DLR B23 Stock (CAF Inneo)

[Snow1964]

Where are the new trains? They don't appear to be in the UK. And has production now been completed? If so it's always an issue getting commissioning issues attended to if the production line team has been dispersed. If nothing else, there's the risk of them running out of warranty before they are first used.

Only about 3 or 4 have been delivered

5 weeks ago TfL Board papers said 40 trains were built, most are being stored by CAF in Spain at TfLs request. So maybe 42-43 now built.

The additional sidings at Becton had been delayed because the building contractor went bust, although another company had since been appointed to finish them. I am guessing once these sidings are commissioned then the trains will resume being delivered. From memory they come in sections on long road trailers on the ferry from Spain (to Portsmouth or Plymouth ?). So will probably take weeks round trip for the special transport vehicles to collect one and deliver to London.

 

[Taunton]

The additional sidings at Becton had been delayed because the building contractor went bust, although another company had since been appointed to finish them. I

Contractor Buckingham went under two years ago. Another mainstream contractor, Balfour Beatty, then got the work, to finish them, and did so last year. It's only open air sidings, for goodness sake. The main depot buildings etc expansion, needed to lift a whole new full-length train all at once, has always been with another contractor, Morgan Sindall. Buckingham had just got the easy bit outside.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Contractor Buckingham went under two years ago. Another mainstream contractor, Balfour Beatty, then got the work, to finish them, and did so last year. It's only open air sidings, for goodness sake. The main depot buildings etc expansion, needed to lift a whole new full-length train all at once, has always been with another contractor, Morgan Sindall. Buckingham had just got the easy bit outside.

So do we know how the main depot building is going then? Must have been delays to that too.

 

[Kay_M]

I genuinely hope this isn't going to be like the 358 bus route saga all over again.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I genuinely hope this isn't going to be like the 358 bus route saga all over again.

Or the class 701 saga

 

[Geogregor]

Or the class 701 saga

I was about to write the same. Nothing seems to be going right in recent years regarding fleet introductions.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I was about to write the same. Nothing seems to be going right in recent years regarding fleet introductions.

Indeed - if Nigel Gresley had had the same problems the "Silver Jubilee" wouldn't have been in service until George V - in whose honour it was named - had been dead for five years (and probably not at all, given contemporary world events, and the fact that Gresley himself had died by then)

 

[Kay_M]

Or the class 701 saga

With that now I still don't understand what the hold up with that fleet is?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The complete silence from all parties involved in the project and lack of tangible progress is quite concerning. Still no indication when the other trains will be delivered.

 

[Taunton]

The complete silence from all parties involved in the project and lack of tangible progress is quite concerning. Still no indication when the other trains will be delivered.

For the last couple of weeks certain services have been truncated and the Beckton to Stratford service completely withdrawn, even at peak hours, with no compensating lengthening of the remaining overlapping services. The notices state that this is to further extend the life of the current fleet (already done once, cutting 3 car trains down to 2), along with apologies for the inconvenience. It appears nothing to do with the previous "testing", which actually appears to have been testing-that-wasn't.

Corrosion of the car bodies under the windows is now quite extensive, never at all apparent in the previous 30-35 year life, which rather points to some aspect of maintenance having been given up a bit prematurely. Hopefully it doesn't get to the stage of the wonderful old trains on the Glasgow Underground by the 1970s, where the window glass occasionally fell out as they were rolling along.

I do wonder if there is some issue where they don't know how to resolve it.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I do wonder if there is some issue where they don't know how to resolve it.

Seems like it - I'd guess it's something to do with the signalling system compatibility as that's been the main source of problems so far.
Doesn't help that Thales isn't exactly known for collaborating with TfL effectively, although they're good at sending over invoices in the meantime...

I wonder what's going on with that depot though! As you've said before, the company that went under was only doing the open air sidings, which has since been completed by another contractor. The larger site was always the responsibility of a different party, so what's going on there?

 

[swtrains]

I was about to write the same. Nothing seems to be going right in recent years regarding fleet introductions.

Well that's what happens when you don't spend a bit more for Siemens.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Well that's what happens when you don't spend a bit more for Siemens.

Mind you the issues with the introduction of the B23 isn’t because of faults with the train itself but rather the infrastructure. CAF has done quite a good job on that front to be honest.

 

[Taunton]

Mind you the issues with the introduction of the B23 isn’t because of faults with the train itself but rather the infrastructure. CAF has done quite a good job on that front to be honest.

It is very difficult to accept this line from the new train team when the existing system, trains and infrastructure, has operated pretty faultlessly for the last quarter-century and more, and are carrying on as such, but the new trains are not capable of doing so. Quite how new trains incapable of operating on the current system are considered a "good job" is a bit of a stretch. The existing system and trains have been there all along for them to study.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

It is very difficult to accept this line from the new train team when the existing system, trains and infrastructure, has operated pretty faultlessly for the last quarter-century and more, and are carrying on as such, but the new trains are not capable of doing so. Quite how new trains incapable of operating on the current system are considered a "good job" is a bit of a stretch. The existing system and trains have been there all along for them to study.

It’s very far from a perfect system. Installed in the early 90s, it’s in dire need of replacement. Only recently did TfL realise that over the course of time the speed limits being communicated by the wire loops to the trains had slipped 5kph forward.

 

[DanNCL]

It’s very far from a perfect system. Installed in the early 90s, it’s in dire need of replacement. Only recently did TfL realise that over the course of time the speed limits being communicated by the wire loops to the trains had slipped 5kph forward.

That may be but it's the system that the trains were expected to operate on and therefore the trains should have been built capable of operating on it. In my opinion the question is who screwed up? Did CAF live up to the 'Cheap And Faulty' nickname or is the issue perhaps that someone screwed up the spec when ordering these trains and CAF have built exactly what was asked of them? We may never know the answer.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

That may be but it's the system that the trains were expected to operate on and therefore the trains should have been built capable of operating on it. In my opinion the question is who screwed up? Did CAF live up to the 'Cheap And Faulty' nickname or is the issue perhaps that someone screwed up the spec when ordering these trains and CAF have built exactly what was asked of them? We may never know the answer.

If anything is wrong the vehicle side of the TBTC system that would be Thales’s fault as they provide the VOCB which is entirely responsible for the control of movement.

The pipeline is as follows:
1. Information received by receiver from wire loop
2. Information sent to the VOCB which processes it
3. VOCB sends signal to relevant component controller e.g. motor or brake

 

[Taunton]

It's not interesting ping-ponging WHO didn't communicate correctly, the DLR specifiers, the vehicle builders or the signalling suppliers. The fact is they are all part of a single project, they are all getting revenue and their careers from it, and the fact is the trains seemingly don't work, there's no sensible information on why not, and time is just slipping on, and the substantial capital expenditure from public funds is just being wasted.

I did write here a while ago about how one of my office colleagues pointed to Easyjet taking delivery of a new £100m aircraft on a Friday and having it in full all-day revenue-earning service the following Monday. It might have even happened in the rail industry once upon a time, but it sure doesn't happen now. It's no wonder that the government and the Treasury despair of rail projects as money down the drain.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

I did write here a while ago about how one of my office colleagues pointed to Easyjet taking delivery of a new £100m aircraft on a Friday and having it in full all-day revenue-earning service the following Monday

That’s not a fair example - easyjet only fly A320 variants so they already had the infrastructure there ready and crews trained. All that was required was to prepare the newly delivered addition to the pre-existing fleet, which isn’t a very difficult task compared to if for example they were ordering a brand new type. Same applies to trains - once you have a rollout going, the introduction of a new unit isn’t a very monumental task as you’re simply focusing on a single asset

 

[DanNCL]

It's not interesting ping-ponging WHO didn't communicate correctly, the DLR specifiers, the vehicle builders or the signalling suppliers. The fact is they are all part of a single project, they are all getting revenue and their careers from it, and the fact is the trains seemingly don't work, there's no sensible information on why not, and time is just slipping on, and the substantial capital expenditure from public funds is just being wasted.

I did write here a while ago about how one of my office colleagues pointed to Easyjet taking delivery of a new £100m aircraft on a Friday and having it in full all-day revenue-earning service the following Monday. It might have even happened in the rail industry once upon a time, but it sure doesn't happen now. It's no wonder that the government and the Treasury despair of rail projects as money down the drain.

I think it is important who is at fault, the delay to these units will have cost a figure with far too many zeros on the end and it’s only right that the at fault party or parties are the ones that foot the bill for the delay, not the taxpayer.

The aircraft comparison isn’t helpful here. First in type aircraft testing is just as extensive as it is with trains (and just as delay prone - see the Boeing 777X), and each subsequent aircraft off the production line still has to be tested to a similar level as a new train before entering service. The difference is that Airbus/Boeing test the aircraft before delivery so it’s ready to run when it arrives, whereas trains are generally delivered and then tested after delivery.

 

[Kay_M]

So services are suspended this weekend on some parts of the network. I do wonder if we are any closer to having the new trains in service as the older B90/92/2K stock are really on their last legs now. I have no idea how much longer they can hold out for.

 

[boiledbeans2]

[...]I do wonder if we are any closer to having the new trains in service as the older B90/92/2K stock are really on their last legs now. I have no idea how much longer they can hold out for.

Why are the B90/92/2K stock on their last legs? The B2K stock is only 25 years old, which is relatively young. There are quite a lot of older trains still running in the UK.

Apologies if this has already been answered earlier in the thread.

 

[Kay_M]

Why are the B90/92/2K stock on their last legs? The B2K stock is only 25 years old, which is relatively young. There are quite a lot of older trains still running in the UK.

Apologies if this has already been answered earlier in the thread.

The way the train feels rough and messy ride wise compared to the B07 stock is night and day. The older trains literally feels like it's shaking especially around the Lewisham branch

 

[Taunton]

Have to say that from daily usage I haven't experienced any shortfalls at all with the older B90 etc units. Which is more than I can say for the Liz Line yesterday morning, a train just missing, 15 minute gap at Canary Wharf, no announcement of why or anything. But the initial DLR getting to and fro was spot on. As normal.

For older stock carrying on the issues are commonly running out of spares where the stocks have been run down, and even shortfalls of technical staff, where these have left but no new hires are trained up on the older units.

 

[Snow1964]

So services are suspended this weekend on some parts of the network. I do wonder if we are any closer to having the new trains in service as the older B90/92/2K stock are really on their last legs now. I have no idea how much longer they can hold out for.

The most recent public update was the TfL Board Programmes and Investment Committee papers, from early March, so two months old now

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/pic-20250305-part-1-agenda-pack-corrected-website.pdf

DLR is section 10 and paragraph 4.2 states
... first trains into public service as soon as possible, and before end of 2025
... More than 40 trains have been manufactured and we remain ready to accelerate train delivery and deployment once the depot capacity, signalling fixes, and testing allow this.

Paragraph 4.3 suggests the new Becton Southern sidings came into use Christmas 2024, with depot access improvements available from February 2025. Which suggests depot capacity is now increased.

There is a further reference to Balfour Beatty designing and building depot southern expansion (although from previous papers this appears to be for the extra trains that were linked to housing that were added to end of train build run. So not needed yet.

Taking these together suggests to me something in the signalling or signalling interface track to trains is holding everything up.

 

[Taunton]

DLR is section 10 and paragraph 4.2 states
... first trains into public service as soon as possible, and before end of 2025

If I went to my company board meeting, was asked what my project completion date was, and said "as soon as possible" I would be soon relieved of my position. However can you do mainstream financial planning of costs and cash flow like that? Does nobody have any idea what needs to be done and has scheduled how long it will take? Notably the board notes, once again, have absolutely no discussion or documentation about what the issues or the additional costs are. Whatever purpose does such a board meeting serve then?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The most recent public update was the TfL Board Programmes and Investment Committee papers, from early March, so two months old now

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/pic-20250305-part-1-agenda-pack-corrected-website.pdf

TfL board meetings would split the lunch room renovation programme into migration zones.. i.e. they’re not particularly useful - it’s just a bunch of people saying “ok” to whatever information they’re presented

 

[fgwrich]

Why are the B90/92/2K stock on their last legs? The B2K stock is only 25 years old, which is relatively young. There are quite a lot of older trains still running in the UK.

Apologies if this has already been answered earlier in the thread.

The way the train feels rough and messy ride wise compared to the B07 stock is night and day. The older trains literally feels like it's shaking especially around the Lewisham branch

But is the older stock either used as heavily or as intensively, or built to lighter standards for light rail use? The are certainly feeling tired now, and the new CAF fleet can’t enter service soon enough.

 

[Russel]

But is the older stock either used as heavily or as intensively, or built to lighter standards for light rail use? The are certainly feeling tired now, and the new CAF fleet can’t enter service soon enough.

Exactly this, they've done 20+ years of intensive stop/start work with heavy acceleration and breaking.

The original Manchester Metrolink fleet only did around 20 years before being replaced.

 

[Thirteen]

Light Rail stock generally have a shorter shelf life compared to their Tube or Train counterparts so the 30+ years for the B90/92/2K stock is impressive.