DMU "Paytrain" Operated Routes now closed?

[Pyewipecarshed]

Quick paytrain question, could you buy through tickets from the conductor or could they only sell tickets to destinations served by the train?

Originally they could only sell tickets for the stations served by the train; through passengers had to book another ticket when they changed at a staffed station.
IIRC it was when PORTIS machines came in in the early to mid 80s that guards gained the ability to sell through fares.

 

[Dore & Totley]

Originally they could only sell tickets for the stations served by the train; through passengers had to book another ticket when they changed at a staffed station.
IIRC it was when PORTIS machines came in in the early to mid 80s that guards gained the ability to sell through fares.

Thank you

 

[Magdalia]

The real tragedy was Hunstanton, where Beeching apparently "forgot" about summer traffic.

Hunstanton was not a Beeching closure.

What killed Hunstanton was the Public Service Obligation under the Transport Act 1968, and the Eastern Counties 2 buses per hour service.

The summer traffic declined steeply in the 1960s with the expansion of car ownership. Hunstanton was unusual in that it relied heavily on day trips from places not far away, most of which easily switched to road, there was very little holiday traffic with people staying for a week or two.

 

[izvor]

Hunstanton was not a Beeching closure.

I find Kings Lynn particularly interesting in that Beeching proposed no lines for closure - the M&GN had already gone. Yet within a few years 3 of its 4 lines had closed (Wisbech, Norwich, Hunstanton), quite a blow for the town and West Norfolk if they thought they had escaped the axe.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

I find Kings Lynn particularly interesting in that Beeching proposed no lines for closure - the M&GN had already gone. Yet within a few years 3 of its 4 lines had closed (Wisbech, Norwich, Hunstanton), quite a blow for the town and West Norfolk if they thought they had escaped the axe.

I think its the case that quite a few closures blamed on Beeching were actually not on his list - I guess partly a question of staff at BR getting the "stuck in" and widening the remit plus changing circumstances. My own local line was recommended for retention but was closed when the plans for Blackpool were revised. But I'm not convinced that there would have been a great case to retain the Fleetwood branch once the docks went into decline.

 

[RT4038]

Originally they could only sell tickets for the stations served by the train; through passengers had to book another ticket when they changed at a staffed station.

Or if the passenger was changing from one PayTrain to another (e.g. Lowestoft to Cromer), they had to buy two separate tickets, one on each train. Much like contemporary bus practice, which is what it was modelled on. The ticketing system in use could not practically cope with anything else. This changed with the introduction of Electronic Ticket Machines (in the 90s?). Initially, certainly on the Eastern Region, you couldn't buy a ticket for the PayTrain even at locations where there was a ticket office. I am not sure entirely sure whether this for accounting purposes or a Union agreement because conductors got commission on ticket sales; but I think this was later changed during the late 70s. I remember that the (LM Region) ticket office at Bletchley sold Woburn Sands tickets from (I think) an Ultimatic machine.

 

[Djgr]

I think its the case that quite a few closures blamed on Beeching were actually not on his list - I guess partly a question of staff at BR getting the "stuck in" and widening the remit plus changing circumstances. My own local line was recommended for retention but was closed when the plans for Blackpool were revised. But I'm not convinced that there would have been a great case to retain the Fleetwood branch once the docks went into decline.

On the other hand, whoever authorised the closure of the Hunstanton branch should be sent to drive up and down the A149 on a summer Saturday for all eternity.

 

[Chrius56000]

On the other hand, whoever authorised the closure of the Hunstanton branch should be sent to drive up and down the A149 on a summer Saturday for all eternity.

. . ."RAIL" Magazine did an article on the prospects for re–opening Kings Lynn–Hunstanton and one point mentioned in it was that N.C.C. specifically didn't want to dual the A149 because it would make the business case for re–opening much worse – its an academic point now perhaps, but shouldn't this former line have been part of "Restoring Your Railway?"

 

[30907]

Originally they could only sell tickets for the stations served by the train; through passengers had to book another ticket when they changed at a staffed station.

Some routes could sell to a select few stations beyond the junction - but through ticketing from the main network was often unavailable (my 1980-ish manuals have fares marked "Warrant Traffic Only" for the likes of Saltburn).

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Some routes could sell to a select few stations beyond the junction - but through ticketing from the main network was often unavailable (my 1980-ish manuals have fares marked "Warrant Traffic Only" for the likes of Saltburn).

I get that Paytrain guards wouldn’t be able to sell to many destinations given the technology of the day but don’t understand why you wouldn’t be able to buy a ticket from a staffed station elsewhere. That’s just being down right awkward.

 

[AY1975]

How long did "Paytrain" remain as a brand, incidentally?

I'd say at least from the late 1960s until the late 1980s, but the concept remains in situ to this day albeit on a diminishing number of routes as ticket vending machines and ticketing websites and apps have reduced on-board ticket sales in recent years.

In the 1980s I remember "Pay Trains" (space between the two words) being referred to in on-train signage directing passengers on how to buy their tickets ("On Pay Trains, ....") Specifically, I remember the Reading-Gatwick/Tonbridge 119s having this signage (even though most stations were staffed?) as well as the 108s used on the Mid-Cheshire route, in both cases in the early-to-mid 80s.

As I recall the full wording of those signs was something like: "On Pay Trains please state your destination to the guard and tender the exact fare if possible. Check that your ticket shows the correct destination and fare paid, retaining it for examination or collection.

"Passengers are reminded that a valid ticket is required for each journey made."

A lot of first generation DMUs had those signs in the passenger saloons in the 1980s, even if they were also sometimes used on non-Pay Train services. I also seem to recall that some Pacers and Class 150 Sprinters had them when new.

 

[Djgr]

I'd say at least from the late 1960s until the late 1980s, but the concept remains in situ to this day albeit on a diminishing number of routes as ticket vending machines and ticketing websites and apps have reduced on-board ticket sales in recent years.

and also the introduction of Penalty Fares with veiled and actual threats of Paying on the Train (the very activity customers were specifically told to do for many years!)

 

[Mr. SW]

Somewhere, in a box in storage or similar, I still have my Paytrain tickets for Norwich-Sheringham from 1977. BTW, re the Hunstanton closure: I have childhood memories from the late 60s to early 70s of family seaside trips to Lowestoft and Sheringham in trains packed to standing. So what gives? I suspect BR closed it because they could.

Was Bury to Rawtenstall a Paytrain?

 

[Springs Branch]

Was Bury to Rawtenstall a Paytrain?

See second part of Post #29 above & photo at Stubbins station.

 

[MadMac]

I'd say at least from the late 1960s until the late 1980s, but the concept remains in situ to this day albeit on a diminishing number of routes as ticket vending machines and ticketing websites and apps have reduced on-board ticket sales in recent years.

As I recall the full wording of those signs was something like: "On Pay Trains please state your destination to the guard and tender the exact fare if possible. Check that your ticket shows the correct destination and fare paid, retaining it for examination or collection.

"Passengers are reminded that a valid ticket is required for each journey made."

A lot of first generation DMUs had those signs in the passenger saloons in the 1980s, even if they were also sometimes used on non-Pay Train services. I also seem to recall that some Pacers and Class 150 Sprinters had them when new.

Searching for the word ‘pay’ on the Railcar site’s photo gallery HERE yielded a couple of examples of these signs. I recall seeing them on Scottish DMUs which had been transferred from elsewhere.

 

[RPI]

Searching for the word ‘pay’ on the Railcar site’s photo gallery HERE yielded a couple of examples of these signs. I recall seeing them on Scottish DMUs which had been transferred from elsewhere.

I recall seeing them on old DMU's and the 150's, but strangely never recalled seeing them on 153's.

 

[LowLevel]

I recall seeing them on old DMU's and the 150's, but strangely never recalled seeing them on 153's.

I think the concept was more or less done away with by the time the 153s were on the scene when the guards had been regraded to trainmen, conductors or senior conductors with on board ticketing with (S)PORTIS being standard with Open Stations with the exception of the few remaining non revenue trainman worked routes.

Certainly by the 90s pay on the train was standard and in my area pretty keen Assistant Ticket Examiners, themselves regraded former Travelling Ticket Inspectors flew around the place with the conductors.

Ironically at my TOC the previous franchise holder decided to effectively remove the ATE grade and replace them with vending machines and sporadically enforced penalty fares, the guards struggle to deal with the increased volume of passengers and ticketless travel is now higher than before.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

I recall seeing them on old DMU's and the 150's, but strangely never recalled seeing them on 153's.

The extra weight of the sticker would have prevented the 153 moving lol.

On a more sensible note the 155s that they were converted from were express units which were not generally expected to see use on "paytrain" services, so wouldn't have carried the notices. So there wouldn't have been any to leave in place during the conversion.
And as @LowLevel says the brand had been done away with by the time the 153s emerged, so they wouldn't have had any applied.

 

[Mr. SW]

See second part of Post #29 above & photo at Stubbins station.

Ah! I skipped a page when browsing.

But there did seem to be a concerted effort by BR to target urban/suburban/commuter lines in the late 60s and early 70s particularly in the face of the introduction of the Passenger Transport Executives. Maybe I am just suspicious.

Maybe for discussion elsewhere.

 

[AY1975]

Searching for the word ‘pay’ on the Railcar site’s photo gallery HERE yielded a couple of examples of these signs. I recall seeing them on Scottish DMUs which had been transferred from elsewhere.

It would appear that there were at least two different versions of that sign. I was almost spot on with the wording of the version illustrated in the second of those photos, except that it said check that your ticket shows the correct date rather than destination.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure if tickets issued by Paytrain guards in the days before PORTIS machines would have shown the destination or point of origin, just as bus tickets of that era didn't.

 

[Man of Kent]

It would appear that there were at least two different versions of that sign. I was almost spot on with the wording of the version illustrated in the second of those photos, except that it said check that your ticket shows the correct date rather than destination.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure if tickets issued by Paytrain guards in the days before PORTIS machines would have shown the destination or point of origin, just as bus tickets of that era didn't.

Both Almex and Omniprinter used codes for the origin and destination. As Omniprinter was considerably larger, it usually included a list of stations with their codes, as per this example on Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/sludgeulper/5357975144

Edit: this photo of a Norwich Division Almex does not include obvious origin and destination information

Almex A

The front and rear of an Almex A ticket, issued by the Norwich division of the British Railways Eastern Region. Almex A tickets were used for on-board ticket issuing. The system saw much wider use in the bus industry. Railway ticketing had perhaps met its nadir with these tiny, flimsy...

www.flickr.com

although the "-0" to the left of the fare (0.50) is almost certainly a code for the origin point (equivalent to a fare stage on a bus ticket).

 

[Sleepy]

Yes Paytrain was a very effective brand.

It was ironic that the railway moved to Payanywherebutonthetrain.

They still have a strong pay on the train culture on East Anglia branch lines (even if the company hates it - stuck TVM's on every minor station before e-tickets took off)

 

[Western Sunset]

I believe that these Snow Hill services were so "residual" that they were operated by single car "bubble cars", necessary for such a Paytrain operation as the ex-Western Region lines around Birmingham had brought with them a large WR fleet of Derby-built suburban dmus with no corridor connections.

Indeed they were "bubble cars".

 

[izvor]

although the "-0" to the left of the fare (0.50) is almost certainly a code for the origin point (equivalent to a fare stage on a bus ticket).

I'm sure you are correct, but the fact that it is set to "-0" suggests to me that it was not used as such, at least on this machine. Lazy guard or, more likely, local or regional policy.

 

[RPI]

I think the concept was more or less done away with by the time the 153s were on the scene when the guards had been regraded to trainmen, conductors or senior conductors with on board ticketing with (S)PORTIS being standard with Open Stations with the exception of the few remaining non revenue trainman worked routes.

Certainly by the 90s pay on the train was standard and in my area pretty keen Assistant Ticket Examiners, themselves regraded former Travelling Ticket Inspectors flew around the place with the conductors.

Ironically at my TOC the previous franchise holder decided to effectively remove the ATE grade and replace them with vending machines and sporadically enforced penalty fares, the guards struggle to deal with the increased volume of passengers and ticketless travel is now higher than before.

I seem to remember early on in the days of open stations, that you'd be charged an extra £1 on the train (or 50p?) when the booking office was open, or did I imagine that?

 

[AlterEgo]

I have found a reference that says that dieselisation of the Callington line took place on 7 September 1964: two-car sets on passenger and D6300 on goods (and possibly one or two passenger). The first day went badly when the 05.30 from Callington failed at Gunnislake.

Source: Tamar Valley Trains (John T R Snell, BEH, 2013). N.b. not the RH&DR John Snell; this was a local railwayman.

Picture of DMU om 1964 at Callington here: https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/6436180

 

[Taunton]

Callington dieselised a couple of years before closure then. I've likewise found a whole video on the line, including the last train in 1966 (from the 44 minute mark), with various dmus, D63xx diesel locos, etc.

Picture of DMU om 1964 at Callington here: https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/6436180

Taken a couple of years before closure, showing one of the motley range of diesels the WR drafted in to former SR territory; this is one of the early Derby Suburban 3-car units from South Wales, with only second class accommodation, the W50080 range, recognisable by the four marker lights and no two-character routing panel. It seemed one of every type from elsewhere in the WR had been brought in, including a couple of the 4-wheeled railbuses; one of these would have been quite adequate for the Callington line given typical loads. A 3-car suburban unit, four underfloor engines and about 260 seats, was an absolute overkill.

 

[Bodiam]

It seemed one of every type from elsewhere in the WR had been brought in, including a couple of the 4-wheeled railbuses; one of these would have been quite adequate for the Callington line given typical loads. A 3-car suburban unit, four underfloor engines and about 260 seats, was an absolute overkill.

As I recall, the former narrow gauge section up to Gunnislake has some steep gradients and vicious curves so a railbus might have struggled.

 

[Gloster]

As I recall, the former narrow gauge section up to Gunnislake has some steep gradients and vicious curves so a railbus might have struggled.

I believe that it was normal practice to take the unpowered intermediate trailer out of units diagrammed for this line and just run them with two powered vehicles. If a third coach was required, three being (I believe) the maximum permitted on the line in later years, they coupled another Driving Motor to one end.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

As I recall, the former narrow gauge section up to Gunnislake has some steep gradients and vicious curves so a railbus might have struggled.

The 'Skipper' aka 'Pacer' railbuses some 20 years later were, of course, an ignominious failure up to Gunnislake and had to be moved quickly elsewhere.

When Devonport Dockyard was in full swing the early train was busy; and even today the morning school / college run from Gunnislake is quite 'cosy' in a two car '150'.