Disputing a UNPAID FARE NOTICE

[Jclarke629]

Hey there
I am a 20 year old student who was travelling from kings cross to Edinburgh for the first time, on my journey I had booked the 12 o’clock train to Edinburgh departing from kings cross. I boarded the 11:30 service instead thinking that this would be okay (in Scotland the train tickets are flexi so you can board trains different to the time specifically purchased for). On board the train the conductor has issued me with an UNPAID FARR NOTICE and has resulted in a £60 fine which is incredibly unfeasible for me too pay. Hilariously the train was actually delayed mid journey and became late. I was simply unaware how strict and stringent the tickets were and was quite disappointed that the conductor would not just let me off, his reason for Issuing me the ticket was that “other passengers paid for their tickets” too which I responded “I paid my ticket also I just got the 30 minute earlier train...” too which he didn’t reply. This has led me to question is there a commission that he earns off issuing these? Thanks in advance for the help

 

[_toommm_]

The ticket you would have used is called an advance - in trade for carrying a heavy discount, you are tied to one train only, and face having to pay a new fare if you board the wrong train. Note, these tickets are still issued in Scotland.

Unfortunately there is no right to just be allowed off and onto your booked train, as you could be carried a fair distance on your current train until you can alight and board your booked service. Thus, I suspect any appeal would be unsuccessful.

If you did want to appeal, pay first, then appeal. Once it's paid, that's it in terms of monetary cost to you, but all the while you argue it when it hasn't been paid, the penalty cost can increase exponentially.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hey there
I am a 20 year old student who was travelling from kings cross to Edinburgh for the first time, on my journey I had booked the 12 o’clock train to Edinburgh departing from kings cross. I boarded the 11:30 service instead thinking that this would be okay (in Scotland the train tickets are flexi so you can board trains different to the time specifically purchased for). On board the train the conductor has issued me with an UNPAID FARR NOTICE and has resulted in a £60 fine which is incredibly unfeasible for me too pay. Hilariously the train was actually delayed mid journey and became late. I was simply unaware how strict and stringent the tickets were and was quite disappointed that the conductor would not just let me off, his reason for Issuing me the ticket was that “other passengers paid for their tickets” too which I responded “I paid my ticket also I just got the 30 minute earlier train...” too which he didn’t reply. This has led me to question is there a commission that he earns off issuing these? Thanks in advance for the help

It's not clear on which basis you think the Unpaid Fares Notice was incorrectly issued. From what you've said, I don't think there is anything about it that appears to have been done incorrectly. If you were travelling on an Advance ticket, you are only permitted to travel on the booked service. Advance tickets exist for plenty of longer journeys within Scotland too, so it is hardly unique to be tied to a specific service if you have bought a discounted ticket for a longer journey.

Were you not made aware of the terms applying to your ticket when you bought it? If you bought it at a ticket office, did they not point out that you were tied to the booked train only? If you bought it online, did it not say something like "Valid on the booked train only"? Did you really expect to have a flexible ticket from London to Edinburgh, a journey of 4 hours and 400 miles, for the amount you paid (probably £50 or less)?

I can understand that it may be a painful lesson, but unfortunately it is your responsibility to ensure you have a valid ticket when you get on a train. Getting "off" with a Notice of "just" £60 is very light compared to the consequences that could have occurred for a journey that long - they would have been perfectly entitled to charge you for the undiscounted Anytime Single, at £161.50, or worse still, to take your details and prosecute you under Railway Byelaw 18 (leading to a fine and costs adding up to substantially more than £160!).

I don't think Train Managers on LNER get any commission for issuing Unpaid Fares Notices, and it should be pointed out that they are, in effect, a form of invoice for services provided (travel on the 11:30) and not a fine of any kind. Even if the Train Manager does get commission, they still let you off very easily, as they could have "chinged" you for a lot more, and they were (on the face of it) entirely right to do so.

As I say, much though it's painful, and much though of course the Train Manager could have just let you off, you were in the wrong from what you have said, and thus I strongly advice you to pay what is requested, as the cost will only increase if you leave it. Scrimp and save!

 

[Jclarke629]

It's not clear on which basis you think the Unpaid Fares Notice was incorrectly issued. From what you've said, I don't think there is anything about it that appears to have been done incorrectly. If you were travelling on an Advance ticket, you are only permitted to travel on the booked service. Advance tickets exist for plenty of longer journeys within Scotland too, so it is hardly unique to be tied to a specific service if you have bought a discounted ticket for a longer journey.

Were you not made aware of the terms applying to your ticket when you bought it? If you bought it at a ticket office, did they not point out that you were tied to the booked train only? If you bought it online, did it not say something like "Valid on the booked train only"? Did you really expect to have a flexible ticket from London to Edinburgh, a journey of 4 hours and 400 miles, for the amount you paid (probably £50 or less)?

I can understand that it may be a painful lesson, but unfortunately it is your responsibility to ensure you have a valid ticket when you get on a train. Getting "off" with a Notice of "just" £60 is very light compared to the consequences that could have occurred for a journey that long - they would have been perfectly entitled to charge you for the undiscounted Anytime Single, at £161.50, or worse still, to take your details and prosecute you under Railway Byelaw 18 (leading to a fine and costs adding up to substantially more than £160!).

I don't think Train Managers on LNER get any commission for issuing Unpaid Fares Notices, and it should be pointed out that they are, in effect, a form of invoice for services provided (travel on the 11:30) and not a fine of any kind. Even if the Train Manager does get commission, they still let you off very easily, as they could have "chinged" you for a lot more, and they were (on the face of it) entirely right to do so.

As I say, much though it's painful, and much though of course the Train Manager could have just let you off, you were in the wrong from what you have said, and thus I strongly advice you to pay what is requested, as the cost will only increase if you leave it. Scrimp and save!

If I’m honest it’s just something I didn’t really think about, I’m not a frequent long distance (if you would call this journey long distance) train traveller and just assumed it wouldn’t be an issue, the train is not busy and I had purchased a ticket going to the same destination. I understand my mistake just don’t really understand the motivation behind charging me for the penalty, what good does it do anyone involved bar the train company, I guess I just feel slightly aggravated at the fine being the same as I paid for my round trip. My mistake I guess. Thanks for taking the time to help

 

[Darandio]

If I’m honest it’s just something I didn’t really think about, I’m not a frequent long distance (if you would call this journey long distance) train traveller and just assumed it wouldn’t be an issue, the train is not busy and I had purchased a ticket going to the same destination. I understand my mistake just don’t really understand the motivation behind charging me for the penalty, what good does it do anyone involved bar the train company, I guess I just feel slightly aggravated at the fine being the same as I paid for my round trip. My mistake I guess. Thanks for taking the time to help

The penalty is a deterrent. Advance prices can vary greatly between services so it is enforced strictly. If it wasn't then people could just buy the cheapest advance for any service then jump on a completely different train, making the same claim that they didn't realise it was an issue.

Advance tickets are not limited to England or long distances either.

 

[Jclarke629]

The penalty is a deterrent. Advance prices can vary greatly between services so it is enforced strictly. If it wasn't then people could just buy the cheapest advance for any service then jump on a completely different train, making the same claim that they didn't realise it was an issue.

Advance tickets are not limited to England or long distances either.

Very understandable, but I think common sense should be applied to some situations, simply a mistake not a calculated attempt to save myself money on a trip...

 

[ainsworth74]

I can understand why aggravating to learn a lesson in such a painful way but I'd have to agree with what said above. Only thing I can suggest is pay it but then write to customer services afterwards explaining the situation and making it clear that you'll not make a similar mistake again and see if they're willing to offer anything by way of a goodwill gesture (I wouldn't directly ask for anything just indicate how disappointing it was to be treated in this way for an honest mistake).

But the facts as presented so far it appears the UFN was issued correctly and is due to be paid I'm sorry to say.

 

[70014IronDuke]

If I’m honest it’s just something I didn’t really think about, I’m not a frequent long distance (if you would call this journey long distance) train traveller and just assumed it wouldn’t be an issue, the train is not busy and I had purchased a ticket going to the same destination. I understand my mistake just don’t really understand the motivation behind charging me for the penalty, what good does it do anyone involved bar the train company, I guess I just feel slightly aggravated at the fine being the same as I paid for my round trip. My mistake I guess. Thanks for taking the time to help

Think of it this way: The train company provides a service, and has to make money.
One problem train companies have is they have lots of people who travel at peak times, but at other times, have staff and trains standing or running around only partially filled.

So, the train companies try to manage demand. To lure a passenger away from (say) the 16.00 to Edinburgh (a train likely to be full) to the 12.00 (possibly less full), they offer cheaper tickets for the 12.00 departure (which, I think goes to Inverness, in fact.) This way, you get a cheaper ride, but the TOC stand a good change of getting a £ X in revenue as a full-paying passenger on the 16.00.

This is the first stage of the thinking. BUT, they also know that, because of (say) a sporting event in Edinburgh, it is possible that the last reasonable train to Edinburgh for that event is the 11.30. The TOC will offer a certain number of tickets cheap on this train too - but when the computer sees that these tickets are being snapped up rapidly, it will switch to the more expensive fares. The 12.00 may still not be attractive to so many people, so it may still be offering cheap tickets.

The train company cannot just let you jump on the earlier one if you've bought one for the 12.00, or it would mean the entire system is undermined and would be in chaos.

Of course, you may believe the full fares are too expensive - many of us in here agree - but it's no good arguing that with the train manager, he's just trying to do a (sometimes tough) job as well as he/she can. Argue that with the government on election day.

Airlines and hotels and B&Bs do the same: If you book a Mediterranean hotel room for October 1st and turn up on August 10th, do you expect them to let you stay on your earlier booking, even if they have room spare?

Try it if you like - but I suspect you'll be out of luck.

 

[Darandio]

Very understandable, but I think common sense should be applied to some situations, simply a mistake not a calculated attempt to save myself money on a trip...

But how would they know? Anyone can claim it was simply a mistake.

 

[70014IronDuke]

But how would they know? Anyone can claim it was simply a mistake.

Indeed - please hang around OP - or look around at the many past posts - we have revenue protection staff and train managers posting in here, and they have a myriad of of 'chancer' stories.

Oh, and in the TOC's favour, as others have pointed out - it's not as if they try to catch you out on this. I'm sure if you look at your booking, it says in very clear English and not in tiny letters at the bottom, but up front something like: This ticket is valid on the booked train only.

I think you best course of action - for your own peace of mind - is to pay up ASAP and put this down to experience. Fuming at the railway company will not help you in any way.

 

[island]

You have been dealt with leniently as the train manager was entitled to charge you £146.40, the cost of a ticket for immediate travel on the train you were on. You now need to pay the unpaid fare notice promptly to avoid further charges being incurred or the matter being reported for prosecution.

Note that payment of an unpaid fares notice is due within the indicated period regardless of any appeal you may be wishing to make. It will be refunded should your appeal be successful.

If your train arrived more than half an hour late you can apply for DelayRepay in the usual way.

 

[Jclarke629]

Indeed - please hang around OP - or look around at the many past posts - we have revenue protection staff and train managers posting in here, and they have a myriad of of 'chancer' stories.

Oh, and in the TOC's favour, as others have pointed out - it's not as if they try to catch you out on this. I'm sure if you look at your booking, it says in very clear English and not in tiny letters at the bottom, but up front something like: This ticket is valid on the booked train only.

I think you best course of action - for your own peace of mind - is to pay up ASAP and put this down to experience. Fuming at the railway company will not help you in any way.

In no way fuming, irritated to be issued with a £60 fine as I’m sure most people would be but understandable unfortunately for myself I was using the Trainline app and specific the “barcode” ticket option rather than the “ticket” option: the main difference being on the ticket option it does specify “certain time only” and on the barcode option it does not. Inexperienced traveller and I know for next time. Wish me luck with my attempt to get the fine lifted. Sounds like I might need it :/

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If I’m honest it’s just something I didn’t really think about, I’m not a frequent long distance (if you would call this journey long distance) train traveller and just assumed it wouldn’t be an issue, the train is not busy and I had purchased a ticket going to the same destination. I understand my mistake just don’t really understand the motivation behind charging me for the penalty, what good does it do anyone involved bar the train company, I guess I just feel slightly aggravated at the fine being the same as I paid for my round trip. My mistake I guess. Thanks for taking the time to help

I know exactly what you mean. Unfortunately the system of using Advance tickets to manage demand (or, more accurately, to maximise revenue) would be undermined if it weren't strictly enforced.

Of course, something like this wouldn't have happened if you were heading from Euston to Edinburgh, since they have manual barriers checks that are individual to each platform and train. They would have noticed you had a ticket fixed to a different train and would have told you either to wait, or alternatively to pay the difference to the flexible fare in advance. Unfortunately, the layout at King's Cross is not such as to permit that.

I'd pay it and take it 'on the chin' as a relatively cheap lesson in how ticketing works. By relatively cheap, of course I mean by comparison to what it could have costed you if you had had your details taken for prosecution instead, for example.

I note you still say it is a fine - I would like to point it isn't a fine, since it is (less than) the agreed contractual charge, aka the invoice, for doing what you did. Of course, if you think it is penalty-like that may be the case, but as the old adage round these parts goes, only a Court can impose a fine, and not any private entity.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Note, for future use, that if you miss a booked train for which you have an advanced ticket because of a late running connecting train - you should get the train manager on that train to endorse your ticket. This way your advanced ticket will be valid for a later service - assuming there is one.
Also, many posters in here advise against using The Train Line to obtain tickets, as the system charges you (or used to, at least) a booking fee which you can easily avoid by using the TOC site directly.

eg see this old thread
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-train-line-website.28759/

 

[najaB]

in Scotland the train tickets are flexi so you can board trains different to the time specifically purchased for

No, they are not. Advance tickets work exactly the same here as they do in England. Please don't try to play that card.

On board the train the conductor has issued me with an UNPAID FARR NOTICE and has resulted in a £60 fine which is incredibly unfeasible for me too pay.

It's not a fine, it's a fare as the name suggests.

I was simply unaware how strict and stringent the tickets were and was quite disappointed that the conductor would not just let me off, his reason for Issuing me the ticket was that “other passengers paid for their tickets” too which I responded “I paid my ticket also I just got the 30 minute earlier train...” too which he didn’t reply.

The fare for that service may well have been higher than what you paid if the Advance quota had sold out.

This has led me to question is there a commission that he earns off issuing these?

As far as I know, no.

 

[Jclarke629]

No, they are not. Advance tickets work exactly the same here as they do in England. Please don't try to play that card.

It's not a fine, it's a fare as the name suggests.

The fare for that service may well have been higher than what you paid if the Advance quota had sold out.
As far as I know, no.

“Don’t try and play that card”...I frequently travel via train in Scotland and have never had an issue... not trying to play any card... maybe I’m wrong ? But just because I’m wrong dosnt mean I’m trying to “play a card”...implying deception...jeeez

 

[najaB]

I frequently travel via train in Scotland and have never had an issue... not trying to play any card... maybe I’m wrong ? But just because I’m wrong dosnt mean I’m trying to “play a card”...implying deception...jeeez

Not deception, but rather playing the "It's so strange and different in England" card. Advances work exactly the same up here as they do down there.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Not deception, but rather playing the "it's so strange and different in England" card. Advances work exactly the same up here as they do down there.

I think what is perhaps more reasonable an explanation is simply that the OP hasn't previously used Advances and may therefore be unfamiliar with the way they work. If they have previously also mostly travelled within Scotland then it may be easy to come to the conclusion that all tickets within Scotland are flexible. There's no need to be such a devil's advocate!

 

[Jclarke629]

Well I’m actually From Northern Ireland and if you have been there you would know the train service is actually entirely different, so maybe I will play that card then

 

[Jclarke629]

I think what is perhaps more reasonable an explanation is simply that the OP hasn't previously used Advances and may therefore be unfamiliar with the way they work. If they have previously also mostly travelled within Scotland then it may be easy to come to the conclusion that all tickets within Scotland are flexible. There's no need to be such a devil's advocate!

Lol, thanks. Didn’t think my integrity would be getting called into question !

 

[Haywain]

I don't think Train Managers on LNER get any commission for issuing Unpaid Fares Notices

LNER Train Managers do not receive commission for the issue of Unpaid Fare Notices.

 

[najaB]

I think what is perhaps more reasonable an explanation is simply that the OP hasn't previously used Advances and may therefore be unfamiliar with the way they work. If they have previously also mostly travelled within Scotland then it may be easy to come to the conclusion that all tickets within Scotland are flexible. There's no need to be such a devil's advocate!

It's not being a devil's advocate (and I'm not even sure what that means in this context). It's about cutting through irrelevant (and incorrect) wiffle.

 

[Elwyn]

Well I’m actually From Northern Ireland and if you have been there you would know the train service is actually entirely different, so maybe I will play that card then

Northern Ireland has train specific tickets too. If you travel from Belfast to Dublin there are open fares and there are advanced fares. A flexible single to Dublin is £30 and can be used on any train. An advanced purchase ticket is £10.99 but has to be used on the train you selected when you made the booking.

 

[kristiang85]

In no way fuming, irritated to be issued with a £60 fine as I’m sure most people would be but understandable unfortunately for myself I was using the Trainline app and specific the “barcode” ticket option rather than the “ticket” option: the main difference being on the ticket option it does specify “certain time only” and on the barcode option it does not. Inexperienced traveller and I know for next time. Wish me luck with my attempt to get the fine lifted. Sounds like I might need it :/

I avoid the Trainline myself; in future go via the train operating company directly: there is no booking fee, and you will get a comprehensive email about the terms and conditions.

Sorry you've had to learn the advance fare rules the hard way, I think everyone here has made ticket purchasing errors when first using UK trains. I never got stung by that, but I remember the first time I got a long distance train in the UK when I was 17 doing uni interviews, I simply assumed that all fares were standard and thus I paid something like £130 for a walk up day return to Liverpool from London. I quickly found out about advances after that...

 

[James H]

On Iarnród Éireann, (at least some) advance tickets can be used on the train either side of the booked departure.

 

[sheff1]

Jclarke629 - how late was the train arriving at your destination ? Although, as others have said, the Unpaid Fare Notice has been raised correctly, if the train was delayed by more than 30 mins you will be able to claim at least part of the cost back via Delay Repay.

 

[JN114]

Jclarke629 - how late was the train arriving at your destination ? Although, as others have said, the Unpaid Fare Notice has been raised correctly, if the train was delayed by more than 30 mins you will be able to claim at least part of the cost back via Delay Repay.

UFN isn’t a ticket, thus I doubt it would be valid for submission for delay repay.

Regardless this is all a bit of a tangent at this point. The advice to the OP is to pay; and to read the terms of their travel documents more carefully next time.

 

[_toommm_]

Jclarke629 - how late was the train arriving at your destination ? Although, as others have said, the Unpaid Fare Notice has been raised correctly, if the train was delayed by more than 30 mins you will be able to claim at least part of the cost back via Delay Repay.

I doubt they would as their ticket wasn't for the train that they travelled on so wouldn't be valid for a delay repay claim for that particular train.

 

[jumble]

LNER Train Managers do not receive commission for the issue of Unpaid Fare Notices.

It occurs to me that TOCs may however use mystery shoppers to see what the train managers actually do when presented with an invalid ticket.
One can never assume that someone should be risking their job by being lenient

 

[nuts & bolts]

Very understandable, but I think common sense should be applied to some situations, simply a mistake not a calculated attempt to save myself money on a trip...

The Train Manager by issueing a UFN gives you the opportunity to appeal at the sametime as paying the outstanding fare (not fine), the train manager is carrying out his duties he has not dealt you in an unfair way. You may well have been caught further along the line of route by Revenue Protection who may report the train manager!

An Advanced Fare has restrictions!