DLR B23 Stock (CAF Inneo)

[JCO1406]

Its been a month now since the first train entered service. How many units are in service now?

 

[Roast Veg]

Difficult to say unless Beckton depot is open again - it was closed all weekend I believe.

 

[JCO1406]

I can confirm that I saw 2 units on the woolwich line plus a test train. Didnt catch the numbers tho

 

[TheManWho]

I can confirm that I saw 2 units on the woolwich line plus a test train. Didnt catch the numbers tho

I believe yesterday was 211 and 224 in service, 237 was the test train

 

[charles123]

Was travelling today and overheard the PSA talking to a colleague. Supposedly the B23s have been withdrawn due to frequent overruns at present. Seems to be a software/ signalling issue.

 

[simple simon]

Supposedly the B23s have been withdrawn due to frequent overruns at present. Seems to be a software/ signalling issue.

That reminds me what was said (ie: rumour, 'hearsay') to have happened when testing of the new trains first began. It was never officially stated however that this was happening.

 

[tram21]

Are all trains still withdrawn, or are any in service today?

 

[bramling]

What sections realistically allow a full 80kph? I am assuming that would likely only be achieved when running late. I know SelTrac on the District line will set slower maximum speeds when the train is running to time, and will uplift the maximum in places to aid service recovery.
The braking curve does seem almost too slow, are these units too light footed or is it simply to make best use of the regenerative capability?

It’s a bit of a myth that Seltrac “speeds up” when late. What it does is impose a velocity ceiling if the system calculates that the train will arrive significantly early at the next station. So it all depends on how much slack there is in the timetabled run times versus reality.

If you take something like the Northern Line, most of the time the train runs at full speed. There’s a handful of sections where you’re more likely to see slower running, but in general it’s fairly rare. Where you’re most likely to see it is if you have a driver who is very quick with the station dwell times and has the doors closed ready to move as soon as the target point advances, or at very quiet times of day again where dwells are short.

There is no uplifting to aid recovery. The speed profile is exactly the same for an on time train as it is for a late one.

 

[MCR247]

It’s a bit of a myth that Seltrac “speeds up” when late. What it does is impose a velocity ceiling if the system calculates that the train will arrive significantly early at the next station. So it all depends on how much slack there is in the timetabled run times versus reality.

If you take something like the Northern Line, most of the time the train runs at full speed. There’s a handful of sections where you’re more likely to see slower running, but in general it’s fairly rare. Where you’re most likely to see it is if you have a driver who is very quick with the station dwell times and has the doors closed ready to move as soon as the target point advances, or at very quiet times of day again where dwells are short.

There is no uplifting to aid recovery. The speed profile is exactly the same for an on time train as it is for a late one.

How interesting, thanks for explaining

 

[Mattplans]

Was travelling today and overheard the PSA talking to a colleague. Supposedly the B23s have been withdrawn due to frequent overruns at present. Seems to be a software/ signalling issue.

On an older train this morning that overran! Is this a common issue at all - never had it happen before?

 

[100andthirty]

On an older train this morning that overran! Is this a common issue at all - never had it happen before?

Out of interest, what time was that and at which station?

 

[Mattplans]

Out of interest, what time was that and at which station?

This was at Deptford Bridge around 7:10 am. The train was being operated from the front though, and a loud noise sounded and the panel was lit red next to "I" on their dispatch panel. The operator reversed the train from the front into the correct stopping pos and the journey continued without issue, at least until I got off at Canary Wharf.

 

[DGP]

This was at Deptford Bridge around 7:10 am. The train was being operated from the front though, and a loud noise sounded and the panel was lit red next to "I" on their dispatch panel. The operator reversed the train from the front into the correct stopping pos and the journey continued without issue, at least until I got off at Canary Wharf.

I did a few journeys on the DLR yesterday and all were being operated from the front. Maybe a bigger issue of which the overrunning was a symptom of?

 

[Mattplans]

I did a few journeys on the DLR yesterday and all were being operated from the front. Maybe a bigger issue of which the overrunning was a symptom of?

Interesting, all of my recent journeys on the DLR have been operated from the front. But this isn’t uncommon at all at late times presumably operators have been on their feet all day. Even at any given time it’s not uncommon to see trains being operated from the front. Did you look at other passing trains to see if they too were being operated from the front?

 

[tom1996]

Strange, I was on a B09 train at Bow Church on Tuesday and the train over ran (even though only 2 car so still well within the platform) and made a loud noise and the dispatcher had to re position but he was in the rear unit

 

[Mattplans]

Strange, I was on a B09 train at Bow Church on Tuesday and the train over ran (even though only 2 car so still well within the platform) and made a loud noise and the dispatcher had to re position but he was in the rear unit

This is exactly what happened to me at Deptford Bridge. Wonder what’s going on. In my situation, the dispatcher was driving from the front and was able to reverse it from the front panel. Surprised that is allowed. Interesting the B23s were at one point withdrawn for overrunning when it seems it might be a network-wide issue.

 

[Phil9002]

BBC reporting that all B23s have been withdrawn after the overrunning in service - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyperz93j3o

 

[Bungle73]

The new trains have been withdrawn.

How was this not picked up in testing??

 

[LUYMun]

CAF living up to its name.

 

[Geogregor]

What a debacle...

 

[Mattplans]

TfL denied it was embarrassing and did not say when the new trains will be fixed but has apologised.

Perhaps a bit of embarassment is due here, the trains were about 18 months late into passenger service accruing an extra expense to the taxpayer when TFL had to pay extra to store them overseas (is this still happening?) as they had no depot space here in London....

Now it seems they didn't even last a full month in revenue earning service.

What's interesting is that in this thread experiences of overrunning have been recounted that did not occur on the new trains. I wonder if somehow concessions made in the network/engineering to allow these new trains to be seamlessly integrated is causing issues to the rest of the fleet? Or perhaps it's just a result of an aging signalling system and aging fleet.

Either way the passenger is set for more weekend closures and no new trains.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Break issues apparently.

 

[Thirteen]

I assume they'll be back in service ASAP once they've identified the issue.

Will be interesting to see which train had the issue because 209 seemed fine when I was on it a few weeks back.

 

[Geogregor]

I assume they'll be back in service ASAP once they've identified the issue.

I don't assume anything when we are talking about introducing any new rolling stock nowadays, just look at class 701 or 810...

 

[Thirteen]

I don't assume anything when we are talking about introducing any new rolling stock nowadays, just look at class 701 or 810...

TfL can't exactly scrap the B23s just because this one issue especially with the B92s on their last legs.

 

[Bayum]

Supposedly, one of the vehicles overshot a platform and being withdrawn for investigation as a result

 

[DLRnotDave]

What's interesting is that in this thread experiences of overrunning have been recounted that did not occur on the new trains. I wonder if somehow concessions made in the network/engineering to allow these new trains to be seamlessly integrated is causing issues to the rest of the fleet? Or perhaps it's just a result of an aging signalling system and aging fleet.

Slight overruns (stop shorts are actually more common) and emergency brake applications are relatively normal during low adhesion on the old trains, it's just a quirk of Sel-Trac.
The B23 incident sounds like it highlighted an issue with the train/s itself.

FWIW I don't think they'll be back in service before Christmas

 

[Geogregor]

TfL can't exactly scrap the B23s just because this one issue especially with the B92s on their last legs.

Of course they can't scrap them but god knows how long will take them to sort out the issue. Let's just say that the whole process up to date doesn't fill me with the confidence of quick resolution.

 

[Taunton]

Slight overruns (stop shorts are actually more common) and emergency brake applications are relatively normal during low adhesion on the old trains, it's just a quirk of Sel-Trac.
The B23 incident sounds like it highlighted an issue with the train/s itself.

FWIW I don't think they'll be back in service before Christmas

I've actually used the DLR constantly since the day it opened and have never experienced any overrun/underrun, so can't accept "relatively normal".

Bear in mind the new trains are "B23" because they were ordered to go into service in 2023. In a few weeks time it's going to be 2026, and there still seem significant issues preventing the new trains operating. Any cost "saving" by going to a different builder instead of the established one for the previous trains, who had all the knowledge of DLR train/track/signal interface, must have been long since lost. I still believe the current team don't understand the issues and are groping their way along.

BBC article here:

New DLR trains withdrawn over faulty braking system

DLR trains introduced in October have been withdrawn because the brakes are not working properly.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[DGP]

I've actually used the DLR constantly since the day it opened and have never experienced any overrun/underrun, so can't accept "relatively normal".

Bear in mind the new trains are "B23" because they were ordered to go into service in 2023. In a few weeks time it's going to be 2026, and there still seem significant issues preventing the new trains operating. Any cost "saving" by going to a different builder instead of the established one for the previous trains, who had all the knowledge of DLR train/track/signal interface, must have been long since lost. I still believe the current team don't understand the issues and are groping their way along.

BBC article here:

New DLR trains withdrawn over faulty braking system

DLR trains introduced in October have been withdrawn because the brakes are not working properly.

www.bbc.co.uk

I'm also a regular DLR user since I moved to Docklands 27 years ago and I have experienced only a couple of overruns in that time so I can understand what you mean and that you can't equate "normal" with "frequent". However I equate "normal" with a situation which has been anticipated and can be dealt with as part of the day-to-day routine, for which operators have been trained for and doesn't require attention from engineers or other support staff or shutting down the railway.