Disrespectful?

[RJ]

So I travelled again recently. The price on the ticket I had was shown as £0.00 as it was actually an excess to replace a ticket that had been withdrawn by an East Midlands Trains RPO some miles away. This in itself caused untold problems as I was essentially travelling across the country with an excess ticket endorsed with "Valid only with ticket [original ticket number]" but of course that had been withdrawn. This is why railway staff should be following the book to the letter when carrying out revenue protection procedures, but that's going on a hiding to nowhere.

At Crewe, I boarded a train towards Shrewsbury and the guard came along. After I had to go through the full explanation of why I didn't have the original ticket, he was adamant the only permitted route is the most direct one and shook his head dismissively when I mentioned the National Routeing Guide. He was of the opinion that I was off route. Fine, not unanticipated, I've gotten used to this by now. He said that he didn't want to see me travelling on his train again with a ticket that was not by the most direct route but indicated that he would pass the ticket, to which I simply said "thank you." I never, ever argue when a member of staff agrees to pass a ticket, regardless of the reason for why they are doing so or who is right/wrong in principle. I will always do my utmost to avoid conflict.

What happened next took me by surprise. He was holding my ticket and began looking at me for an inordinate period of time. I always look directly at people when conversing and for the first few seconds he was looking at me, I was trying not to crack a smile. As the seconds ticked by I realised he was being serious and the more I thought about it, the more I was wondering why the man was looking at me like that.

The man was staring at me for a good 20 seconds and I was looking squarely back at him. Eventually, he held up the ticket and said "I'll stamp it, but I don't want to see you on this line again" I said "thank you, I appreciate it" in as sincere a manner as possible and held my hand up to take the ticket. As I did so, he forcibly shoved the ticket into my hand which I felt was completely unnecessary, then started the staring thing again. This lasted for a good 25-30 seconds until he decided to walk away.

The look on his face was as if he was saying "I've dealt with your sort before and if you say a word, I'll sort you out/put you off the train/get the police." The way I see it, I don't like to give these people anything negative to say about me so I let it go without saying anything. In London where I'm from, people simply don't do that sort of thing unless they're specifically trying to antagonise the other person. Maybe culture is different on the Marches and it means something else.

What do people think of this? Obviously it's not illegal to look at someone for protracted periods of time or display a bad attitude when passing a ticket, but I'd like to think that there are more graceful ways a member of staff can interact with a passenger. Would anyone have said anything to him if in my shoes?

 

[bnm]

You didn't break the stare either? Saying you were looking squarely back at him. A bit of a battle of wills going on then it would seem. So I can't see how you'd need to ask whether this guard was being disrespectful. He could lay the same, albeit absurd, claim at your door.

You ask what people think about this situation. I say you are being either somewhat paranoid, or are just highlighting another example of an interaction with on-train staff that hasn't met your somewhat aloof standards.

Just be thankful you are dealing with rail staff. If you were to try some of the interactions you've filled this forum with (where you are never wrong of course) on the general populace, you may find being a smart alec gets you thumped.

The routeing, loopholes and esoteric ticket stuff you talk about is interesting. The constant negativity about on-train staff is tedious. And it is constant - the negatives far outweigh the positives in your posting history.

The man looked at you for a bit longer than you felt comfortable. An alternative to the battle of wills staring was that he fancied you. Who knows? But also, so what? Get over it, and move on to the next confrontation. Rather like trains I'm sure another one will be along soon and you can tell us all about it. :roll:

Oh, and I see no dispute or prosecution. Is this the right board for such a topic?

 

[MikeWh]

Oh, and I see no dispute or prosecution. Is this the right board for such a topic?

Yes it is. Are you really suggesting that being told never to be seen again without a direct ticket is not a dispute?

 

[michael769]

Yes it is. Are you really suggesting that being told never to be seen again without a direct ticket is not a dispute?

Indeed and entirely unacceptable. I'd go as far as to describe the behavior as aggressive and confrontational

I wonder if this individual identified RJ from the guidance that we know has been issued and was a bit "nose out of joint", at being forbidden to do anything, and the cynic in me wonders if it was a deliberate attempt to provoke RJ.

Whatever the reason for it it certainly falls short of the minimum acceptable standard of behavior that might be expected from someone in a customer facing role.

 

[richw]

Is it possible due to your well reknown issues in the past, they have images in their staff room/ office, and he was determining it was you, and as he decided it was you he was not going to issue any further penalties.

 

[156441]

I sometimes look at people a little longer than usual to read body language. The amount of people I have caught out because of a shifty look or fidgety movements as they think they've got away with something is unreal!

RJ I've got to say I love your postings I can't wait to meet you on one of my trains with one of your dodgy tickets! Perhaps you could wear some sort of identifying mark so we can recognise you!!

In fact as your ticket will probably be so obscure and the rattle of your national travel tokens so loud I might just chance everyone I meet under these circs with the greeting 'are you RJ, master rail fare fiddler and conductor hater!!'

Stay safe dude!

 

[ian959]

RJ have you ever considered the fact that your notoriety amongst rail staff, who might well have had a bollocking from supervisors over errors they committed, might be building up resentment amongst said staff? It is one thing to be right and quite another thing to be constantly rubbing their noses in it so to speak.

We all make mistakes, but very few people like having their noses rubbed in it. For some reason I get the impression that you enjoy rubbing peoples noses in it and so you might well find that the alleged disrespectful attitude towards you may only continue to increase?

I don't necessarily condone the alleged conduct but after reading your numerous posts I can certainly understand why it may arise.

 

[Ferret]

I was interested in the particulars of the zerofare ticket. If I ever withdraw a ticket to submit a TIR, I hit excess in Avantix, then where it asks you to enter the old ticket number, I type 'T.I.R' so that it prints on the zerofare 'valid only with T.I.R'. This then leaves the next inspector in no doubt as to what's happened, and that they need not do anything....

 

[district]

Perhaps the conductor in this case was trying to provoke RJ into reacting in a way that would give the conductor an excuse to call the BTP or ask him to leave the train.

 

[GNER 373]

I was interested in the particulars of the zerofare ticket. If I ever withdraw a ticket to submit a TIR, I hit excess in Avantix, then where it asks you to enter the old ticket number, I type 'T.I.R' so that it prints on the zerofare 'valid only with T.I.R'. This then leaves the next inspector in no doubt as to what's happened, and that they need not do anything....

This is exactly what I do when issuing a zero fare. Either the guard who retained the original ticket forgot/didn't know to do this or the guard knew exactly what he/she was doing and tried to cause RJ more 'conflict' further down the line. Maybe notoriety has got the better of RJ in this instance.

 

[Greenback]

The essential problem, once again, is staff deciding to make up rules rather than admit they do not know something or check up on it (if they can).

 

[tony6499]

Shouldn't you have the tear off slip at the bottom of the TIR to say your ticket has been withdrawn for investigation ?

 

[Darandio]

RJ have you ever considered the fact that your notoriety amongst rail staff, who might well have had a bollocking from supervisors over errors they committed, might be building up resentment amongst said staff? It is one thing to be right and quite another thing to be constantly rubbing their noses in it so to speak.

We all make mistakes, but very few people like having their noses rubbed in it. For some reason I get the impression that you enjoy rubbing peoples noses in it and so you might well find that the alleged disrespectful attitude towards you may only continue to increase?

I don't necessarily condone the alleged conduct but after reading your numerous posts I can certainly understand why it may arise.

By generally having a valid ticket and knowing how to use certain combinations, that is "rubbing their noses" in it?

As Greenback has just said, it's once again a case of staff making the rules up as they see fit, which has often been the case in RJ's posts. That is hardly his fault is it?

To read that a guard would say ""I'll stamp it, but I don't want to see you on this line again" is nothing short of disgraceful. That is the real issue here, not what RJ has done or is doing.

 

[GNER 373]

Shouldn't you have the tear off slip at the bottom of the TIR to say your ticket has been withdrawn for investigation ?

A TIR report is something you write up after the investigation takes place. There is no slip to tear off. You might be getting mixed up with a UPFN or Penalty Fare Notice?

 

[Mojo]

A TIR report is something you write up after the investigation takes place. There is no slip to tear off. You might be getting mixed up with a UPFN or Penalty Fare Notice?

There is a difference between most companies. Some companies have pads for their Inspectors to complete at the scene when they are going to refer the matter for prosecution whereas others write details down in a pocket notebook.

For example, Irregularity statements (the equivalent of a TIR at my company) are a sheet of A4 double sided paper with boxes for the staff member to complete. You are right though that no copy is available for the customer.

 

[maniacmartin]

I was under the impression that a receipt had to be given when a ticket was withdrawn?

 

[Greenback]

To read that a guard would say ""I'll stamp it, but I don't want to see you on this line again" is nothing short of disgraceful. That is the real issue here, not what RJ has done or is doing.

Indeed, the staff member should either accept the ticket, try and double check anything they have concerns with, or refuse to accept it and take matters further.

To do what RJ has reported has been done is pretty poor, and it happens far too often for my liking.

 

[GNER 373]

I was under the impression that a receipt had to be given when a ticket was withdrawn?

The zero fare ticket is akin to a receipt when a TIR report is to be done.

UPFN's and Penalty Fare notices usually have a copy you tear off and give to the person after its completed.

 

[CNash]

In fact as your ticket will probably be so obscure and the rattle of your national travel tokens so loud I might just chance everyone I meet under these circs with the greeting 'are you RJ, master rail fare fiddler and conductor hater!!'

"You are RJ and I claim my five pounds!"

 

[RPI]

But as ever, we only have one, biased, side of the story.

 

[Karl]

I will always do my utmost to avoid conflict.

Really?

 

[yorkie]

RJ have you ever considered the fact that your notoriety amongst rail staff, who might well have had a bollocking from supervisors over errors they committed, might be building up resentment amongst said staff? It is one thing to be right and quite another thing to be constantly rubbing their noses in it so to speak.

What has he done that is "constantly rubbing their noses in it"?

We all make mistakes,...

If you are not sure what the NRCoC says, or what the Routeing Guide says, is it a "mistake" to make something up and refuse to look anything up and make up rules on the spot?

Most people who make mistakes are willing to be corrected, and/or look at the relevant documentation.

I don't necessarily condone the alleged conduct but after reading your numerous posts I can certainly understand why it may arise.

Yes, because a small minority invent their own rules, and deny the Routeing Guide even exists.

I was under the impression that a receipt had to be given when a ticket was withdrawn?

Yes, but the correct procedures are not always carried out, and nothing much is done to ensure that they are.
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Really?

Go on then, what has RJ done to cause conflict?

 

[cuccir]

he was adamant the only permitted route is the most direct one and shook his head dismissively when I mentioned the National Routeing Guide

This. In other circumstances, I have wondered whether RJ's comments suggest someone who (perhaps unintentionally) appears smug/passive-aggressive. However this guard has either:

1. Lied to a passenger
2. Shown ignorance of one of the more basic aspects of ticket routing

 

[RJ]

Really?

I pay my fare. All I want is for inspectors to nip the ticket and move on. I don't call them back, ask them to look at my ticket more closely and implore them to start asking questions, if that's what you are suggesting.

I figured that logically, the best way to get them to move on is to tell them precisely why the ticket is valid in plain English terms, then with reference to the appropriate documents if they still aren't convinced.

In the event they still don't want to listen, I don't argue if they ask for my name and address.

There are staff who are too complacent with their own knowledge to feel that a passenger is worth listening to. Some people would sooner put others out to save face, than entertain the idea that a rule may exist that they haven't yet come across. In the introduction of the ticketing training course I was sent on, it was said that a very experienced railway man stated that only a fool thinks they know everything about tickets. It's a sentiment I agree with entirely.

I'm not sure what else I can do to be conflict averse, but I will draw the line at handing over a single penny extra when I have already paid the fare.
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The zero fare ticket is akin to a receipt when a TIR report is to be done.

UPFN's and Penalty Fare notices usually have a copy you tear off and give to the person after its completed.

There is a certain type of excess that should be issued in these circumstances as describe by Ferret - not just any old excess, especially not one which states it's only valid with a ticket that has been withdrawn.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I sometimes look at people a little longer than usual to read body language. The amount of people I have caught out because of a shifty look or fidgety movements as they think they've got away with something is unreal!

RJ I've got to say I love your postings I can't wait to meet you on one of my trains with one of your dodgy tickets! Perhaps you could wear some sort of identifying mark so we can recognise you!!

In fact as your ticket will probably be so obscure and the rattle of your national travel tokens so loud I might just chance everyone I meet under these circs with the greeting 'are you RJ, master rail fare fiddler and conductor hater!!'

Stay safe dude!

I'm afraid you may well be disappointed! Unless you're a Train Manager with EMT, it's not likely any ticket I use on your trains will elicit anything more than a perfunctory glance. I always buy prior to boarding unless there is publicity stating I can buy on board. The only times I've deliberately gone to a guard or RPI to buy a ticket was on the two occasions I was wanting a First Class All Line Rover and preferred to let someone benefit from the commission. Paid for with an AmEx card, no NTTs to be seen

I like a quiet life so will hold off from bearing any particularly distinctive marks for now
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You didn't break the stare either? Saying you were looking squarely back at him. A bit of a battle of wills going on then it would seem. So I can't see how you'd need to ask whether this guard was being disrespectful. He could lay the same, albeit absurd, claim at your door.

You ask what people think about this situation. I say you are being either somewhat paranoid, or are just highlighting another example of an interaction with on-train staff that hasn't met your somewhat aloof standards.

Just be thankful you are dealing with rail staff. If you were to try some of the interactions you've filled this forum with (where you are never wrong of course) on the general populace, you may find being a smart alec gets you thumped.

The routeing, loopholes and esoteric ticket stuff you talk about is interesting. The constant negativity about on-train staff is tedious. And it is constant - the negatives far outweigh the positives in your posting history.

The man looked at you for a bit longer than you felt comfortable. An alternative to the battle of wills staring was that he fancied you. Who knows? But also, so what? Get over it, and move on to the next confrontation. Rather like trains I'm sure another one will be along soon and you can tell us all about it. :roll:

Oh, and I see no dispute or prosecution. Is this the right board for such a topic?

No, I didn't break the stare. He was certain he was right. I was certain I was right and I didn't want to give him the impression that I was in the slightest bit intimidated, as that would suggest that I knew I was doing something wrong. I highly doubt it was because he fancied me.

I'm not sure your understanding of what a smart alec is tallies with the way I comport myself, but I do thank you for sharing your views of the matter .

 

[soil]

Judging from your video, my estimation is that you are in an 'at-risk' demographic from being scrutinised by figures of authority. Middle-aged man - not going to get any second glance. Urban youth - sorry but your card is marked, people will assume that you are a criminal, fare dodger and so on. (The guard calls you 'fella' rather than 'Sir'. No respect.)

And of course people don't like being told what to do by people obviously younger than them. I remember when I took someone to court when I was 16, the judge just asked my father, who was there with me, and ignored me, even though I'd done the research and so on.

 

[RJ]

RJ have you ever considered the fact that your notoriety amongst rail staff, who might well have had a bollocking from supervisors over errors they committed, might be building up resentment amongst said staff? It is one thing to be right and quite another thing to be constantly rubbing their noses in it so to speak.

We all make mistakes, but very few people like having their noses rubbed in it. For some reason I get the impression that you enjoy rubbing peoples noses in it and so you might well find that the alleged disrespectful attitude towards you may only continue to increase?

I don't necessarily condone the alleged conduct but after reading your numerous posts I can certainly understand why it may arise.

With Arriva Trains Wales, I seriously doubt it. I've only ever travelled on their trains a handle of times. Either with a First Class All Line Rover, a Priv ticket or a duty pass. Never had any previous dialogue with their staff.

With East Midlands Trains, you might have a point. The RPO who withdrew my ticket became intent on pinning something on me as soon as she realised who I was and accused me of various misdemeanors. Both of them became animated with excitement as soon as I provided my name. It was almost as if the RPO leading the questioning was desperate to be the first one to get something to stick. That said, it's not an attitude they all take - some of them show great admiration for what I do. Really does depend on the individual. You can't assume that all people are rational beings who will react identically to a given situation.

 

[bnm]

I'm not sure your understanding of what a smart alec is tallies with the way I comport myself, but I do thank you for sharing your views of the matter .

Being a smart alec: Using words like 'comport' would be a start. I had to look that one up.

 

[RJ]

Being a smart alec: Using words like 'comport' would be a start. I had to look that one up.

And "esoteric" is a word that people use in everyday conversation? Pull the other one!

 

[6Gman]

As someone who uses ATW a lot - Crewe/ Shrewsbury/ Chester / N Wales I find the conductors are generally very, very good so a little surprised.

Perhaps he was trying to spot body language and/or assessing whether he knew you from elsewhere?

 

[AlexS]

I'm not going to go into a huge amount of detail in order to protect myself, but as a railwayman who has had to deal with attendant issues (delay to the service and contact with the signaller, not a revenue issue for myself) caused by one of these situations RJ finds himself in, and therefore having been briefly present at the time, there was no faulting his conduct. Yes, he digs his heels in, but there was no goading the staff involved - the revenue protection bod in particular was quite capable of working themselves up, themselves!

I know bugger all about ticketing, however I am all too familiar with a shoot first take action later approach, without necessarily fully checking out matters, and therefore if TOCs are doing something about this training issue, it can only be a good thing.