have a need for ticket barriers. Example would be somewhere like Colwyn Bay or Rhyl which has barriers

I suppose they are going to be a topic of debate because yes they are need but no they are not needed but can agree that they can be slow and cumbersome at times as well as not work. Me and my brother bought a LU travelcard yesterday and as soon as we put them into the machines at Euston Square, the machine told us to seek assistance whereas at Paddington, they didn't!

 

[swt_passenger]

My vote is a solid NO
The bleating about Revenue Protection is negated somewhat when after as early as 8pm there seems to be a shortage of staff and so for H&S reasons the barriers are left open and unattended. Some of the trains from London are often quite crowded from the 7pm service onwards as the cheaper saver tickets kick into life and departures often leave the non-barriered platform 1.

The theory (and who's to say it isn't correct?) is that at that time of night the vast majority of passengers are on the return leg of their journey, and have already been checked elsewhere, eg at Bath Spa in the morning, at their destination, and by staff on the trains.

 

[SS4]

Barriers could also help to prevent a return being used more than once though? Specifically SVRs. There tend to be few ticket checks on LM out of Euston after 8 or so and I've known people who've used the same return more than once simply buying an advance for the outward journey
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Interesting idea, but I fail to see how it could be implemented. If I buy a walk-up ticket with cash and put my ticket through the barriers at my start station (touch-in), but fail to go through the barriers at the exit (touch-out), then I am in terms of having automatic maximum fares applied, what are they going to do?

The system would also mean readers having to be installed at countless unstaffed stations.

That is true although the comment about touch in and touch out was more for electronic smartcards than tickets. Installing ticket barriers are unstaffed stations is pointless I must agree so I have no idea how a max charge would work

Most overseas system that I am aware of have central control rooms, full CCTV monitoring and help/assistance buttons.

Push the button and an alarm sounds and the CCTV camera image at that location is immediately displayed to the operator.

Handy, do you know if it works efficiently? For example is a member of staff pulled off a ticket window?

 

[lemonic]

I believe that ticket barriers are only justified on the Underground and potentially some suburban stations, definitely not at intercity stations. I love the feeling of walking in and out of a station uninhibited as happens in many countries on the continent (and luckily still some stations here in the UK!)

They should never replace ticket checks as they do not ensure that someone has a valid ticket for the journey they are covering e.g. Are they in First Class on a Standard ticket? Are they on the correct train on an Advance ticket?

Most importantly, if barriers are in operation, they must always be manned (I know they are already supposed to be) and I would strongly prefer it if they didn't swallow tickets, as many people like to keep tickets for expenses, compensation or simply for a souvenir.