Do You Agree With Ticket Barriers?

[Get-Pulled-Off]

I voted yes to all, but with the caveat that only if the layout of the station allows for it without too much bottlenecking.

The biggest loss of revenue the railway suffers from is those who would buy a ticket, if they felt they had to. Now, of course, everyone knows that trains aren't free to travel on, but if they feel that there is nothing stopping them getting a free ride, they will do it. Why pay money if you don't have to? I'm not saying I agree with it as I don't, but if you make it harder to travel for free revenue will rise from this group. It's like downloading music, people who would ordinarily describe themselves as lawabiding are quite happy to illegally download music because they believe it's not depriving someone of physical goods. It's the same with train travel. Therefore, barriers will force people to buy tickets who wouldn't otherwise bother, but who will without argument when required.

The hardcore element that will go to great lengths to avoid paying are only small in number, the type who will vault barriers and such. This is a fraction of the lost revenue.

In saying this, I do hope that the railway embraces modern technology to make it easier and quicker to buy tickets, such as contactless credit card machines and the soon to be introduced mobile phone payment where you will simply have to place your phone on a device to take payment. I wonder if (perhaps on new builds) a simple card machine could be installed in the vestibules of trains? The easier it is made to buy a ticket, the less excuses people can make and therefore harsher or more consistantly penalties can be administered.

 

[WestCoast]

. I wonder if (perhaps on new builds) a simple card machine could be installed in the vestibules of trains? The easier it is made to buy a ticket, the less excuses people can make and therefore harsher or more consistantly penalties can be administered.

Some trains in mainland Europe have onboard ticket machines, to cater for passengers boarding at unstaffed stations.

 

[Lampshade]

It would also help if ticket machines were placed barrier side at large stations to allow those arriving from unstaffed stations to buy a ticket, either to get through or to continue onwards.

In ticket offices you can buy a ticket from anywhere to anywhere, TVMs are too restrictive in this respect.

 

[Old Timer]

Security, South American style.

This clip from Brazil translates to "Metal detectors to (be used) to enhance security at CPTM stations".

One of the benefits of a fully gated suburban system.

CPTM Security

 

[shinkansen1966]

The biggest loss of revenue the railway suffers from is those who would buy a ticket, if they felt they had to.

An even greater loss of revenue than those who are put off by complex and pricey fares in the first place ?

As Rhodri Gilbert said "why does a train fare in this country cost roughly the same as flight to the States ?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc6qsNQmzFo&feature=related

 

[Old Timer]

.......As Rhodri Gilbert said "why does a train fare in this country cost roughly the same as flight to the States ?"

I wonder when he last travelled by train ?

 

[shinkansen1966]

I wonder when he last travelled by train ?

Dunno. He gets a laugh out of that joke.

30s years ago, the talk was off the curly limp British Rail sandwich. Now it's the kafkaesque fares structure and the headlines of people being fined hundreds of pounds by train operators for seemingly minor transgressions. Some of which are later reversed or rescinded.

 

[davelew99]

Hmm, i agree with barriers as a form of revenue protection (its a lot quicker than checking everyone by hand) but i don't like them because -

1. They are slow, well, the merseyrail ones are, the ones used on the London Underground seem much faster

2. Must have them everywhere (or at least in isolated sections where possible) or nowhere otherwise it makes it easy if you get on and off at the right stations to not pay

3. Don't give us constant annoucements about using ticket barriers (i'm looking at you MerseyRail) then only a few months later most people are just wandering through the disabled/luggage access gate with security/guards just waving them through.

4. Ticket machines before the barriers - ok there will be some people who buy the cheapest fare instead of their full journey but it's a lot simpler than having to explain, be let through the barrier and go off to buy a ticket elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Another point I would like answering with reguards to barriers is for example York station, East Coast put in barriers to stop people getting onto the platforms without a ticket. So when you go and buy a ticket at the travel centre run by East Coast where does the money go when you buy a ticket to Manchester Airport a service run ny Trans Pennine Express? I bet they only get a percentage of the fare and not the full amount, (the good old handling fee as its described) its the same with Grand Central, you can pay on the train, so how do you get passed the barrier then? I bet the staff would be keen on releaseing it too let you through, move like go and buy a ticket from the Travel Centre which would end being an East Coast service.
To me if a station has more than one operator then there should be no barriers as that ends up been upfair to the other operators.
Another one of the great cockups due to privatiseation of the railways.

I was under the impression the money was sorted out through the Rail Settlement Plan - since there are many routes which are served by more than one operator which can all be travelled on with the same ticket.

 

[ainsworth74]

Another point I would like answering with reguards to barriers is for example York station, East Coast put in barriers to stop people getting onto the platforms without a ticket.

When did York get barriers put in!?

I was under the impression the money was sorted out through the Rail Settlement Plan - since there are many routes which are served by more than one operator which can all be travelled on with the same ticket.

Pretty much but I believe the systems name is ORCATs. But this basically distributes revenue between the TOCs where needed. For instance on an XC Only ticket, XC would get all the revenue as they are the only TOC the ticket can be used on. On Advances TOCs also get all the revenue (apart from &Connections where the Connection TOC will also get some revenue). On inter-available tickets revenue get's split depending on the likelihood of a passenger using a certain TOCs service. So for instance on an Anytime Single York - Kings Cross EC will get most of the revenue as they run most of the services with GC getting a smaller proportion of the revenue (but of course on GC only tickets they get all the money). I think there are other factors that are used to split revenue but I'm less clear on what they are. Also a small amount of the tickets face value goes to the vendor (be that ticket office, website or train staff).

 

[stut]

Some trains in mainland Europe have onboard ticket machines, to cater for passengers boarding at unstaffed stations.

And, although it'd never work here, ungated Japanese station (usually on rural branch lines) operate a pay-on-exit system. Only one door is opened on arrival, next to a conductor's booth (often manned by the driver). If you board midway, you get a numbered slip from a machine as you enter (through tickets are shown to the driver, or excessed at an interchange). Once everyone is off, all doors are opened.

Works a treat there, and most Japanese buses work to the same principle. Fares for single journeys along the line are displayed on a digital board, so you can have the money ready.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Such facilities are intended for use by passengers only thus in days gone by practically ALL (especially toilets) were within the ticket barrier line.

You see, I agree with that.
But at least in my experience, the facilities at many stations are now past the ticket barriers. So if you are say changing trains, and want to pop to the whsmith, you have to go out of the barriers, and then back through them. Which of course, is stupid, and causes issues with break of journey restrictions and finishing early on advance tickets (how would the guy on the barrier line know if you were actually "going to the shop" or if you were just leaving the station).

Unmanned stations could easily have remotely monitored cctv with gate release, in the same way as many hotels and Companies do now on their access/car park gates.

But there are too many "what ifs" there.
What if the barrier rejects the ticket?
What if the barrier eats the ticket when it shouldn't?
What if assistance is needed? Etc etc.
And of course, how would you buy a ticket? (As many unmanned stations don't have ticket machines either - and quite often ticket machines are useless anyway).

Its all fine making suggestions, but in reality there are too many issues regarding barriers (at least the barriers that are currently in use in this country) that mean putting them everywhere is just stupid.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Works a treat there, and most Japanese buses work to the same principle. Fares for single journeys along the line are displayed on a digital board, so you can have the money ready.

Been to Japanese several times.

Took a while to get to grips with the Japanese bus ticket thing. But once I understood it, I really like it. You grab a numbered ticket as your board the rear bus door, look at the display at the front of the bus, then watch your fare increase as you travel. Bit like watching the meter go up when you are in a cab. When you exit, you hand the right change to the driver with your ticket. Yes, they have a machines on board which give change.

 

[pmgarvey]

One place which would be perfect for barriers at every station is the Manchester Metrolink. It's ridiculous how much fare dodging there is all the time.

 

[Lampshade]

One place which would be perfect for barriers at every station is the Manchester Metrolink. It's ridiculous how much fare dodging there is all the time.

How would you put them in at Market Street, Piccadilly Gardens, St Peter's Square, Victoria... or any of them for that matter? The only one that can reasonably be done is Piccadilly, but there's so many different ticket types that can be used on the Metrolink it'd be a nightmare.

 

[shinkansen1966]

One place which would be perfect for barriers at every station is the Manchester Metrolink. It's ridiculous how much fare dodging there is all the time.

See my thread on comparing Dresden's public transport with Manchester's.

Manchester:

• 20 bus fares
• no system wide day tickets before 09:30
• single tickets not valid between different modes of transport
• no tram timetable, just approximate frequencies

Dresden:

• zonal day fares starting at €5 allowing total use of all public transport
• no peak/off peak fare differences
• single fares allowing for changes between bus and tram

 

[Greenback]

Ticket barriers are not suitbale for all locations, but I would not say that their use is limted to metro or suburban networks.

They also must be considered as part of the ways we have of tackling fare evasion and anti social behaviour, and not as the sole solution to such problems.

I voted for option 2, although I do not think it is as clear cut as OK for suburbia but not for inter city.

 

[Old Timer]

You see, I agree with that.
But at least in my experience, the facilities at many stations are now past the ticket barriers. So if you are say changing trains, and want to pop to the whsmith, you have to go out of the barriers, and then back through them. Which of course, is stupid, and causes issues with break of journey restrictions and finishing early on advance tickets (how would the guy on the barrier line know if you were actually "going to the shop" or if you were just leaving the station)....

If travelling with a break of journey prohibition then the argument is irrelevant. You accept that you cannot break your journey.

A permitted break of journey ticket allows you to go to facilities outside the barrier. However I would imagine there are few junction stations where there is not some sort of facility within the barriers. Not all I accept, in which case passing through is permitted.

If you are terminating short on an advance ticket then there is every possibility this is being done to use a cheaper fare for a longer journey rather than paying the correct fare. Something that is fraud and clearly the barrier in this case is doing precisely what it is intended for.

...But there are too many "what ifs" there.
What if the barrier rejects the ticket?
What if the barrier eats the ticket when it shouldn't?
What if assistance is needed? Etc etc.

In the first two the barrier can be released, in the third scenario then assistance can be provided. Remember it states quite clearly that passengers travelling and needing assistance should inform the relevant TOCs.

 

[infobleep]

Some stations are interesting. For example the footbridge across Guildford station is a right of way. It was made so in 1987 when the station was redeveloped. This being before South West Trains bought it.

So you get parts of the day where the front entrance is maintained but the back entrance is not. However it is maned much more than it use to be. However the entrance to the car park, which is only open during rush hour, is really manned. Of course early morning and late night, all the ticket barriers are open both ends.

Then there is Portsmouth. Both Fratton station and Portsmouth and Southsea station have barriers but Portsmouth Harbour does not.

I was told by one member of staff that it wasn't financially viable to have staff all the time at Guildford.

However it is annoying when they reduce the number of exits. This happens at Oxford and London Waterloo. At Oxford you can't head west expect during rush hour. This adds 3-4 minutes onto the journey if heading west. At Waterloo you can't use the subway expect mornings and evenings. Meaning you have to join the masses on the concourse. The only reason it doesn't happen at Guildford is due to the right of way, although around 2003 it did. I can only guess they were forced to reopen them because until quite recently the station had to remain open 24 hours a day. They had to go to court to close it during the night. They then put up notices giving an alternative route to the other side!

I wonder how many other stations have a right of way going through. At Guildford they issue bridge passes which do not allow you to go on to platforms. However they don't sell platform tickets either. So legally you can't help your granny onto a train unless you buy a train ticket yourself.

Of course they only issue bridge passes when the far barriers are manned. These leads me to sarcastically think, sometimes they trust me not to fare doge but other times they do not.

The worst experience I had was at Reading. Coming off platforms 4a and b, they had manual ticket checks during rush hour. It was mayhem. Once through those, I still had to put my ticket through the automatic ticket barrier. So I got checked twice within leas than 50 yards.

Of course modern ticket barriers and printed tickets do not like each other. In August my monthly season ticket lasted a whole month. Only because there was less barriers in use during rush hour, at the back end of Guildford station than normal. This meant 1-2 less feeding of my printed ticket through the barrier each day. My ticket usually goes through 12 barriers a day and the print just can't handle it. I usually end up replacing it a couple of weeks before it runs out. A waste of paper and staff time.

 

[Old Timer]

...The worst experience I had was at Reading. Coming off platforms 4a and b, they had manual ticket checks during rush hour. It was mayhem. ....

Tell me how the Railways managed from 1830 to the 1990s then ?

 

[infobleep]

I forgot to add that earlier this year a ticket barrier ate my ticket. However it didn't end up on top. No it ended ip in the middle. Much to the surprise of the ticket barrier staff. Had I not been able to prove my journey, I got the impression he wouldn't have believed me. I of course needed the ticket to continue my journey as it wasn't finished.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If travelling with a break of journey prohibition then the argument is irrelevant. You accept that you cannot break your journey.

A permitted break of journey ticket allows you to go to facilities outside the barrier. However I would imagine there are few junction stations where there is not some sort of facility within the barriers. Not all I accept, in which case passing through is permitted.

I mean quite often that barriers will reject tickets even if break of journey is supposed to be ok.
Also, as you say, passing through the barriers is required at quite a few places to access station facilities (or even to change platform).

If you are terminating short on an advance ticket then there is every possibility this is being done to use a cheaper fare for a longer journey rather than paying the correct fare. Something that is fraud and clearly the barrier in this case is doing precisely what it is intended for.

My reference to finishing early on advance tickets is simply about the fact that how would the person on the gateline know? Your ticket is rejected from the barrier, but you could just say you were going to access the station facilities.

In the first two the barrier can be released, in the third scenario then assistance can be provided. Remember it states quite clearly that passengers travelling and needing assistance should inform the relevant TOCs.

The first one - how would you know the ticket is valid or not?
The second one - how would you get the ticket back to the passenger (who may still need it to finish a journey).
The third one - how exactly can assistance be provided? Usually at unmanned stations, assistance is given by the train guard / manager (whatever the persons title is). Helping someone (or multiple people) through a barrier would cause huge delays.

 

[yorkie]

Tell me how the Railways managed from 1830 to the 1990s then ?

Well, they had less passengers and more staff, for a start. The ticketing probably wasn't as, erm "simple" as it is today (or, in other words, actually very complicated!) and they didn't have machines to break down and reject valid tickets, instead checking was done by people.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Tell me how the Railways managed from 1830 to the 1990s then ?

With fewer companies directing the railways.

For the first 115 years, there were pretty much privately run and financed with expenses entirely covered from ticket sales and freight revenue.

From 1948 to 1995, in the State hands with State assuming complete financial responsibility.

From 1995, government choosing private companies to run services combining some government finance with ticket sales, but lacking clear division of financial responsibility. For instance GNER asked the government to keep their East Coast franchise, but government decided to step in when GNER then go its figures wrong.

 

[infobleep]

I don't know. I'm only 34 so didn't pay much attention to who checked my ticket in the 1980s. I left my parents to deal with that.

Saying all of this I find stations like Oxford take far longer to exit then when no barriers were in place but I can see the logic behind having them. I just wish they could have more in some places.

 

[Old Timer]

Well, they had less passengers and more staff, for a start. The ticketing probably wasn't as, erm "simple" as it is today (or, in other words, actually very complicated!) and they didn't have machines to break down and reject valid tickets, instead checking was done by people.

But to check a ticket properly takes time, so this whole argument about delays is nonesense. Funnily enough being back in the UK at the moment (as you will probably guess by the number of posts) I have used stations with barrier machines and I have never had any problems. There has always been at least one person on duty when I have passed through, many times there were more. In all cases the passage through the barrier lines was much quicker than when tickets were examined manually.

Anyone who would have used any BR terminal station in the 1970/80s would testify to that.

One only has to go to Euston in the evening peak when Virgin are checking tickets before boarding, and even with sometimes 5 or 6 staff there are still queues.

 

[Lampshade]

One only has to go to Euston in the evening peak when Virgin are checking tickets before boarding, and even with sometimes 5 or 6 staff there are still queues.

Yes, but manual checking eliminates the following, which barriers don't:

• Advance tickets on wrong train
• TOC specific tickets
• People buying a ticket to the first stop just to get through the barriers
• No railcard (barriers can to an extent, albeit a discriminatory one)
• Reuse of period returns

 

[shinkansen1966]

But to check a ticket properly takes time.

Then either simplify the fares for the benefit of passengers and staff. Or employ more staff to check tickets.

My basic point is that we now have a 'toxic' mix of:

• more complicated fares
• ticket barriers being guarded by one company with tickets being used for another
• isolated incidence of valid ticket rejection
• two specific personal instances of staff not trained properly

 

[Old Timer]

...passing through the barriers is required at quite a few places to .....(or even to change platform)..

I am hard put to think of an example. Perhaps you can point one out ?

....My reference to finishing early on advance tickets is simply about the fact that how would the person on the gateline know? Your ticket is rejected from the barrier, but you could just say you were going to access the station facilities..

Many advance tickets with very low fares, have prohibitions on break of journey and so could never be used. The terms and Conditions of issue of such tickets quite clearly state you cannot break journey.

....The first one - how would you know the ticket is valid or not?
The second one - how would you get the ticket back to the passenger (who may still need it to finish a journey)..

I cannot speak of national rail machines ironically enough but I can say that the LUL ones give a rejection code, which explains why to the staff. I would imagine that the main line ones are similar.

In the second case, if the station was manned not a problem, if it is unmanned then the barrier can be released remotely and the passenger advised to speak with the Guard. Similar situations exist at most automated car parks these days, and in some cities you call a control room if a roadside parking meter swallows your money. They give you a special authorisation code. In these days of mobile communications nothing is improbable, indeed a duplicate ticket could be issued through the TOD machine at the station. Let us not seek out problems where there are really none.

.....The third one - how exactly can assistance be provided? Usually at unmanned stations, assistance is given by the train guard / manager (whatever the persons title is). Helping someone (or multiple people) through a barrier would cause huge delays.

As I already pointed out a passenger requiring travelling assistance should advise the TOC. Assistance in any other case should not ordinarily require the involvement of the train crew but in exceptional circumstances then I would not think it improper for the train to be slightly delayed. I doubt any of my colleagues would disagree with this.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I am hard put to think of an example. Perhaps you can point one out ?.

In terms of changing platforms, going from any other platform at Cardiff Central to platform 0 is one example. I am not 100% sure of any other examples, although I do seem to remember having to go through barriers to change platforms at london liverpool street too (though I could be mistaken on that one). And at London waterloo thinking of it.
In terms of accessing station facilities - there are loads of examples.

Many advance tickets with very low fares, have prohibitions on break of journey and so could never be used. The terms and Conditions of issue of such tickets quite clearly state you cannot break journey.

What do you mean "could never be used"? Going through the barriers to access station facilities does not equal a break of journey.

And yes I know. But what I am saying is that there is nothing staff or barriers can do if you tell them you are going through the barriers to access station facilities. Once you are through the barriers - you can just walk out. I am not encouraging doing this, or suggesting it. But it is easily possible.

I cannot speak of national rail machines ironically enough but I can say that the LUL ones give a rejection code, which explains why to the staff. I would imagine that the main line ones are similar.

Perhaps, but are those rejection codes accurate? I am not sure, so it would be nice to have someone who is in the know with them to say. Certainly I have had tickets rejected on quite a few occasions for no reason I could tell.

In the second case, if the station was manned not a problem, if it is unmanned then the barrier can be released remotely and the passenger advised to speak with the Guard. Similar situations exist at most automated car parks these days, and in some cities you call a control room if a roadside parking meter swallows your money. They give you a special authorisation code. In these days of mobile communications nothing is improbable, indeed a duplicate ticket could be issued through the TOD machine at the station. Let us not seek out problems where there are really none.

But it is a problem. Indeed I will give you an example.
Going from Treherbert to Cardiff central, if you break your journey at Cathays, the barriers WILL swallow the ticket. Speak with the guard? What evidence would you have that you actually had a ticket in the first place (or that the ticket you had is what you are claiming you had).
I am very surprised to see someone try to claim a barrier wrongly swallowing a passengers ticket is not a problem.

As I already pointed out a passenger requiring travelling assistance should advise the TOC. Assistance in any other case should not ordinarily require the involvement of the train crew but in exceptional circumstances then I would not think it improper for the train to be slightly delayed. I doubt any of my colleagues would disagree with this.

Even advising the ToC now, the assistance at unmanned stations would be given by the train crew (as far as I am aware - and that is what I have seen myself at unmanned stations). So are you suggesting ToC's employ staff at close locations to assist people if needed?
Ignore this point if I am wrong and this already happens.
Although looking at the virgin trains link, that does say at unstaffed stations it is the train crew who help. Obviously right now that just involves getting the person off the train. If we had barriers everywhere, then surely it would also involve getting the passenger through the barriers - which surely would cause delays a fair bit longer than what the situation is now).

 

[AlterEgo]

As I already pointed out a passenger requiring travelling assistance should advise the TOC. Assistance in any other case should not ordinarily require the involvement of the train crew but in exceptional circumstances then I would not think it improper for the train to be slightly delayed. I doubt any of my colleagues would disagree with this.

Agreed.

All TOCs should have a Disabled Persons' Protection Policy, available on request. Vulnerable passengers should be put first wherever possible:

http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk...tance/Disabled_peoples_protection_policy.aspx

http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/assets/pdf/assisted-travel/dppp_february_2009.pdf