Dispute with Northern RPI

[sheff1]

I think all the possibilities have been aired already, so we really need to wait and see what transpires.

I would like to add, however, that I have personally encountered some of these G4S people at Piccadilly. In my opinion they should not be employed checking train tickets when they clearly have neither the knowledge nor interpersonal skills such a job requires. A role as a doorman at a less salubrious nightspot might be more suitable.
I can therefore easily understand why the OP, especially as a woman, could feel intimidated/bullied and am disappointed that a number of posters do not accept that this could cause her to give an old address by mistake.

 

[yorkie]

I can therefore easily understand why the OP, especially as a woman, could feel intimidated/bullied and am disappointed that a number of posters do not accept that this could cause her to give an old address by mistake.

The courts have accepted it in the incident I quoted earlier, so if the OP is indeed telling the truth (which I will assume to be the case until there is evidence to the contrary), I would hope and expect that the outcome would be the same and Northern could well end up with another embarrassing defeat. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Because the cases are 'no win no fee', the Prosecutor will only take them on if he feels he has an excellent chance of winning them.

I'm quite astonished to learn that Northern instruct a law firm to prosecute their fare irregularities under such an agreement; and that said firm accepts those instructions.
Could you advise which firm they are instructing under those terms, please? I'd be very gratefull to you, thanks

 

[jon0844]

Was the original post edited by the OP to say 'old address' as I thought it originally said false address in the first instance.

There's quite a difference. If you made up an address, that would be far worse than giving an old address (which might still be traceable to you, as would be the case if you were on the electoral roll, or it was your parents address etc) which could still be a valid address if you move around.

 

[yorkie]

I'm certain it always said "old address", and yes I agree. I don't see how there could be any excuse for giving a false address.

 

[tony_mac]

I'm certain it always said "old address", and yes I agree. I don't see how there could be any excuse for giving a false address.

I think a single female being asked her address by an unidentified man (not even in uniform) is perfectly sensible to give a false address.

As the correct address was given as soon as he was actually identified, I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[Ferret]

Sheff1, I'm a little disappointed that there are a number of posters on here who are unable to use a little insight and who are prepared to swallow everything at face value, especially when there's a whole host of lame excuses offered.

That barrier at Picc has been in operation for as long as I can remember. As a season ticket holder, the OP will have passed through it many times and will not have been surprised by it. This whole concept of 'I wasn't sure who was asking me my address' is very implausible I'm afraid. I remain of the opinion that the OP is in the proverbial and strongly suggest she takes Yorkie's excellent advice about legal representation.....

 

[Mr Spock]

I agree with Ferret on this one.

Just one last thing as it now transpires that she actually got on the train at East Didsbury without any sort of ticket, she now says she purchased her season on board the train, why did she not buy a ticket at the station?

 

[jon0844]

Giving a false address can't be right in ANY circumstances? You would surely refuse to give any details until such time that you can confirm the identity/authority of the person asking. However, it seems that this was never said in the original post so I apologise for even bringing it up.

Assuming it wasn't late at night and an otherwise empty station, I am not sure why it makes any difference that it was a 'single female' as if we're now to believe that train staff might not just be bullies but could have actually done something nasty to her.

 

[northwichcat]

Exactly. Despite what some may say or think, the fact that a railway byelaw has been broken does not automatically mean that the person in question should or will be prosecuted, or that the prosecution is guaranteed to succeed. The law simply does not wokr like that in this country, depsite the introduction of fixed penalties which encourage people to admit an offence and get things over with just so they can avoid the hassle of having to defend themselves.

And it's a railway byelaw that gets broken every day by a lot of people who wouldn't try to avoid paying fares - they just aren't able to buy a ticket. Many Northern Rail stations are understaffed, others that aren't close in the early afternoon and some are completly unstaffed. Northern Rail conductors need to sometimes be able to issue 20 tickets in 3 minutes - that isn't possible. What happens when the passengers alight at a station where the ticket office is closed? Do they tell you to post you fare to them or pay online? No. It's a case of if you're unable to buy a ticket then you travel free. Would WH Smith or any other retailer operate like that? No.

 

[455driver]

I am not sure why it makes any difference that it was a 'single female'

Because they only want "equal rights" when it suits them.
I have recently taken a motoring organisation to task as they advertise that lone women get priority and yet pay the same as everyone else. Surely this is sex discrimination against men, Lets just say it had an "interesting" outcome

 

[222007]

Are you under an obligation to retain a ticket for the entire journey though? I wouldn't always have all tickets I've used in one journey to hand after they cease to be of any use.

It is advisable to keep ALL tickets if you split them. Take the other day i was conducting a full ticket check i come across a gent who asked for a ticket to his station. I asked how he got through the ticket barrier (which i had walked through to get to my train) i asked how he got through to which he replied i didnt go through the barrier i came from walsall. When i asked to see the ticket for that journey he couldnt produce it. I advised him that on this occasion i would take his word for it but in future he would need to retain the previous ticket otherwise he could be charged as he cannot prove he had a ticket. I might well have had the wool pulled over my eyes but time will tell

 

[jon0844]

Why wouldn't you have that ticket? When would you board a train, pass the point where one ticket ended and the other began, do you now decide to burn the old one, or cut it into microscopic pieces that could never be reformed?

Even if you changed train, why would you throw the old ticket away until you've completed the whole journey - or in my case, about a month later when my ticket wallet is bulging with tickets!

 

[northwichcat]

Why wouldn't you have that ticket? When would you board a train, pass the point where one ticket ended and the other began, do you now decide to burn the old one, or cut it into microscopic pieces that could never be reformed!

At some stations you have your tickets taken off you as you leave a platform e.g. Manchester Piccadilly so could have one ticket taken off you and not be asked for one when going on to another platform. However, that won't usually be the case at stations with automatic ticket barriers - Liverpool Lime St is an exception though.

 

[jon0844]

If you had a ticket that covered even just a small part of the next journey, would you not get to keep the ticket? If you'd completed it, you'd now have a ticket from there onwards?

 

[455driver]

At some stations you have your tickets taken off you as you leave a platform e.g. Manchester Piccadilly so could have one ticket taken off you and not be asked for one when going on to another platform. However, that won't usually be the case at stations with automatic ticket barriers - Liverpool Lime St is an exception though.

So if he had left the station and had his ticket taken (barriers?) how did he get back in through the barriers without another ticket. If he had not left the station then he would still have the old ticket.

 

[Greenback]

I agree with Ferret on this one.

Just one last thing as it now transpires that she actually got on the train at East Didsbury without any sort of ticket, she now says she purchased her season on board the train, why did she not buy a ticket at the station?

I was confused by this as well. I remain unsure about the exact sequence and location of events, but I am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt until, as yorkie said, there is better evidence tot he contrary!

And it's a railway byelaw that gets broken every day by a lot of people who wouldn't try to avoid paying fares - they just aren't able to buy a ticket. Many Northern Rail stations are understaffed, others that aren't close in the early afternoon and some are completly unstaffed. Northern Rail conductors need to sometimes be able to issue 20 tickets in 3 minutes - that isn't possible. What happens when the passengers alight at a station where the ticket office is closed? Do they tell you to post you fare to them or pay online? No. It's a case of if you're unable to buy a ticket then you travel free. Would WH Smith or any other retailer operate like that? No.

Exactly right. this has always been the case for very short journeys. Even in the 1990's guards were unable to sell tickets to all of the people boarding trains at unstaffed stations on the Bedwyn line. It's sometimes just physically impossible to issue all the tickets.

TOC's know they will lose revenue through unstaffed stations, and they seem happy to accept that yet penalise someone who is usually honest and has made a genuine mistake costing the company £1.50 or whatever. I have previously listed occurrences where ATW have deliberately not collected fares totalling £100's, which has irritated me as an honest, fare paying customer. If I forgot my annual season had expired, and was prosecuted for fare evasion the day after expiry rather than being asked to pay the daily fare, I would be very unhappy indeed!

 

[northwichcat]

So if he had left the station and had his ticket taken (barriers?) how did he get back in through the barriers without another ticket. If he had not left the station then he would still have the old ticket.

I wasn't meaning in that exact case I was saying it was possible to do at Manchester Piccadilly (where revenue staff take the tickets not barriers) and Liverpool Lime St (where there's a mix of no ticket checks, automatic barriers and manual barriers depending on the platform used.)

 

[Ferret]

And it's a railway byelaw that gets broken every day by a lot of people who wouldn't try to avoid paying fares - they just aren't able to buy a ticket. Many Northern Rail stations are understaffed, others that aren't close in the early afternoon and some are completly unstaffed. Northern Rail conductors need to sometimes be able to issue 20 tickets in 3 minutes - that isn't possible. What happens when the passengers alight at a station where the ticket office is closed? Do they tell you to post you fare to them or pay online? No. It's a case of if you're unable to buy a ticket then you travel free. Would WH Smith or any other retailer operate like that? No.

A real pet hate of mine - why can't ticket offices be staffed? I'm down the southwest this weekend and Newton Abbot ticket office has been shut all afternoon...and if my pager is to be believed, that's a regular event at the moment. Come on FGW, that really isn't good enough...! Furthermore, why do the DfT not get involved here? As much as I believe everyone should pay their fares, the TOCs have an obligation to make sure that their customers actually can do so!!!!

 

[455driver]

I wasn't meaning in that exact case I was saying it was possible to do at Manchester Piccadilly (where revenue staff take the tickets not barriers) and Liverpool Lime St (where there's a mix of no ticket checks, automatic barriers and manual barriers depending on the platform used.)

So don't give the expired ticket to the staff then! As for the Liverpool example, is that relevant to 222007s post or are you just picking a station that fits your scenario.
222007 had stated that HE had passed through the barriers to board the train so unless the passenger had deliberately gone the long way round to avoid the barriers (why if he was being genuine) he would have had to pass through those same barriers or have already been on the train in which case he should have been in possession of the ticket for the first part of the journey!

 

[northwichcat]

As much as I believe everyone should pay their fares, the TOCs have an obligation to make sure that their customers actually can do so!!!!

In the Merseyrail passenger's charter they say they issue penalty fares to prevent people from not paying which results in them having to charge more for fares. That's a valid point. However, as mentioned Northern Rail have poor ticket selling facilities and they are of the same ownership as Merseyrail.

The other thing it can lead to is normally honest people realising that many people aren't paying fares, so in the event of them not being able to buy a ticket unless they go to the ticket office at the end of their journey - they just won't bother.

 

[yorkie]

There isn't enough information in the example given by 222007 to judge, in my opinion. (e.g., where was the ticket purchased from, where were the interchanges, etc).

As for the OP, I think she is not the best at wording things, some people are not so good at English. I would strongly advise she gets a solicitor involved, preferably one with experience of dealing with railway ticketing matters. I would advise passing on the links I provided to the solicitor and then it is a case of hoping for a similar outcome to that case. I recall at around the same time someone on the Ilkley line had a dispute with Northern over where he got off, and he lost the case, despite it being his word against the guards. I note that he decided to represent himself to save costs. That was a big mistake in my opinion, as he wanted to become a lawyer...

 

[northwichcat]

So don't give the expired ticket to the staff then! As for the Liverpool example, is that relevant to 222007s post or are you just picking a station that fits your scenario.
222007 had stated that HE had passed through the barriers to board the train so unless the passenger had deliberately gone the long way round to avoid the barriers (why if he was being genuine) he would have had to pass through those same barriers or have already been on the train in which case he should have been in possession of the ticket for the first part of the journey!

In post 72 jonmorris seemed to be implying that you'd be able to keep hold of any ticket in that situation for a month afterwards. I think people are trying to make out that my posts should be 100% relevant to the story in post 71 because post 72 was in reply to post 71.

At Manchester Piccadilly I can think of a situation where someone could board a train at the time of a full ticket inspection without a ticket. Two people from Bolton arrive on a Northern service arriving at platform 14 on a 'Duo' ticket, but they want to continue to Buxton. On leaving platform 13 the station staff take their expired Duo ticket and find that the next train departs from platform 10, they can then board this train avoiding the ticket checking staff at the other end of platform 10.

 

[jon0844]

I didn't mean you could keep your ticket for a month (and that was just a random time picked out of the air). I simply asked why someone would throw away a ticket BEFORE completing the journey.

Now, I often complete a journey having never had my tickets checked and I still keep hold of them - and then notice them weeks later when my ticket holder is bulging. This is in addition to my season ticket, obviously.

 

[MCR247]

Sorry, but how can you honestly forget where you got on? That doesn't sound right to me.

 

[Lampshade]

The Styal Line stations are all pretty much identical, could just have been force of habit. Those extra 'vouchers' however are another thing altogether, my thoughts on those when I'm next at a computer.

 

[richw]

TOC's know they will lose revenue through unstaffed stations, and they seem happy to accept that yet penalise someone who is usually honest and has made a genuine mistake costing the company £1.50 or whatever. I have previously listed occurrences where ATW have deliberately not collected fares totalling £100's, which has irritated me as an honest, fare paying customer. If I forgot my annual season had expired, and was prosecuted for fare evasion the day after expiry rather than being asked to pay the daily fare, I would be very unhappy indeed!

my brother is at UWIC in Cardiff studying, and returns to cornwall for athletics competitions most weekend, and has often commented how hes got all the way from Cardiff Central to Truro without needing a ticket, which involves changing at Bristol or taunton, and the only time he has needed his ticket is getting through the barrier at Cardiff, he wont take the risk in case he gets caught, but it makes me wander how much revenue the TOCs are losing by people who realise they can do this, he travels down on the same services each Friday, and back up on Monday morning on the same service,

 

[Greenback]

Barriers alone are not the answer to fare evasion. On train ticket checks are still required. I've gone down to plymouth and the South West many times, and I noticed last year that FGW aren't quite so hot on ticket checking between Bristol and Plymouth as they used to be.

On train 'all ticket' checks are invluable, even if a minority of passengers are irriitated by them. Not only does it ensure that everyone has a valid ticket, customers can ask questions, and staff can spot anyone who might be in need of extra help, perhaps because of an important conenction on a late running service.

We'll be going down to Bodmin next week, I'm looking forward to seeing how things are now!

 

[142094]

Barriers only make usre that people have some sort of ticket, not necessarily the right one. Been a few times now that I've travelled from Newcastle to York and there have been no ticket checks whatsoever, most likely due to the fact that there are barriers at Newcastle, Durham and Darlington. Wonder how many people get on at Darlington with a single to North Road and try their luck?

 

[cuccir]

Barriers only make usre that people have some sort of ticket, not necessarily the right one. Been a few times now that I've travelled from Newcastle to York and there have been no ticket checks whatsoever, most likely due to the fact that there are barriers at Newcastle, Durham and Darlington. Wonder how many people get on at Darlington with a single to North Road and try their luck?

Along this stretch too there are now cross-country only tickets between all stations; I'm pretty sure that you could use those on East Coast services due to lack of checks if you were that way inclined