Diverting the ECML around Welwyn's bottleneck

[AlexSJW]

Interesting. Say, express trains going north going via Welwyn and those south on the WAML. I wonder what the improvement to journey times would be.

''In this article we will hypothesise Elizabeth line services on to the ECML via the West Anglia Main Line (WAML). Elizabeth line services on the ECML could replace some existing services to Kings Cross thereby taking pressure off the two track section between Knebworth and Welwyn Garden City. The terminology employed for this is capacity release. The result in this case is an increase in the overall capacity of the ECML, with some services via Welwyn and some Elizabeth line services.''

''The Integrated Rail Plan published in November 2021 emphasises the need to upgrade the ECML and remove bottlenecks. The document is available here : Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands (pdf format, opens in new window or tab). The document can be searched for east coast, with pertinent results on pages 14, 76, 84, 113 and 114. On page 114 "The detailed scope for further upgrade of the East Coast Main Line between London and Leeds and the North East, including elements identified by the NPR programme, will be confirmed following a further study."''

RailEnable: Bypassing the Welwyn bottleneck : Elizabeth line to the ECML

Network Rail say of in-cab signalling:
''We expect the first trains to operate on the East Coast Main Line using this digital signalling technology by the end of 2025. We plan to complete all improvements by 2030.''

Expected Journey Time Improvements from London to York and Darlington by up to 15 minutes, and to Leeds by approximately 20 minutes. Edinburgh could be reduced by around 25 minutes. Sounds good.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Interesting. Say, express trains going north going via Welwyn and those south on the WAML. I wonder what the improvement to journey times would be.

RailEnable: Bypassing the Welwyn bottleneck : Elizabeth line to the ECML

Network Rail say of in-cab signalling:
''We expect the first trains to operate on the East Coast Main Line using this digital signalling technology by the end of 2025. We plan to complete all improvements by 2030.''

Expected Journey Time Improvements from London to York and Darlington by up to 15 minutes, and to Leeds by approximately 20 minutes. Edinburgh could be reduced by around 25 minutes. Sounds good.

That "report" reads like university coursework.

It has no idea what its scope and aims are and just sort of rambles incoherently from one idea to the next.

And is quite frankly bizarre

i quote below

Edinburgh to Elizabeth line
An Elizabeth line service from Edinburgh could be a candidate for consideration. Potentially the service might use a connection between Heathrow and Woking, resulting in a service Edinburgh - Elizabeth line - Heathrow - Portsmouth or Edinburgh - Elizabeth line - Heathrow - Southampton."

 

[Transilien]

Edinburgh to Elizabeth line
An Elizabeth line service from Edinburgh could be a candidate for consideration. Potentially the service might use a connection between Heathrow and Woking, resulting in a service Edinburgh - Elizabeth line - Heathrow - Portsmouth or Edinburgh - Elizabeth line - Heathrow - Southampton."

How about we have a service from Wick to Vladivostok using the Elizabeth Line while we’re at it?

 

[NCT]

How about we have a service from Wick to Vladivostok using the Elizabeth Line while we’re at it?

Why limit ourselves? Start in Reykjavik then undersea via Faroe Islands, then from Vladivostok undersea to Sapporo and swing round to Fukuoka.

 

[MatthewHutton]

Interesting. Say, express trains going north going via Welwyn and those south on the WAML. I wonder what the improvement to journey times would be.

RailEnable: Bypassing the Welwyn bottleneck : Elizabeth line to the ECML

Network Rail say of in-cab signalling:
''We expect the first trains to operate on the East Coast Main Line using this digital signalling technology by the end of 2025. We plan to complete all improvements by 2030.''

Expected Journey Time Improvements from London to York and Darlington by up to 15 minutes, and to Leeds by approximately 20 minutes. Edinburgh could be reduced by around 25 minutes. Sounds good.

Looking at the map bypassing Welwyn has always looked pretty tough.

You have to go a long way around I think.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Looking at the map bypassing Welwyn has always looked pretty tough.

You have to go a long way around I think.

If it was easy it would have been done by now

 

[Jan Mayen]

How about we have a service from Wick to Vladivostok using the Elizabeth Line while we’re at it?

Yes, but will it be allowed to stop at Altnabreac?

 

[The exile]

If it was easy it would have been done by now

It was - the GNR did it over 100 years ago - just for different types and speeds of traffic.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Where would these additional trains go once they join the Elizabeth line? Does the Elizabeth line have the spare capacity? Surely the extra capacity will be used to run more local trains which just puts you back into square one? It seems like this plan is just kicking the 'sort out Welwyn' can down the road. Even if the original HS2 plan was executed surely Welwyn will need sorting somehow as fast IC services will still be on the ECML serving places not served by HS2? I doubt passengers in Peterborough would want to lose their non-stop services to London. Might as well 4 track or bypass it anyway. That said, as mentioned in the NR document in the blog sorting out Welwyn just moves the bottleneck to Hitchin

 

[NCT]

Yes, but will it be allowed to stop at Altnabreac?

Altnabreac will be completely rebuilt with 250m platforms in both directions capable of running 12tph.

 

[whoosh]

Will you be able to get from Farringdon to St Neots in the 61 minutes it currently takes? Close to it?
I don't think you could.

Farringdon to Stevenage in 32 minutes?
Because if you can't, people arent going to bother with these 'Elizabeth Line trains' and wait for what's left of the existing trains instead - which will make them even more crowded.

Maybe a High Speed Line, or some new line by-passing Welwyn viaduct is needed, but an Elizabeth Line extension isn't the answer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2026 ==

Altnabreac will be completely rebuilt with 250m platforms in both directions capable of running 12tph.

BUT....
Who will own them...?!

 

[Helvellyn]

i quote below
Edinburgh to Elizabeth line
An Elizabeth line service from Edinburgh could be a candidate for consideration. Potentially the service might use a connection between Heathrow and Woking, resulting in a service Edinburgh - Elizabeth line - Heathrow - Portsmouth or Edinburgh - Elizabeth line - Heathrow - Southampton."

First Group are now busy writing up their Open Access application.

 

[NCT]

BUT....
Who will own them...?!

UN.

 

[Peter0124]

Can you even join the Elizabeth line from the ECML?

 

[FGWHST43009]

Can you even join the Elizabeth line from the ECML?

The proposal is to add new connections from the ECML to the WAML then to the Elizabeth line I believe

 

[Magdalia]

Interesting.

That's not a word I would use to describe this!

And is quite frankly bizarre

Whereas this seems appropriate.

It has no idea what its scope and aims are and just sort of rambles incoherently from one idea to the next.

It is a remarkably incoherent document, but I think the idea is to strike east from the ECML north of Woolmer Green, join the WAML near Broxbourne, do the Lea Valley 4 tracks proposed in Crossrail 2, then join the Elizabeth line at Stratford.

The original version is 5 years old, since when a lot has changed, most notably EWR at Tempsford.

The proposal seems to spend tens of billions on new infrastructure without adding any significant new capacity. All it does is try to move trains from one congested route to another, and adding to journey time.

 

[JonathanH]

The proposal is to add new connections from the ECML to the WAML then to the Elizabeth line I believe

The Elizabeth Line can't be easily joined to the Lea Valley Line at Stratford, so it falls down at that hurdle (as well as others).

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting. Say, express trains going north going via Welwyn and those south on the WAML. I wonder what the improvement to journey times would be.

It would make journey times worse. Lots worse.

The Elizabeth Line can't be easily joined to the Lea Valley Line at Stratford, so it falls down at that hurdle (as well as others).

It can’t be joined at all, without comprehensively breaking either the GEML timetsble or the laws of physics, or both.

 

[JonathanH]

It can’t be joined at all, without comprehensively breaking either the GEML timetsble or the laws of physics, or both.

Just move platforms 9, 10 and 10a 'upstairs' at Stratford (and Maryland), and the pedestrian footbridge further upstairs?

 

[Bald Rick]

Just move platforms 9, 10 and 10a 'upstairs' at Stratford (and Maryland), and the pedestrian footbridge further upstairs?

That would certainly break the timetable to build it!

 

[Failed Unit]

Wasn’t a bypass already planned and cancelled? We shall call it HS2 and it will remove enough long distance trains we would have enough capacity for what is left.

It would also connect with the Elizabeth line at Old Oak Common.

 

[JonathanH]

Wasn’t a bypass already planned and cancelled? We shall call it HS2 and it will remove enough long distance trains we would have enough capacity for what is left.

It would also connect with the Elizabeth line at Old Oak Common.

People struggle with the concept of a bypass not being built near the formation of the thing being bypassed.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Wasn’t a bypass already planned and cancelled? We shall call it HS2 and it will remove enough long distance trains we would have enough capacity for what is left.

It would also connect with the Elizabeth line at Old Oak Common.

Whether or not HS2 gets built in full surely Welwyn needs 4-tracking or a short bypass built for fast trains anyway? I don't think the Elizabeth line plan is the solution, there probably isn't the capacity in the central corridor, and there are timetable issues others have mentioned. HS2 won't eliminate the need for fast IC services on the ECML. No need for going non-stop from London to York but definitely to serve places in between. I doubt Peterborough customers would want to lose their non-stop service to London

 

[JonathanH]

HS2 won't eliminate the need for fast IC services on the ECML. No need for going non-stop from London to York but definitely to serve places in between. I doubt Peterborough customers would want to lose their non-stop service to London

Yes, but how many paths are needed across Welwyn viaduct? If two paths were given up because there no longer needs to be fast trains to York, that gives two semi-fast paths instead, without needing to remove fast trains to Peterborough.

 

[Magdalia]

Wasn’t a bypass already planned and cancelled? We shall call it HS2 and it will remove enough long distance trains we would have enough capacity for what is left.

This is right, HS2 with an eastern leg would have freed up a lot of capacity at the south end of the ECML.

Although numbers 1 and 2 station pairs from Kings Cross in the origin destination matrix are Cambridge and Peterborough, 3 to 6 are Edinburgh, Leeds, York and Newcastle. Most of the Edinburgh, Leeds, York and Newcastle traffic would have gone to HS2, leaving more ECML capacity for Cambridge and Peterborough.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whether or not HS2 gets built in full surely Welwyn needs 4-tracking or a short bypass built for fast trains anyway?

My usual response to this is to ask how many additional paths would such a project enable, with any answer above “0” requiring the showing of working.

 

[Failed Unit]

This is right, HS2 with an eastern leg would have freed up a lot of capacity at the south end of the ECML.

Although numbers 1 and 2 station pairs from Kings Cross in the origin destination matrix are Cambridge and Peterborough, 3 to 6 are Edinburgh, Leeds, York and Newcastle. Most of the Edinburgh, Leeds, York and Newcastle traffic would have gone to HS2, leaving more ECML capacity for Cambridge and Peterborough.

That is the thing as you say, if we get rid of really long distance traffic you could probably have this kind of pattern in the high peak across the viaduct.

1. LNER (non stop Peterborough)
2. Great Northern - Kings Lynn
3 &4 Great Northern Welwyn Garden City and Welwyn North
5. Thameslink - Peterborough
6. LNER (non stop Peterborough)
7. Great Northern Peterborough
8 & 9 Great Northern Welwyn Garden City and Welwyn North
10 Thameslink - Cambridge.

Repeat for following half hour

(clearly these can be in different order) - But do we really need any more then this in the peak?

There are currently 6x IC services between 1700 and 1800. One of these being Grand Central which would probably stay on the ECML.

 

[Bald Rick]

That is the thing as you say, if we get rid of really long distance traffic you could probably have this kind of pattern in the high peak across the viaduct.

1. LNER (non stop Peterborough)
2. Great Northern - Kings Lynn
3 &4 Great Northern Welwyn Garden City and Welwyn North
5. Thameslink - Peterborough
6. LNER (non stop Peterborough)
7. Great Northern Peterborough
8 & 9 Great Northern Welwyn Garden City and Welwyn North
10 Thameslink - Cambridge.

Repeat for following half hour

(clearly these can be in different order) - But do we really need any more then this in the peak?

There are currently 6x IC services between 1700 and 1800. One of these being Grand Central which would probably stay on the ECML.

The limit is 18 an hour.

 

[Farang]

Early on the report says “As Britain responds to climate change, there is always the possibility that railways will move centre stage.” Towards the end it talks about running train services between Heathrow and Stansted to enable Stansted expansion.

 

[Failed Unit]

The limit is 18 an hour.

Just doing a count of current,
6 Long Distance,
4 Thameslink,
4 Great Northern (that stop at Welwyn North)
4 Great Notherrn (that don’t Kings Lynn and Peterborough)

So realistically I would expect 2x Long Distances to go, but on the current loadings would we actually replace them with other services. Hitchin - Cambridge seems to also be full with 6 trains. Perhaps staying at 16 (maximum length) trains would be enough if it runs reliably. The Kings Lynn service might be able to run fast to Cambridge in the peak but as other threads highlight the Letchworth stopping service takes up capacity that prevents that happening.