Dispute with Northern RPI

[woodyalessandr]

For the last 3 weeks I have been staying with a friend in Burnage- therefore I have been buying Burnage tickets.
However yestedray morning I popped home for something and got on the train at East Didsbury, I got my pass as usual and genuinely made the mistake of not getting an extra ticket from Didsbury to Burnage, It was early in the morning and I had been in a rush not to be late for work, I have been used to getting the Burnage ticket for the last few weeks and in my haste and stupidity just simply didn’t think about it as I had bought a week pass.(its a 2 minute journey-around 90p)
When I got off at Piccadilly I was stopped and questioned for not having an extra ticket

I was treated like a criminal and publically humiliated over the situation in the middle of the station. In my sheer panic and actual anxiety of the situation, I gave the inspector my old address I did not intend to do this but I felt intimidated, threatened, bullied- and I was thinking that with the way he was being he could not possibly be a genuine inspector and I was being scammed (Also I did not want a stranger knowing where I live) . When I asked that he show me his ID, I then corrected myself and told him my real address and apologised for giving him the wrong details and explained why.

He then repeatedly told me that i was in serious trouble and i was to follow him, when i did he asked another inspector what he needs to do with a week ticket, this inspector said NOTHING give it her back, told me that in the future i have to get the surplus but as i have a week ticket i am obviously not fare dodging. As i said thankyou and started to leave the original inspector told me *you will be hearing from us- you are in serious trouble- hold on to your ticket for my evidence* i asked what would happen to me and he wouldnt tell me. Nothing was signed and no ticket was taken, i am now worried sick because i cant get a criminal record and frankly i have no money either to pay huge fines...i dont know how long it takes to come through the post and i am also worried (by reading other threads) i will get court dates through when im on holiday beginning of aug and not know about them

can any one advise or know anyone in a similar situation?
thanks

 

[455driver]

Did you get the name of the second inspector, I wouldnt worry too much it sounds like a power mad d1ckhead trying to show how important he is!
The correct procedures have not been followed either so that could also be used in the (VERY unlikely) event of this going to court.

But, giving them a wrong address is a very serious matter and could lead to problems in its own right, not a good idea, if you had any doubts about his ID you should have asked earlier.

PS dont forget next time

 

[jon0844]

I would have refused to give details until he could prove who he was, but not given false details.

Also, did you approach them or did they stop you (as in, if they hadn't - you could have gone through without paying). That wouldn't look good either.

However, it seems that there's no chance of anything happening as you kept your ticket (the evidence) and were allowed on your way by someone else.

 

[woodyalessandr]

They stopped me, apparently there were little tabs been given out on this day in 2 particular stations to hand in with your tickets.

I never managed to get the second inspectors name as i was a bit worried, i was stupid giving him my old address but about 30 seconds later i realised this and confessed before he phoned it through- again it was before i realised he was an official. He was too busy really being aggressive and telling me how much trouble i was in and i honestly thought that REAL inspectors couldn’t treat or talk to people that way without good cause (ie: a scally giving them jib!)

The only thing that calms me down a bit is when i asked him right at the end in front what would happened he mumbled something about * they will prob ask you to pay the difference in fair* he was really peed off tho as he couldnt keep my ticket, and i think it annoyed him as after that he still went on about me being in trouble and wouldnt tell me anything else he was doing or what would happen to me

so i can guarantee he will file a report.

does anyone know the correct procedure?

Thanks

 

[clagmonster]

Please may I clarify a point. Did the train you travelled on call at Burnage?
Also, do you mean to say that there was a system in place whereby all passengers travelling from Burnage where given an extra ticket when entering the station. If this is the case, I suspect that Northern have put in an operation in order to catch people buying a ticket for a shorter journey than they intended making, which in your case, whether or not by intention, you did.
Please could you give a rough indication of the order of the conversation.
It is possible that Northern will prosecute for fare evasion. I have no legal training, so I don't know how much of a case they would have in these circumstances. Also, it is a criminal offence to give a false adress to a railway official, so I suppose you could also be prosecuted for that. Whether the fact that you corrected yourself will make a difference I don't know, I suspect the most it could do is sway a magistrate to give a lesser sentence.
If the inspector gave you anything with any reference on it, I would advise writing to Northern (or TPE if it was one of their inspectors), quoting the reference, with a copy of your pass and also payment for the full single fare from East Didsbury to Burnage, which is £1.20.

 

[woodyalessandr]

Hi
Thanks for the reply, Yes the train did call at Burnage, I think the system you are talking about must have been the case for this day, I was in mania that morning and it didn’t even cross my mind I had got on in didsbury when I got my ticket, I have been used to buying a burnage week ticket for 3 weeks now.
The conversation order was, where did I travel from (and I was too honest – but he was really intimidating) , im in trouble, my old address, me telling my current address once realising, him calling to clarify I live there, him asking me to follow him to get everything in order, the second inspector giving me my ticket back and telling me as it’s a week ticket im not seen to be trying to dodge a fare and to make sure that next time i get a ticket for that short journey, the first inspector then told me I was in trouble still and he was reporting me, then telling me to keep my ticket as HIS evidence and that was it. No reference number was given or information, at this point I wasn’t even thinking straight as I was late for work and typical girl style crying!!!

 

[Failed Unit]

They stopped me, apparently there were little tabs been given out on this day in 2 particular stations to hand in with your tickets.

I never managed to get the second inspectors name as i was a bit worried, i was stupid giving him my old address but about 30 seconds later i realised this and confessed before he phoned it through- again it was before i realised he was an official. He was too busy really being aggressive and telling me how much trouble i was in and i honestly thought that REAL inspectors couldn’t treat or talk to people that way without good cause (ie: a scally giving them jib!)

The only thing that calms me down a bit is when i asked him right at the end in front what would happened he mumbled something about * they will prob ask you to pay the difference in fair* he was really peed off tho as he couldnt keep my ticket, and i think it annoyed him as after that he still went on about me being in trouble and wouldnt tell me anything else he was doing or what would happen to me

so i can guarantee he will file a report.

does anyone know the correct procedure?

Thanks

Northern don't operate a penalty fares system, so they haven't really got anything to go on. You haven't signed anything so Northern would not send it to court as it is just a your word against his situation.

I know from personal experience the inspectors at Manchester Piccadilly a bit OTT.

If I was you I would put a complaint into Northern, even if you don't know the inspectors name they may feed it back to thier sub-contractor. Two wrongs don't make a right and they should be trained to handle situations calmly no matter what the person at the other end is doing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

however: the OP admits that the ticket office was open, so he did have the opportunity to purchase the correct ticket. the NCOC says nothing about having to wait an unreasonable amount of time.

I think you will find that most operators have Charters stating what a reasonable wait is. 10 minutes is the max most operators say is reasonable. Lets say you were at Edinburgh Waverley, you arrive at 1345 wanting the 1400 train, do you think it is reasonable to miss the train just because you can't buy a ticket and then be hit with a fine? I have been let through the barriers in penalty fares areas and bought my ticket on the train with gold card discount due to an excesive queue. Many stations now only have one window for travel for today or in Advance, someone travelling in advance on a complicated journey can take a while. The TOC should not be allowed to hit travellers because of thier lack of staff!

 

[woodyalessandr]

a few people have told me to complain
but i dont know if its worth it as if this inspector does not report it, i will be putting myself into the heap?
I really hope nothing happens, im so glad i wasnt asked to sign anything, i presume they make you do this once they have revoked your ticket before you go and not at the beginning
any advice?
thanks again

 

[First class]

Personally I think you knew exactly what you were doing giving your 'previous' address. If you were so unsure whether this person was genuine, why would you a) show him your ticket and b) give any address at all?

I believe the fine goes up to £1000 or 3 months imprisonment (which would be quite rare).

 

[clagmonster]

I would advise writing to Northern unless you hear anything further as there is still the matter of the unpaid £1.20 for East Didsbury-Burnage, which if you complain they might decide to take further action on.
At what stage were you told of the system of barrier staff giving additional tickets at Burnage? If you told the inspector here you came from before that, you have at least the fact that you were honest when first challenged in your favour in the event of further action.

I don't think excess queues have anything to do with this one, as the OP admits that he merely forgot to purchase an additional ticket. I do believe he is in the wrong though, and as such if he hears anything further about the incident, he should reply to Northern enclosing a copy of his pass and a cheque for £1.20 to cover the unpaid fare.

 

[woodyalessandr]

First Class
i showed him my ticket as thats what i do to inspectors every day when you go passed the barriers, you may say i knew exactly what i was doing but really do you honestly think i would buy a week pass (at £15) and jump on a train a station earlier to save £1.20 when i could get a pass from that station for £17?

as for the address i can only presume you are not a female and have never been intimidated by an aggressive man trying to force information from you- when your in a panic and don’t know whats going on you do not think straight, as i said less than 30 seconds once i realised that he had ID and we genuine i spoke up and told him the truth, he phoned through my address at this point


Clagg Monster - Do you mean not write to them??

Thankyou

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The way this revenue operation works is quite effective.

Passenger joins train at Heald Green without ticket despite there being an open ticket office. Train is too busy with too frequent stops for the Guard to get down. Meanwhile, further down the line Revenue are out at Mauldeth Road and Burnage. They are ensuring everyone has a valid ticket prior to boarding AND not letting anyone on the station without an additiona "ticket" - which is effectively a voucher proving that the passenger actually joined at either Mauldeth Road or Burnage.

Upon arrival at Manchester Piccadilly ticketless passenger from Heald Green can't get out without a ticket. He doesn't know about this operation, and in a bid to save himself a few £ he asks for a single from Mauldeth Road to Manchester. He is then immediately pounced on by the inspectors and questioned over where he really started his journey. He is then reported for prosecution for fare evasion, as by asking for a ticket from Mauldeth Road he has deliberately tried to avoid paying the correct fare.

Northern and TPE do not have a Penalty Fares policy, so there is no penalty fare to issue and nothing to sign. It goes straight through to prosecutions as a TIR (Travel Irregularity Report) for conversion to an MG11 statement. By giving false details it only adds to the case.

Season ticket holders have to retain their season tickets if it still has validity left on it.

The only thing there may have been to sign would have been the inspectors notebook had he questioned you under caution - which it sounds like he didn't - hence you may well get away with it - but only time will tell.

On this route this type of fare evasion is very common. I once had someone in a suit try it with me on the train. We had left Manchester Airport and stopped at Heald Green, Gatley and East Didsbury, but not at Burnage and Mauldeth Road. As we approached Piccadilly, this chap asked for a single from Mauldeth Road to Piccadilly. I said we didn't stop at Mauldeth Road. He then said he got on at the last stop. I asked which one, and he said he couldn't remember. Quite blatantly trying to avoid the correct fare he eventually said he had got on at Heald Green. I sold him a ticket as I didn't have time for anything else but if I had felt so inclined, and reported him, that could have cost him dearly.

 

[Failed Unit]

So in a simular situation when you are basically getting an extension, when getting stopped at the barrier you should ask for the extension right away? It is a good way of getting the dishonest as I am sure that many people that were needing the extension probably wouldn't bother once the train has entered the area valid by the season ticket.

I know some years back Scotrail got loads of people travelling from "South Gyle", they had a barrier in place at South Gyle that day so they gave them once chance to change their minds and then hit them. It wouldn't have stopped anyone who had chanced it by buying a South Gyle - Edinburgh ticket on line and then travelled from a station further back.

Would these be Northern employees or GCR? (whoever Northern have subcontracted out to) at Manchester. I do find that the some of the staff at Manchester are a bit power mad!

 

[woodyalessandr]

in a suit, really? saying that i have been on the straight through train from East Didsbury before and heard people asking for Mauldeth Road, but never knew the outcome as im rushing off to work.

I agree the method is effective and have actually laughed at people being pulled up before (that will teach me) Its just typical that a non offender gets stopped on my first (non intentional) offence

Thankyou for the advice, as you say only time will tell, my main worry is gaining a criminal record as i will not be able to continue with my volunteering, there should be a chance to pay a penalty with NWR

I know from now i will just buy a pass from East Didsbury at least when i stay in Burnage i am covered then and can avoid any of these situations

im 100% sure i didnt sign his notepad, im sure he would have made me once he had revoked my ticket, so im lucky in that sense. Im just hoping for the best and learnt a valuable lesson, nothing that can be done now i suspect.

 

[Mojo]

How exactly would the scheme described by kwvr45 work? What if I had a ticket from Anytown to Burnage and then another ticket from Burnage to Manchester, and I was splitting my tickets at this station and thus would have no reason to enter/exit?

 

[yorkie]

can any one advise or know anyone in a similar situation?
thanks

yep!

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Passenger-innocent-of-10p-fare.1347422.jp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/4697212.stm

Northern always assume you won't get decent legal representation. Providing you do, you should win - assuming what you've said is correct of course.

It would be great to see Northern lose again, good luck!

If only it was Northern shareholders profits that was being thrown away, rather than taxpayers money.... :mad:

 

[Solent&Wessex]

How exactly would the scheme described by kwvr45 work? What if I had a ticket from Anytown to Burnage and then another ticket from Burnage to Manchester, and I was splitting my tickets at this station and thus would have no reason to enter/exit?

Because you have tickets for your entire journey and have a very reasonable explanation, so you are fine. It is more aimed at those from further out who have no ticket at all and try to buy one for just one stop back to save some money. With two tickets you are fine as if challenged, you just say "I've used this ticket from a to b, and this one from b to c", all sorted.

 

[Mojo]

Are you under an obligation to retain a ticket for the entire journey though? I wouldn't always have all tickets I've used in one journey to hand after they cease to be of any use.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Are you under an obligation to retain a ticket for the entire journey though? I wouldn't always have all tickets I've used in one journey to hand after they cease to be of any use.

I am not sure, but there is probably a clause somewhere that says you should retain all tickets for your journey until you have left the station. As I said I suspect if you had a ticket it wouldn't be a problem - it is aimed at those who have no ticket at all.

 

[yorkie]

I do find something odd though. The OP showed a pass that was clearly valid from at the location where the ticket was being checked and valid for disembarking from the train in question. There is no way for barrier staff at Piccadilly to know that there is anything amiss there. This idea of 'extra' tickets is surely nonsense? Do Northern really issue extra tickets in this way? If so, what is the legality of that?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I do find something odd though. The OP showed a pass that was clearly valid from at the location where the ticket was being checked and valid for disembarking from the train in question. There is no way for barrier staff at Piccadilly to know that there is anything amiss there. This idea of 'extra' tickets is surely nonsense? Do Northern really issue extra tickets in this way? If so, what is the legality of that?

I must say that this is the bit I find puzzling. Although I am aware of these extra "tickets", I have always understood it that if you had a valid ticket then you were ok - having said that, I have been informed that revenue at both Northern and TPE have got wise to the fact that on certain routes people deliberately only ever buy season tickets for part of the journey and then just claim to "be doing a bit extra today" and ask to pay the add on.

 

[jon0844]

Northern and TPE have got wise to the fact that on certain routes people deliberately only ever buy season tickets for part of the journey and then just claim to "be doing a bit extra today" and ask to pay the add on.

FCC have people getting seasons from, say, Hatfield to Potters Bar and then chancing it between there and Finsbury Park, where you can now switch to your PAYG Oyster (or another season ticket) as there's currently no gates and very few staffed barriers. I am sure you can save quite a bit.

But they can't catch many people, given that I always show a season that ends at the boundary and in many years it's never been noticed (and, yes, I do have a Z1-6 ticket too) if I am now beyond its validity - so even being checked between the areas of your ticket validity is hardly going to put people off that have worked this out. What the RPIs should do is be a bit tougher and actually ask to see the tickets close up every now and then. Never seen it yet.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

sorry that is my fault if you read my first post i added on here for advice as i couldnt start a thread for some reason, so half way through the topic is slightly changed from the OP to my query

It might be a good idea to split this thread as there are now two totally different stories that will clearly get mixed up.

 

[yorkie]

It might be a good idea to split this thread as there are now two totally different stories that will clearly get mixed up.

I've done that now. I removed a couple of posts that are no longer applicable or do not make sense in the context of this topic, and moved the rest of the posts to this, new topic.

 

[Ferret]

Yikes! What a mess. For one, giving a false address is an offence, and if I was a magistrate I'd not be prepared to accept that a defendant 'forgot' his real address. It just seems a bit too implausible. As for the original issue, well, ultimately it is your responsibility to have a valid ticket for your journey. I fear that you've dropped yourself in the merde I'm afraid...

 

[clagmonster]

I agree, it sounds like a cunning system.
The one thing, for me, in the OP's favour is they claim that as soon as the inspector asked where (s)he boarded, (s)he was honest and stated East Didsbury. This does not strike me as the actions of a fare evader, although I have no experience in their detection.
I can also understand initially lying about their address, not that I agree with it, but the fact they came clean is surely a positive. Unless, of course, there was mention of the inspector checking it in which case this would be the obvious course of action. They are guilty of giving a false address, whether Northern would prosecute for it I don't know, but if they do I would imagine they would be found guilty.
I still don't understand the initial root though, which is boarding at a different station to normal but seemingley forgetting to buy an extra ticket.

Yes, I do mean don't write to Northern unless you hear anything.

KWVR45, as a paying passenger, I would hope that in the majority of cases such as you described with the person asking for a Mauldeth Road ticket, that a prosecution would arise, but I do accept that you should ensure the punctuality of the train. It is a shame really there is no TTI or some such for you to hand said person to.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I agree, it sounds like a cunning system.
The one thing, for me, in the OP's favour is they claim that as soon as the inspector asked where (s)he boarded, (s)he was honest and stated East Didsbury. This does not strike me as the actions of a fare evader, although I have no experience in their detection.
I can also understand initially lying about their address, not that I agree with it, but the fact they came clean is surely a positive. Unless, of course, there was mention of the inspector checking it in which case this would be the obvious course of action. They are guilty of giving a false address, whether Northern would prosecute for it I don't know, but if they do I would imagine they would be found guilty.
I still don't understand the initial root though, which is boarding at a different station to normal but seemingley forgetting to buy an extra ticket.

Yes, I do mean don't write to Northern unless you hear anything.

KWVR45, as a paying passenger, I would hope that in the majority of cases such as you described with the person asking for a Mauldeth Road ticket, that a prosecution would arise, but I do accept that you should ensure the punctuality of the train. It is a shame really there is no TTI or some such for you to hand said person to.

Yes, ideally you would prosecute in this case, but in this case it is really only an RPO who can do that. The passenger would need to be cautioned under PACE which as a Guard I cannot do. If I put a TIR in then it is very difficult to prove. By being cautioned, and then the statement being written and signed there and then, it is very difficult to wriggle out of at a later time. The best I can do is interrogate him until he talks sense and then make sure he actually pays the correct fare. In other circumstances of no money / no railcard / false ticket / out of date ticket etc it is different and I can - and do - put reports in regularly. It is always satisfying seeing your name in the court results and the huge fine someone has been given for trying to save a few £!

 

[woodyalessandr]

its my fault i got on a stop earlier as i live nearer a different station and popped home that morning, but for the last few weeks ive been going from the station after mine (2 mins away)- when i got my week pass i was going back to Burnage all week and simply didnt click that i had got on at East Dids that morning, its silly really because there is only £4 difference in the pass and if i thought about it i could just have avoided all this im suprised i was sold a ticket without being asked for the exta tab tho.

 

[caughtonatrain]

Yikes! What a mess. For one, giving a false address is an offence, and if I was a magistrate I'd not be prepared to accept that a defendant 'forgot' his real address. It just seems a bit too implausible. As for the original issue, well, ultimately it is your responsibility to have a valid ticket for your journey. I fear that you've dropped yourself in the merde I'm afraid...

I think the OP has explained why a false address was given, which in any case was not a false address, merely an old address. As far as I am aware the legal system does not recognise that we "have" one legally recognised address except for electoral reasons. I myself have been in situations where you get some jumped up intimidating jobsworth and your first reaction is "why should I give you any personally identifying info about me? get stuffed!". It would be different if they were polite, discreet, properly identified themselves and some air of authority about them.

Frankly, I can't believe the comments made by Ferret and earlier by First Class. They are mechanistic and unfeeling beyond belief. If it was the OP's intention to get away with it, why would she post on this website in the first place?

There's far too much smugness and perfection amongst some of the people on this site. If I get flamed for this, I don't care.

And I would like to see something said about the legality of these 'vouchers' being issued by Northern at Burnage (as Yorkie pointed out). It's a joke to treat customers in that way. It's underhand, deceitful and patronising to the 99% law abiding (if sometimes forgetful) passengers. What would have happened if a passenger was legally combining two tickets? Why should they be forced to defend this publicly under an accusatorial spotlight by some jumped up gorilla? (Forgive me, but in my extensive experience of travelling by rail that's basically what I find RPI's to be. Sorry.)

The TOCs have a very dim view of humanity. They should concentrate on staffing up properly (guards not RPIs), getting their services and rolling stock right (I don't care about the usual "it's the DfT..... this and that", if they're not big enough to invest in a few train carriages of their own volition, what's the point of a private operator on our railways).

The whole railway system nowadays basically makes me sick. It's no wonder people eschew it in favour of their cars.

 

[Mr Spock]

The more I read the more confused I get about what happened at Piccadilly.

First you gave the inspector a false address because you did not believe he was a real one.

You then asked for his ID which he presumably he did show so you then gave him your correct address.

In your second post you then said that you gave him the correct address before you knew he was official but before he could ring up and check the wrong one!

Quite why you decided that he was not official when there were others around, you were a regular traveller into Piccadiily and you have seen them before, in a later post you say you have laughed at other people who have been stopped. Not so funny now is it.

As for your last post I do not understand what you mean by being surprised that they sold you a ticket without asking for the extra tab?

It seems to me that Northern have a good case for prosecution although whether they go through with it is anyone's guess but I for one will shed no tears if you end up in court.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm a bit confused by the original post.

If woodyalessandr was questioned at Piccadilly I'm assuming the RPI staff (who would have been G4S staff paid for by Northern not Northern staff) didn't know he/she got on at East Didsbury but knew he/she'd had alighted a service from Manchester Airport.

So is it the case that the train didn't call at Burnage? In which case a spilt ticket or excess wouldn't have been valid and a new ticket should have been purchased for the whole journey.