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Distance from depot
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SkinnyDave
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It varies from 30 mins to an hour but I think they are changing to maximum of 45 mins due to fatigue recommendations
anthony263
Established Member
With the latest fgw trainie drivers vacancies they were looking for aplicants who could get to the depots in under an hour or who were prepared to relocate closer to the depot.
The TOCs/FOCs, who else?
It is an RSSB recommendation and when the RSSB recommend anything it would be suicide for the TOC/FOC not to comply
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It isn't distance but it is time from depot - over the next couple of years the HIDDEN 18 rules are to replaced with or updated with a fatigue level index that will take into account your door to door time instead of booking on/booking off times with other factors also implimented. This one of the main reasons there have been so many vacancies available with the big TOC's. If you live more than 45 minutes from your allocated depot in general the company will expect you to relocate and will most likely write something into your contract ensuring you do!
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Geargrinder
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Its definitely in the current HSE fatigue index calculators. I guess your commuting time is just over an hour Bletchley to Victoria ?
My understanding is any EU changes will affect new recruits more as I believe familiarity with the job is also included. Employers will fatigue score their employees, and wanting them to be as productive as possible, will reduce commuting times rather than shift length or increase breaks etc.
I'm sure someone more in the know than me can give a more informed reply
If you was a new entrant now there would be. Commuting will become a part of the fatigue index reforms. But if you already in the job there is no need to worry just yet. Management will need to do a risk assessment on all their drivers over the coming months/years to ascertain their individual fatigue indices.
daddy_badger
Member
It's a shame there isn't a depot on top of a mountain, gee how id love to relocate there. It's different per toc some say 30 some say 45 and sme say 60 minutes. I'm not worried is rather live on the doorstep and cycle in.
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It's a shame there isn't a depot on top of a mountain, gee how id love to relocate there. It's different per toc some say 30 some say 45 and sme say 60 minutes. I'm not worried id rather live on the doorstep and cycle in.
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It's a shame there isn't a depot on top of a mountain, gee how id love to relocate there. It's different per toc some say 30 some say 45 and sme say 60 minutes. I'm not worried id rather live on the doorstep and cycle in.
Simple, it isn't going to happen. If it was, we would know about it by now. The fatigue index (a calculation process, for working out if shifts are too tiring, which in itself is highly suspect, as all it convcerns itself with is turn length), isn't mandatory. It would certainly be challenged if an attempt was made to make it so, and it wouldn't be too difficult to discredit it.
Don't you thing that the unions would be kicking off by now, if there were to be attempts to force the domestic relocation of staff?
For new entrants Lucas, existing drivers will not be expected to relocate unless they are outside the roster maximums. I can see a link structure being applied myself, now that will put the cat amongst the pigeons.
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The London depots have a shorter turn length on average than the rest of the depots within the company
I can assure you that that isn't the case! And not only are many London terminal diagrams longer than outer depots but the work is almost always far more intensive than an outer diagram making fatigue related risks far far higher.
A kings cross driver can spend 9hours 45 mins doing exclusively 313 work (all station stoppers to moorgate etc) whilst a kings Lynn driver may spend 8 hours doing Lynn to Cambs, Cambs to London stopper, break and then London to Lynn or a peterbourgh man may have a fast limited stops to London, cruiser to Cambridge, cruiser to London then a semi fast back to peterbourgh.
Generally, as London terminal depots arnt associated with a traction depot or yard like many outer depots are, a London terminal driver will get an extra return trip diagrammed whilst an outer driver will start or finish by walking to or from the yard having got one out, put one away or prepped one.
I don't think this fatigue thing will have that much effect, recent diagram alterations at my company show that they are deliberately increasing diagram length and cramming more and more work in to try and reduce driver numbers which is going completely against this fatigue index. Lets face it, they are never going to go the other way once they have started tightening diagrams up like that.
OK, what is the maximum diagram lenth on Southern? Chiltern drivers at Marylebone have much shorter diagrams than Brum or Aylesbury, what is the maximum diagram lenth at South Eastern? I am talking rostered here on the base roster. Maybe the company you are referring to is not taking up the recommendations of the RSSB? I can assure you that the fatigue indexthing will certainly affect diagramming for the companies that are adopting it, why else do you think there is a huge recruitment drive?
Southern diagrams are a maximum of 9 1/2 hours. As a trainee I've been dumped all over the shop to get a DI and I somewhat agree that on southern atleast the load is on the London depots. It's all driving with not much pass and lay over times.
Off topic but something that needs to be looked at is the rostering and how that effects fatigue. coming from the underground if you followed the roster you would normally work earlies middles lates or vice versa there were no extreme changes yeah they could use the 12 hour rule but it was seldom implemented on a working roster. Again with southern it's so out of sorts you can understand why drivers are fatigued and having incidents. An example being I've recently done a week of nights with a Wednesday Thursday rest finishing up at 0509 Sunday morning and having to be in at 0514 Monday morning. That's ridiculous 12hurs or not
Off topic but something that needs to be looked at is the rostering and how that effects fatigue. coming from the underground if you followed the roster you would normally work earlies middles lates or vice versa there were no extreme changes yeah they could use the 12 hour rule but it was seldom implemented on a working roster. Again with southern it's so out of sorts you can understand why drivers are fatigued and having incidents. An example being I've recently done a week of nights with a Wednesday Thursday rest finishing up at 0509 Sunday morning and having to be in at 0514 Monday morning. That's ridiculous 12hurs or not
As far as I remember when I was a driver for southern Selhurst lower links had by far the most intense work followed by London bridge, Victoria and Brighton.
But as a rule Victoria and London bridge (bing the depots which tend to see people coming in from furthest away) were certainly more intense than places like Norwood, caterham, Epsom, bridges, Horsham, Bognor, Eastbourne. As I said before, it makes a difference that neither vic or London bridge have a yard or sidings (well apart from pugs hole and the pier but that doesn't really count) as it means they will be able to get an extra return trip out of you whilst other depots will start or finish with yard work which is certainly less intense.
That's the crux of it. Not everywhere will be. The Index is just a statistical tool, attempting to measure something that cannot be measured. It is a calculation, and does not include every possible variable. I suspect that the obligation, will be for companies to demonstrate that they are taking suitable precautions re fatigue. As for recruitment, I've not heard anything about this being a reason. Just the usual service expansions, retirements and replacements for those poached for better things!
BulldogBurt
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Don't know if this is relevant or not to the discussion on workload etc but I had a DM interview on thurs with FTPE and was told that I MUST live within 45 mins of my nominated depot and would be expected to remain so for the duration of my employment with them. So it seems that FTPE at least certainly are taking the directives seriously.
Or they are just trying to filter the numbers down.
I'll give you an example of why this is a meaningless exercise.
Driver "A" lives 15 - 20 miles away from his depot. He drives to work, and spends 45 mins negotiating rush hour or school run traffic.
Driver "B" lives 60 - 70 miles away from his depot. His commute is a 30 minute walk to his station (in line with TOC encouragement towards an active and healthy lifestyle), followed by a 50 - 60 minute train journey, which he spends reading or listening to music.
Who arrives at work in the better frame of mind?
FCC have just given out very poorly written and thought out booklets about managing fatigue as a driver. Absolute drivel in them and completely contradictory-talks about spending no more than 5 hours in the chair etc whilst most diagrams have over 4 hours on them so does the booklet mean we can refuse to drive the rest of a journey after 4 hours?!
I fear this is all they will do to manage fatigue though. If we muck up as we are tired they can tell us that its not their fault as they gave us a booklet to read!
Thanks for all the replies.
If I was based at Waterloo the tfl journey planner says I am 44 minutes
away by train,but aa route planner says 1 hour 20 minutes drive and the distance being 18 miles.
As I would only drive there in the small hours of the morning it would take a lot less time than this,so what measurement would a TOC use?
If I was based at Waterloo the tfl journey planner says I am 44 minutes
away by train,but aa route planner says 1 hour 20 minutes drive and the distance being 18 miles.
As I would only drive there in the small hours of the morning it would take a lot less time than this,so what measurement would a TOC use?
To be honest, at the moment I think their main concern is weather you will be able to get to work on time and in a fit state. If your 44min train journey involves 6 different trains then they may not be too keen as its risky for one of them making you late for work leading to your first working being delayed or cancelled. As was said a few posts above, if you have a 1.5 hour direct train journey with a high frequency service and can get on the train one end and off again at work then they would be happier with that as its likely to mean you are more reliable and more alert etc.
I have said this before on another thread and will say it again, and sorry to seem so blunt, but you can ask all this on forums as much as you like but if I were you I would spend my time instead filling out the application forms and preparing for interviews etc. If you don't apply you will never know for sure if you stand a chance or if your location is a problem. Fill in the forms, if selected take the tests and interviews and see what happens. If they say your location is a problem then so be it. You havnt lost anything. And that is really the worst that can happen! We can't give you the exact answers you are fishing for here...there is only one way you will ever get those answers and that is to stop panicking and apply!
(And good luck...again sorry to seem blunt!)
I have applied and been accepted pending a medical but I have to relocate.
Ok, I see. What guidance have they given you about where to relocate to? If they haven't been specific and you have been offered the job then I wouldn't worry too much. Just find somewhere where you are happy living and feel you personally can manage to get to and from work without constantly panicking about being late, tiring yourself out etc.
The exact timings people are throwing around her aren't cut offs. They won't sack you for living too far away and there isn't much they would or could do if you decided to move to the other side of the country a few years into your employment, as long as you keep turning up for work on time and don't keep having incidents related to fatigue.
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