Do railways discriminate against colourblind people?

[HSTEd]

Careful, this is the same bloke who suggests trains should "nudge" trollies out the way.

I don't see how what I may have said in another thread is really of any concern here. And I have yet to see any evidence that a train moving into a trolley at half a mile an hour will cause the catastrophic consequences people have ascribed to hitting one at 70+. Especially since the FutureTrain (TM) would have a forward plow designed specifically for removing such obstructions.
And especially considering that in the glorious future I was projecting there will likely be very few shopping trolleys around.
It seems a rather rare incident anyway these days so it might be better to forget any specialised mechanisms and just stop the job till someone comes along and removes it.

But back on topic.

In reality the most likely 'emergency signalling scheme' involves the trains all just moving to the nearest station at something approaching walk place where all the passengers can be detrained and put onto buses until such time as the signalling decides to work again.

The days of attempting seriously to keep a service running in severely degraded conditions are to a large degree behind us.

 

[Tomnick]

Why? We can do it now under lots of failure conditions, and I'm sure the public (and, more importantly, the freight operators whose traffic can't just be offloaded to replacement transport) expect us to have contingency plans to keep the job moving.

 

[HSTEd]

Why? We can do it now under lots of failure conditions, and I'm sure the public (and, more importantly, the freight operators whose traffic can't just be offloaded to replacement transport) expect us to have contingency plans to keep the job moving.

Because contingencies cost money.
It rapidly becomes cheaper to simply pay the delay fines and move on.

To do anything other than walking pace under line of sight will require multiple members of staff along the lineside - where do these staff come from?
If you really have a load that has to get through then I think it would be a case of a pilotman walking the trains out of the affected area.

How many incidents take out the signalling for more than a couple of hours but leave the track itself passable? I am pretty sure that is fairly rare.

 

[Tomnick]

It happens frequently enough for temporary block working to be a fairly common procedure - and that only needs two handsignalmen (for each direction). Walking trains through the affected section with a "pilotman" (in the loosest sense of the term) doesn't resemble any current procedure, contingency or otherwise, and would be a substantial backward step when we have plenty of ways of keeping the job moving under more robust arrangements. Yes, it costs money, but not necessarily in excess - there'll always need to be some sort of response structure, and additional bodies with the right competencies can often be brought in at fairly short notice. Personally, I'd rather we work harder to get more staff - including those working for TOCs - trained to hold more competencies for use in failure situations, rather than simply suggesting that it'd be easier to get a fleet of buses in...

 

[DarloRich]

In-cab signalling technology - e.g. ETCS - will mean that drivers don't have to look out for coloured lights at the trackside. Until it's widespread there's not much else that can/will be done.

The DMI is still coloured with various colours having different meanings!

The term 'reasonably practicable' applies. It would not be reasonably practicable to change the whole of the UK's signalling system in order to accommodate those with colour blindness.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this!

This is ridiculous.

I'm not fit enough to join the Marines. Do the marines therefore discriminate against unfit people? I'm not clever enough to go to Oxbridge. Do those unis discriminate against stupid people?

oh and this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

By the same token I hope to be a premier league footballer. I am really keen, have played and watched loads of football, read loads of books about football, hell i even guided Darlington to Champions League glory on Football Manager! I am a shoe in, but for one slight issue. I AM USELESS AT FOOTBALL!

Some jobs are limited by physical or mental selection requirments of that job. Not everyone can make it. That is life. and life is tough sometimes.

BTW if the Chancellor can go to Oxbridge we all can

 

[Monty]

I have to say I am somewhat surprised this thread has managed to reach 5 pages, even if you set aside the costs for design, development and implementation of a system that is safe for colourblind persons to use (even if it's realistically possible to disign a workable system it would cost hundreds of millions of pounds) it could take well over half a century to roll out such a system! We still have parts of the network using absolute block for crying out loud!

You then have the issue that a Colourblind driver wouldn't be able to train until at least one route was so fitted, and even then they would be restricted to driving to routes with the system installed. Hardly practical, cost effective or sensible really is it?

ORM/TCS "Driver can you take a train down to the harbour please?"

Driver "Sorry I can only take it from Waterloo to Clapham because I'm not passed out on colour light signals..."

 

[CockneySparrow]

Well ETCS would render colour blindness moot since there will be no lineside signals left.

But this is more than a little silly - perhaps we should spend millions installing auditory systems so people who are entirely blind can be drivers?

Maybe they should have saved the money spent on traffic light systems and kept the arms on the gantrys lol

 

[Tibbs]

This is ridiculous.

I'm not fit enough to join the Marines. Do the marines therefore discriminate against unfit people? I'm not clever enough to go to Oxbridge. Do those unis discriminate against stupid people?

Your analogy is bad.

You could, however, get fit enough to join the Royal Marines. It's not complicated, just bloody hard work. A colourblind person could never get good enough at seeing he could see colours he couldn't before.

Having said that, I still feel bad that I could never be a Johovah's witness as I've had blood transfusions. At least once I've told them they don't come to my door any more!

 

[PermitToTravel]

We still have parts of the network using absolute block for crying out loud!

Ironically we still have lots of the network signalled with (colourblind-accessible) semaphore signals

 

[Monty]

Ironically we still have lots of the network signalled with (colourblind-accessible) semaphore signals

Only during daylight hours, semaphores use a lamp/light that displays a red/green (or yellow/green if the signal is a distant) aspect in the dark.

 

[jopsuk]

the comparisons with fitness/skill/knowledge based exclusions are a little insulting- those three can generally be worked on with dedication- colour blindness is not the fault of the person nor can it be fixed.

However, those arguing in favour of changing the signalling system to allow colour blind drivers come across, to me, as if they are young and have just discovered that they cannot be train drivers. I'm sorry, but it is a disability (though not one generally considered debilitating enough that you need any special support or benefits) and one that is legally allowed as an exclusion.

 

[dysonsphere]

spotted someone saying you cant be a pilot if youre colour blind. WRONG there are restrictions but there is no bar. Plz get youre facts right.

 

[Kneedown]

Alongside my railway career, I also served in my local Police Force for many years. One day I sustained a spinal injury during a Force rugby match. I spent nearly a year off work having treatment, surgery, and generally battling to get fit again. I thought my problems were over when I appeared before the Force Medical Examiner and he finally passed me as fit. It was not to be however, as it was deemed by those with egg on their hats that I had been away from active duty for so long that it would be necessary for me to undergo full training again. I was not prepared to do this as it would have meant taking more time off from the railway, where my managers had already been brilliant during my time off. It would have been wrong of me to ask for more time off, and so reluctantly decided to resign from the Police.
A few years later, fully fit and recovered I decided I needed a new challenge and applied to the RAF as a reservist. Forms and questionaire's duly filled in, selection weekend and interview passed I was offered a position with Force Protection, RAF Regiment.
I flew through the medical, everything looked good, the Doctor said I was in good shape, and then the hammer blow... "I can't pass you as you've had spinal surgery".
To say I was gutted was putting it lightly.

Was it fair? Who knows, I know myself i'm fully fit to carry a bergen in the field, but they obviously had doubt's, and in a business like that there is no room for passengers or people with higher injury risk.

Do I let it get me down? Not at all. I move on. I'm 45 now, and during those years at no time have I ever signed a contract stipulating that life would be fair!

 

[JamesRowden]

Colour blind people not being allowed to drive trains is an example of rational discrimination.

I think that only irrational discrimination should be considered morally wrong.

 

[valenta]

However, those arguing in favour of changing the signalling system to allow colour blind drivers come across, to me, as if they are young and have just discovered that they cannot be train drivers.

That is more than a little condescending (and untrue in my case). As I stated in my first post, it was reading another thread (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=104809&highlight=Colour) which brought this idea to mind. Train driving was not a career path I would have chosen to go down but it doesn't mean that I don't have sympathy for those who are colourblind and do wish to become a train driver.

 

[Clip]

That is more than a little condescending (and untrue in my case). As I stated in my first post, it was reading another thread (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=104809&highlight=Colour) which brought this idea to mind. Train driving was not a career path I would have chosen to go down but it doesn't mean that I don't have sympathy for those who are colourblind and do wish to become a train driver.

And it is unfortunate for them too but like a lot of things for a lot of people in life thats just how it is. The safe running of a railway far outstrips the needs of a few colourblind people.

 

[valenta]

And it is unfortunate for them too but like a lot of things for a lot of people in life thats just how it is. The safe running of a railway far outstrips the needs of a few colourblind people.

Absolutely, railways can't compromise safety for the sake of allowing colourblind people to drive trains. However I still feel that given time and planning, changes could be made gradually to make train driving a profession which is more accessible for colourblind people.

 

[Minilad]

Where is that gif of someone banging their head against a brick wall when you need it

 

[90019]

Where is that gif of someone banging their head against a brick wall when you need it

 

[455driver]

Absolutely, railways can't compromise safety for the sake of allowing colourblind people to drive trains. However I still feel that given time and planning, changes could be made gradually to make train driving a profession which is more accessible for colourblind people.

I ask again-


WHY SPEND MILLIONS CHANGING THINGS WHICH ARE NOT A PROBLEM

 

[SWTCommuter]

It is possible that gene therapy may become available to treat colour vision deficiency. The research is still in the early stages but it looks quite promising.

http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/september2009/09282009colorblind.htm

http://www.neitzvision.com/content/genetherapy.html

 

[cf111]

Absolutely, railways can't compromise safety for the sake of allowing colourblind people to drive trains. However I still feel that given time and planning, changes could be made gradually to make train driving a profession which is more accessible for colourblind people.

What changes would you make?

 

[Busaholic]

I'm colourblind, but happily I never aspired to being an electrician or an air traffic controller. However, as part of management training scheme with LTE I was sent on guards' training course at White City which I passed, a follow-on to which I received a piece of paper stating I was qualified to drive an underground train in an emergency, the prospect of which would have absolutely frightened me to death, and should have frightened my passengers if they knew. Happily, I had no intention of a career on the trains, living in mid-Kent and non-driving that I was. I never mentioned colour blindness to the instructors and it seemed no hindrance to my (theoretical) passing the test.

Can't see any justification for altering everything for the comparatively few - I also have flat feet and was forced to do cross-country running at school, and THAT was unfair!

 

[najaB]

The DMI is still coloured with various colours having different meanings!

That seems a poor design choice - there's no reason that a in-cab display unit should depend solely on colour to convey information. Making the assumption that it contains some kind of digital display, it should be possible to use colour in combination with symbols or text to convey the necessary information to the driver.

 

[Flamingo]

It would probably be cheaper, easier, and more likely for the train company to employ a minder for the colourblind person and sit beside them, telling them the signal colour...

 

[najaB]

It would probably be cheaper, easier, and more likely for the train company to employ a minder for the colourblind person and sit beside them, telling them the signal colour...

'Problem' solved.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It would probably be cheaper, easier, and more likely for the train company to employ a minder for the colourblind person and sit beside them, telling them the signal colour...

I've heard of software companies hiring people to type for blind computer programmers

 

[DarloRich]

That seems a poor design choice - there's no reason that a in-cab display unit should depend solely on colour to convey information. Making the assumption that it contains some kind of digital display, it should be possible to use colour in combination with symbols or text to convey the necessary information to the driver.

That is exactly what it does but there are still colours you need to differentiate

 

[ilkestonian]

Six pages and counting, and the penny still apparently hasn't dropped that the OP is clearly winding up the members of RailUK.

Or at least I hope so...

 

[Jonny]

On the same basis, does the highways network also discriminate against colourblind people?

As someone who fails the Ishihara over and over, I can say that it doesn't.