Do WCML stations have a worse service under VTWC?

[B&I]

Apologies repeat post

 

[B&I]

So once the Chase Line has been electrified, how about a Rugeley TV-Wolverhampton service via Walsall?

Hednesford, Cannock, Landywood, and Bloxwich are all places within Wolverhampton's sphere of influence, not to mention it being a good station for connections.

Whether it runs to Birmingham or Rugeley, it would work even better if intermediate stations between Walsall and Wolverhampton were re-opened - perhaps in the vicinity of Heath Town, Willenhall town centre and IKEA near Darlaston.

 

[B&I]

But how can you be so sure?

The invitation to tender hasn't gone out yet. What if it requires the new bidders to omit stops on some services in order to speed up services to key cities, as part of the franchise agreement?

If the remaining Stafford stops are cut from Liverpool services, I will be joinimg yer man behind the barricades. With the current pattern of cross-country services, it is a fairly important connection point.

 

[pt_mad]

If the remaining Stafford stops are cut from Liverpool services, I will be joinimg yer man behind the barricades. With the current pattern of cross-country services, it is a fairly important connection point.

I'm sure they'd never cut all the stops whatever happened.

I suppose there could be committments in the next franchise to reduce journey times to say x cities including Liverpool. And with the LNR soon to be 8 cars and going mainline to Crewe, customers could potentially make some connections there. As there will be 3 x hourly trains mainline Stafford to Crewe without counting VT.

 

[DarloRich]

If the remaining Stafford stops are cut from Liverpool services, I will be joinimg yer man behind the barricades. With the current pattern of cross-country services, it is a fairly important connection point.

I would say it was less important than Tamworth. How many Virgin trains stop there?

 

[pt_mad]

I would say it was less important than Tamworth. How many Virgin trains stop there?

About 9 I think. And 4 or 5 Saturdays. One or two more at Lichfield on a Saturday.

 

[yorkie]

So, why has virgin tried cut the intermediate stations from their routes?

They have not (and if there were cuts, it would not be instigated by Virgin; it is the DfT who decides the minimum service level for rail franchises).

The usual off peak pattern on the Intercity West Coast franchise (which has been operated by Virgin since around 1997) has always been 1 train per hour at Stafford, on a London to Liverpool service. The difference now is that this train is now non-stop between Stafford and London, whereas it used to make two intermediate calls. The service is better now as there is an additional service calling at principle stations between London and Crewe, including Stafford, provided by another operator.

Stafford also benefits from two CrossCountry services per hour, this used to only be one per hour (the other was non-stop through Stafford).

Stafford retains 2 trains per hour on the Birmingham to Liverpool route, so that is unchanged.

In addition to the standard off peak patterns described above, there are extra trains to cater for periods of peak demand to/from London, with calls at Stafford on ex-Euston trains to Holyhead (1910), Manchester (1940), Preston (2030 and 2110) and trains to Euston at 0555, 0724 & 0736, 2048 (all ex-Manchester).

So it is not the case that Stafford has a worse service. It has a better service!

Also I notice much longer trains back in 2003, when we are now stuck with mostly 9 car 390s

Definitely not the case. I think you will find the trains are typically longer now (generally 11 cars) than in 2003, albeit without much additional seating capacity (due to the wasted space in a Pendolino EMU), so the capacity on these trains is broadly unchanged, it has not reduced, and that's in addition to the other trains that didn't run before.

 

[pt_mad]

They have not (and if there were cuts, it would not be instigated by Virgin; it is the DfT who decides the minimum service level for rail franchises).

The usual off peak pattern on the Intercity West Coast franchise (which has been operated by Virgin since around 1997) has always been 1 train per hour at Stafford, on a London to Liverpool service. The difference now is that this train is now non-stop between Stafford and London, whereas it used to make two intermediate calls. The service is better now as there is an additional service calling at principle stations between London and Crewe, including Stafford, provided by another operator.

Stafford also benefits from two CrossCountry services per hour, this used to only be one per hour (the other was non-stop through Stafford).

Stafford retains 2 trains per hour on the Birmingham to Liverpool route, so that is unchanged.

In addition to the standard off peak patterns described above, there are extra trains to cater for periods of peak demand to/from London, with calls at Stafford on ex-Euston trains to Holyhead (1910), Manchester (1940), Preston (2030 and 2110) and trains to Euston at 0555, 0724 & 0736, 2048 (all ex-Manchester).

So it is not the case that Stafford has a worse service. It has a better service!


Definitely not the case. I think you will find the trains are typically longer now (generally 11 cars) than in 2003, albeit without much additional seating capacity (due to the wasted space in a Pendolino EMU), so the capacity on these trains is broadly unchanged, it has not reduced, and that's in addition to the other trains that didn't run before.

Wasn't it Crewe that lost the stop on the Liverpool? Then got it back again about 4 or 5 years ago. Did that add time to the London to Liverpool journey?

 

[Mathew S]

I wish the London-Glasgow service called at Crewe to provide a more frequent service to Warrington, Wigan and Preston, as well as better connectivity for some passengers.

I think (I may be wrong) that part of the reason for not doing is to deter Liverpool / Manchester / North Wales passengers from using the Glasgow trains and changing at Crewe, as a means of reducing crowding and providing more space for passengers travelling further north. As I've mentioned before, I'd rather see a Preston-Wigan-Warrington-Crewe local service. There are enough paths for it, especially if only once an hour, as long as it uses 100mph capable stock, and it would meet the local need without compromising long distance WCML services.

 

[SeanM1997]

I think (I may be wrong) that part of the reason for not doing is to deter Liverpool / Manchester / North Wales passengers from using the Glasgow trains and changing at Crewe, as a means of reducing crowding and providing more space for passengers travelling further north. As I've mentioned before, I'd rather see a Preston-Wigan-Warrington-Crewe local service. There are enough paths for it, especially if only once an hour, as long as it uses 100mph capable stock, and it would meet the local need without compromising long distance WCML services.

I agree with you - one way could be to extend the Northern Liverpool Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay to Crewe calling at all stations. As well as improving connectivity from Mid Cheshire to Warrington (instead of passengers going back on themselves), a connection could be made with the London-Glasgow service. The main problem would be paths between Crewe and Warrington, but could be achieved by changing the times of the Liverpool departure and arrival of this service

 

[hawk1911]

So it is not the case that Stafford has a worse service. It has a better service!

Overall that's quite right, Stafford has benefitted from its strategic position on the network, and this is likely to further increase with additional LNR/WMR services, plus the prospect of a sub-1 hour high speed service, to London, on HS2.

On the other side of the coin it has lost a lot of its Scottish services and, like most other parts of the country, has lost its late night/overnight services.

Whilst I'd also like to see more Scottish services stop at Stafford, my main priority is to see later evening services (23:30+ departures from the likes of Birmingham, Manchester and London).

 

[anti-pacer]

With regards to Stafford, where are the most popular season ticket destinations from there?

 

[DenmarkRail]

With regards to Stafford, where are the most popular season ticket destinations from there?

]

London.

 

[Mathew S]

]

London.

I find that a little hard to believe. Surely there are more season ticket holders from Stafford for local commutes to places like Birmingham than there are to London? That would be one heck of a daily commute!

 

[hawk1911]

I find that a little hard to believe. Surely there are more season ticket holders from Stafford for local commutes to places like Birmingham than there are to London? That would be one heck of a daily commute!

I've always got the impression that the main commutes are Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

However, I think you'd be surprised by the numbers that commute to London on a daily basis; I've seen the numbers grow significantly over the years.

 

[Mathew S]

However, I think you'd be surprised by the numbers that commute to London on a daily basis; I've seen the numbers grow significantly over the years.

I don't doubt it. I wouldn't want to do it myself, but I can see why some people choose to.
I still have my doubts that they exceed local journeys mind you. I don't know whether it's possible to get that data from somewhere? I assume it's commercialy sensitive so not readily available.

 

[DenmarkRail]

I don't doubt it. I wouldn't want to do it myself, but I can see why some people choose to.
I still have my doubts that they exceed local journeys mind you. I don't know whether it's possible to get that data from somewhere? I assume it's commercialy sensitive so not readily available.

Hour and 20 mins is a good commute... Leave on the 6AM and return on the 6pm. It’s sustainable although boring

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hour and a half to Brighton and enough do that - though much as I don't want to diss Nuneaton, Stafford etc, Brighton is a lot nicer.

 

[anti-pacer]

Hour and a half to Brighton and enough do that - though much as I don't want to diss Nuneaton, Stafford etc, Brighton is a lot nicer.

It's not even that is it?

 

[yorkie]

It's not even that is it?

Depends on where in London to where in Brighton.

Victoria to Brighton itself is about 70 mins at peak time (but usually more as trains are typically late). City Thameslink to Preston Park (a more realistic journey for a commuter without requiring an connecting legs) is 1 hr 22 min.

 

[B&I]

I'm sure they'd never cut all the stops whatever happened.

I suppose there could be committments in the next franchise to reduce journey times to say x cities including Liverpool. And with the LNR soon to be 8 cars and going mainline to Crewe, customers could potentially make some connections there. As there will be 3 x hourly trains mainline Stafford to Crewe without counting VT.

Cutting journey times is always welcome, but getting to London 5 mins faster does not improve overall connectivity if options for connection to Cross-Country services at Stafford decline. Do any Cross-Country services actually serve Crewe any more? New St is also a worse option to change at as the actual change takes much linger at a far busier station, and the insistence on using the Liverpool-Birmingham as an all shacks service means it takes forever and a day to reach Brum in the first place.

 

[B&I]

I would say it was less important than Tamworth. How many Virgin trains stop there?

Tamworth is another option and a gandy place to change, but Stafford has the option of being nearer to Liverpool and having calls on the Manchester XCs.

Of course, if Liverpool actually got some Cross-Country services, and if VTWC weren't keeping the Trent Valley stoppers out of Liverpool (and Manchester too, no doubt) calls at Stafford, Tamworth or anywhere else wouldn't be necessary.

 

[B&I]

I've always got the impression that the main commutes are Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

However, I think you'd be surprised by the numbers that commute to London on a daily basis; I've seen the numbers grow significantly over the years.

The 0527 ex-Liverpool fills up rightly at Stafford, in my experience.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Wasn't it Crewe that lost the stop on the Liverpool? Then got it back again about 4 or 5 years ago. Did that add time to the London to Liverpool journey?

That's right. A quick scan of my archive (2010) suggests the stop was removed when the Manchester service went three times hourly with one via Crewe and an hourly service to Chester was introduced, so Crewe had two trains to London at half-hourly intervals. Stafford had five regular departures an hour. This is in contrast to the earlier days of Central Trains and Virgin XC, when the Chester and north Wales service was patchy and London to Preston and beyond trains didn't all call at Crewe, which therefore some hours only had one train to London. Stafford had three regular trains an hour - one XC Birmingham to Manchester, one of the CT magical mystery tours in the form of the Stansted to Liverpool, and the London to Liverpool - although there were various other services stopping in most hours, e.g. the few XC Liverpool trains, Birmingham International to Holyhead, at least half the Birmingham to Scotlands etc. Note that this means Stafford sometimes had hour gaps to Crewe, if you exclude the services provided by a Sprinter that had had to cross the MML and WCML on the flat and somehow keep to time...

 

[Starmill]

That sounds fair enough - for a place of Stafford's size

It's also completely wrong

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Reinstate the tunnel from the Stoke line under WCML into Basford Hall yard, but realign at the exit to provide a northbound connection?

I should think the HS2 alignment into the Crewe tunnel will run straight through the one-time Stoke-Basford Hall link!

 

[gaillark]

For the last 10 years it was possible to stop the Chester services at Nuneaton but Virgin declined to do so, with the new paths available it's even more possible to do so now. However Virgin won't do it hence why we need some competition from Alliance Rail. The Virgin Blackpool services are just spoilers for the Alliance Rail proposals. The sooner we get Virgin off the West Coast or open access operators on it the better.

Virgin are starting up their Blackpool North - Euston services from May using mainly Pendolinos.
The new services are already in the May schedule however what I do find annoying with Virgin Trains is the calling pattern. First stop Rugby then fast to Warrington.
Every 2 hours starting at 0646 from Euston. No calls at Watford, Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Stafford or Crewe or even Tamworth.

As others have said in this thread the VWC timetable is not very good for connecting purposes.
Before the west coast upgrade you would have sensible connections and direct services very two hours from Watford and Milton Keynes to Manchester, Liverpool and Preston.
Both Nuneaton and Stafford had direct services to the north. Nothing now.
DfT is responsible for much but Virgin Trains is weak and would be pleased to see them go. Less Virgin hype and hysteria and more of customer service and attention to detail would not go a miss from VT.

 

[E6007]

but Virgin Trains is weak and would be pleased to see them go. Less Virgin hype and hysteria and more of customer service and attention to detail would not go a miss from VT.

This is nonsense. They would not have lasted 20 years on the route without standing up to Railtrack first and DfT more recently. And they don't come top of the Transport Focus surveys for customer service for no reason.

 

[Mathew S]

This is nonsense. They would not have lasted 20 years on the route without standing up to Railtrack first and DfT more recently. And they don't come top of the Transport Focus surveys for customer service for no reason.

Indeed. We've done this topic to death already imho, debating the advantages of a regular clockface timetable vs. adding 'random' stops in the midlands. As I understand it, the idea of the Blackpool services is to add capacity to the NW of England (ie. Preston) in order to take some of the load off the Scotland trains. Stopping them in myriad places in the midlands will detract massively from that.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Virgin are starting up their Blackpool North - Euston services from May using mainly Pendolinos.
The new services are already in the May schedule however what I do find annoying with Virgin Trains is the calling pattern. First stop Rugby then fast to Warrington.
Every 2 hours starting at 0646 from Euston. No calls at Watford, Milton Keynes, Nuneaton, Stafford or Crewe or even Tamworth.

As others have said in this thread the VWC timetable is not very good for connecting purposes.
Before the west coast upgrade you would have sensible connections and direct services very two hours from Watford and Milton Keynes to Manchester, Liverpool and Preston.
Both Nuneaton and Stafford had direct services to the north. Nothing now.
DfT is responsible for much but Virgin Trains is weak and would be pleased to see them go. Less Virgin hype and hysteria and more of customer service and attention to detail would not go a miss from VT.

I feel if Virgin went, we'd see even less of a service... They have invested in the community heavily, and a simple brand run in China, just would not have the same affect. That being said, the only real connections for WC are via Crewe from Stafford, which is annoying. Also, Stafford does have about 10 none Liverpool VT services a day, to Preston, Crewe, Birmingham, Blackpool (Soon!), Glasgow.