"Do not go on the track" : is this all going too far.......

[Gathursty]

I wouldn't even chance going on the track at Altnabreac, let alone Doncaster.

 

[Harbornite]

I'm still baffled as to why you've mentioned London Victoria, a typical rant but no explanation!

He was making a point that it's silly to say one station is safe to trespass in, but another isn't. I think.

 

[ComUtoR]

He was making a point that it's silly to say one station is safe to trespass in, but another isn't. I think.

100%, A++, Newsletter subscribed to.

If anyone wants to say "some" stations are ok to trespass then I will present London Victoria as "safe"

It was a stupid comment to make (mine too)

 

[Llanigraham]

Why would I want to tell you that going onto the track at London Victoria is safe; it would be barmy to claim that. But that isn't what Sheff1 said is it? On the other hand if I dropped my smartphone onto the track at Achnasheen on a Sunday afternoon in mid winter, I might just be tempted to get onto the track to retrieve it and feel that the risk was worth it. It might be easy to assume that everyone is devoid of common sense but in fact most people possess a great deal of it and are well aware when a risk is too high to take. For those who have no common sense, even the law will struggle to make them conform. Notwithstanding all that, I accept that the railways must make their rules based on available evidence but don't be misled into the idea that because they ARE the rules, they must be the best course of action whatever the circumstances.

See my comment earlier about the lady at Harlech!!
Just because the timetable says there is no passenger train doesn't mean something else isn't running!:roll:

 

[RichmondCommu]

OMG:roll:

He's not your God he's AlterEgo.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I recall someone posting this little ditty a few months back -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw

 

[ComUtoR]

I recall someone posting this little ditty a few months back -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw

My kids watch/play that game. Initially I was shocked and told them they could not play it. Then they explained that it was to highlight the dangers rather than glorifying death. I relented.

 

[Bromley boy]

Which part of sheff1's statement is FACTUALLY erroneous?

The bit where he, quite ignorantly, said there's "no danger" you mean?

There is big danger to the rail staff concerned. A danger of having a seriously bad day at work. A day where they have to mop up the bits left behind by someone who chanced it, and got it wrong. Quite a traumatic day at work in the scheme of things!

 

[racyrich]

Network Rail are currently having a big purge on van driving, as they see it as a danger to staff safety. They are of course concentrating on the staff, don't speed, put your seat belt on, etc etc all very worthy but with more than a hint of Nanny knows best. Strangely however there is no mention of them not asking people to drive vast distances, or avoiding having people driving miles at night to do work in blocks that could be done just as easily and probably safer Red Zone in day light.

Having waded through 15 pages of every rail worker insisting that rules are rules and going against them is sheer madness, and that people should patiently wait a few days for their dropped possessions to be retrieved rather than take any sort of risk, I'm stunned it's necessary to mention to rail workers about driving patiently and keeping to the laws of the land.

 

[ComUtoR]

'm stunned it's necessary to mention to rail workers about driving patiently and keeping to the laws of the land.

Trog isn't being exactly honest. I think you should read what the NR studies are all about.

 

[Master29]

I think it`s pointless debating anything with the OP as he has a history of starting similar ridiculous arguments. As a sidelight someone pointed out earlier what would the 3 year old do whilst this "elf and safety" warrior was prancing around on the tracks. Didn`t want to make a scene eh?

 

[Johncleesefan]

You have recently gone from outsider to insider and are now up there with the elite a Driver. What was it like when your first train passed by and you were down at rail level and the great beast went past ?

I had someone recently tell me how scary it was, and he was only at sole bar level.

When I was stood lineside with my class clad out in orange and waiting fr a train I did wonder if perhaps our teacher was nearing the end of sanity/lost the plot.

It was scary, u don't appreciate how massive these things are till your on the ground in their lair. I certainly hope to never be in such a position again.

 

[richieb1971]

I've been to places around the world where the commuters get straight off the train and ALL walk across the tracks. I've got a video of it.

Guess what, nobody died.

This is a British health and safety standard which is not always copied across the world. Whilst I agree high standards should be put in place where railways are concerned, i'm in the belief that quite a few people that don't frequent this forum would quite happily jump onto the track and collect something they have dropped.

I once dropped at ticket onto the track and asked a station employee what he could do. He looked left and right and got down there and got it and gave it to me. This was in the 90's though. From the previous posts I'd imagine that doesn't happen anymore. I am also guessing that its "tough" when officials don't get what you want from the track and since you've already told them its on the track they will hawkeye you until you leave the station.

 

[Dave1987]

I've been to places around the world where the commuters get straight off the train and ALL walk across the tracks. I've got a video of it.

Guess what, nobody died.

This is a British health and safety standard which is not always copied across the world. Whilst I agree high standards should be put in place where railways are concerned, i'm in the belief that quite a few people that don't frequent this forum would quite happily jump onto the track and collect something they have dropped.

I once dropped at ticket onto the track and asked a station employee what he could do. He looked left and right and got down there and got it and gave it to me. This was in the 90's though. From the previous posts I'd imagine that doesn't happen anymore. I am also guessing that its "tough" when officials don't get what you want from the track and since you've already told them its on the track they will hawkeye you until you leave the station.

In a society where people will happily sue if they are injured even if it was their own stupidity then you simply have to make sure they cannot hurt themselves. In the modern society you have people who will walk into ticket barriers and injure themselves because they are too busy trying to catch bloody Pokemon to actually look where they are going!

 

[AlterEgo]

I've been to places around the world where the commuters get straight off the train and ALL walk across the tracks. I've got a video of it.

Guess what, nobody died.

This is a British health and safety standard which is not always copied across the world. Whilst I agree high standards should be put in place where railways are concerned, i'm in the belief that quite a few people that don't frequent this forum would quite happily jump onto the track and collect something they have dropped.

I once dropped at ticket onto the track and asked a station employee what he could do. He looked left and right and got down there and got it and gave it to me. This was in the 90's though. From the previous posts I'd imagine that doesn't happen anymore. I am also guessing that its "tough" when officials don't get what you want from the track and since you've already told them its on the track they will hawkeye you until you leave the station.

What are those countries' safety records like?

The USA is a country like you describe and the fatality rates are horrible.

 

[Tio Terry]

Must admit I've not read all 15 pages of this so if I'm repeating something that's already been said I apologise in advance.

To go on track you need to be trained and hold PTS competency. Many TOC's don't train station staff to PTS levels because of the cost and because their normal duties do not require them to go "On or near the line". That would prevent station staff going on the line to retrieve anything.

 

[PeterC]

Must admit I've not read all 15 pages of this so if I'm repeating something that's already been said I apologise in advance.

To go on track you need to be trained and hold PTS competency. Many TOC's don't train station staff to PTS levels because of the cost and because their normal duties do not require them to go "On or near the line". That would prevent station staff going on the line to retrieve anything.

Which, like route knowledge, is something that "civilians" don't see the point of ....



.... until somthing goes wrong!

 

[Antman]

Must admit I've not read all 15 pages of this so if I'm repeating something that's already been said I apologise in advance.

To go on track you need to be trained and hold PTS competency. Many TOC's don't train station staff to PTS levels because of the cost and because their normal duties do not require them to go "On or near the line". That would prevent station staff going on the line to retrieve anything.

Station staff often try to retrieve such items with a litter picking stick, if they've been unable to retrieve it some passengers take it upon themselves to jump down and get it.

 

[AM9]

I've been to places around the world where the commuters get straight off the train and ALL walk across the tracks. I've got a video of it.

Guess what, nobody died.

So nobody died on the day you were there with your camera. On a sample of 1 visit, you have concluded that there isn't a problem. I assume that if you are in work, nobody relies on you for their safety.

 

[Master29]

Im suprised no one has mentioned "India". There were some documentaries not so long ago about rail in India and I remember one focusing on Mumbai. There` people were walking all over the rails; sometimes right in front of screaming trains, and like here they do have legislation, largely ignored much to the dismay of the staff there too. I remember one guy saying how much it annoys him and on average how many people die or get seriously injured per month as a result. As it isn`t as well policed there it seems a culture of stupidity has taken over. Everyone else does it so why can`t I. Thank god for our rules I say.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Yes, let's talk about in India. In 2014 around 15,000 people were killed after being hit by trains, in the same year 345 people died on Britain's railways and that includes all accidents on stations, level crossings, work site accidents etc.

One of my trains has never been involved in a fatality-that doesn't mean it doesn't happen on a regular basis though.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Im suprised no one has mentioned "India". There were some documentaries not so long ago about rail in India and I remember one focusing on Mumbai. There` people were walking all over the rails; sometimes right in front of screaming trains, and like here they do have legislation, largely ignored much to the dismay of the staff there too. I remember one guy saying how much it annoys him and on average how many people die or get seriously injured per month as a result. As it isn`t as well policed there it seems a culture of stupidity has taken over. Everyone else does it so why can`t I. Thank god for our rules I say.

2014 figures for India.

13,542 fatalities where they were struck by a train or fell from the train, with much the same again not recording a cause of death or because cause of death cannot be ascertained (body found on track).

2,575 fatalities from level crossing misuse (and additional figures for that may be included within the figures above).

 

[DarloRich]

The point is, that if a train was approaching someone on the tracks (say they were unconscious) at 5 or 10mph one assumes the driver would see them and stop.

Assumes - only an idiot would jump down in fronof a train etc - you are detached from the reality if railway operations

Platform 8 at Doncaster is a through road on a curve limiting the time a driver could see you. It is electrified meaning trains are quiet. It could be bi di . Adjacent are two electrified freight roads, the west yard and access to works used by shunters. Where is your place of safety when all lines are open

You are a fool. A bloody dangerous fool.

 

[alxndr]

Blanket rules are there for a reason, to keep people safe. Not just the individual believing it's okay to do something daft like risking their life for a phone, but also those who will undoubtably be watching, including impressionable young people. If there wasn't a blanket rule and it was allowed at "safe" stations (although the railway is never safe), we would start to see an increase of people doing so at busier and riskier stations, and the near misses/deaths which go along with that.

Railways are not safe places. You can never trust or make assumptions, things can change or deviate from what you think is the norm. It's not somewhere you can become complacent for a moment. Incidents have happened when experienced staff have complacent and assumed they know the pattern of passing trains, things changed, and the lookout was caught off guard. These are people who know the dangers and are trained, not someone pratting about on their own thinking they're above it all. That's the attitude that gets people injured or killed.

There are times that I loathe health and safety, it does my nut in to see it go too far and affect reliability for no tangible safety benefit, but even I recognise that it is very necessary in some cases and I'm grateful for it. Going on or near the line is one of those times. Common sense is all well and good, but it's not a commodity that everyone has in abundance, and there are times where even the most rational person might have a "moment". Blanket rules and procedures mitigate against these.

Plus, ever tried climbing back up a platform? It's harder than it looks. The recess/overhang means it's not like climbing a wall and is all in the upper body.

 

[neilmc]

I have already made the point, which seems to be ignored, that safety standards on UK railways are negotiable rather than absolute. Thus there are stations (I cited Silverdale as an example) where despite it being indescribably dangerous and stupid for a passenger to be on the track anywhere in any conceivable circumstance, according to some commentators, you actually HAVE to cross the track to use the Lancaster-bound platform. This could be resolved by building a footbridge, or purchasing land to give access to both platforms from the road, but basically Network Rail are prepared to take the risk that somebody might get mown down by a train here going about their lawful business, and this is duplicated at many other places. Or take DOO, overcrowding, footpath crossings or third rail electrification - suffice it to say that cheapness and economy can and do officially trump safety on the railways.

Now this is NOT to say that jumping down on to the track at a busy main line station like Doncaster is a safe and wise thing to do - you do run a slight risk of a fatal accident if you fail to keep adequate watch and are not very nimble, as you do every time you legally cross a busy main road, but you run a very large risk of some nearby railway employee thinking that this ought to be brought to the attention of the subservient in-house police force which the railways somehow manage to maintain, with a resultant prosecution, under trespass laws which don't apply in any other comparable public place. So, no, don't do it.

All this is to do with taking a risk v reward approach which many of us do on a daily basis, but bear in mind that, as other commentators have admitted, obtaining railway employment requires one to submit to psychometric tests which would weed out anyone more suited to, say, a creative approach to work (that's being discreet). And bear in mind that a substantial number of these commentators also are rail employees themselves, which would preclude them from taking a common-sense approach rather than a rule-based one, and that they may be identified from their participation in these forums. So don't expect anything approaching rationality, and do expect plenty of abuse saying you're an irresponsible idiot, etc - they're used to treating all members of the public like morons just because a few are.

But generally it's NOT a good idea to venture on to the track, particularly from a platform edge, but I would consider the value of what I'd dropped versus the likelihood AT THAT LOCATION of encountering a train I couldn't see or hear adequately or encountering a modern-day rail employee or being picked up by a CCTV camera. Just take care.

 

[Skoodle]

Why is this thread 16 pages long already?

If you drop something on the track, inform the nearest member of staff (face to face or phone on platform at an unmanned station) AND FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS.

Can't get simpler than that no?

 

[Domh245]

I have already made the point, which seems to be ignored, that safety standards on UK railways are negotiable rather than absolute.

Whilst you could argue that trespassing at somewhere like a quiet station is unlikely to see you hit by a train, the fact of the matter is that the standards (whether you like it or not) are absolute. Sure it may not be as dangerous to trespass at Newhaven Marine than at Clapham Junction, but the point still stands - noone is allowed on the track anywhere, unless they've gone through the required steps.

I think that you are confusing risk with safety standards.

 

[alxndr]

The rules are not negotiable, the public is allowed within the boundary at specified points for the purpose of crossing. That is all that is allowed, end of.

 

[Kentish Paul]

I was at Doncaster station with my three year old yesterday and he threw my phone on the track. ].

Why did your 3 year old have your phone?

 

[Darandio]

Can't get simpler than that no?

According to some, apparently not. Something about disagreement being healthy.