Difficulty getting an Overdistance Excess on LNER

[eroded]

So I had the return portion of a Retford to London Super Offpeak Return. I wanted to use it to travel London to Gainsborough Lea Road via Doncaster.

Two tales of woe trying to get an excess:

1. King's Cross Ticket Office

Got to King's Cross in good time so went to the ticket office:

Me: "Hi, I have this London to Retford ticket I'd like to overdistance excess to Gainsborough, please. It should be £0 as they're in the same fare group"
Him: "Which train are you taking?"
Me: <shouldn't matter but I'd play along> "The 0x:03 to Doncaster, and conveniently a Gainsborough ticket is valid via Doncaster"
Him: "Not valid, sorry. The train has to stop at Retford and this one doesn't"

That doesn't make sense, but I sensed it wasn't worth an argument. I just asked the guard on boarding instead. "Yes not a problem when we come down Sir"

2. On Board

As I was in the North end of the coach, it wasn't the guard but a RPO who came down.

He didn't know what an O/D excess was, and claimed he'd never done one in 5 years for working for LNER.

He did at least persevere on the terminal and claimed he thought he'd done it - £5.65 extra. I guessed this was to an off-peak return not a super off-peak return or something, but at this stage I just wanted to get it done so I paid the man.

Turns out he'd sold me a new, separate, Retford to Gainsborough anytime return! Obviously this was useless if I wanted to go via Doncaster.

I had to patiently explain the different, suggested he ask his colleagues. Eventually he phoned his boss who told him how to do it.

So presumably, he's been selling people extra tickets for 5 years, at prices higher than they should have had to pay!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can't excess the start of a return, so they were correct to refuse. Only the destination (origin of the return half) can be excessed, and it's not an "entitled" excess so you sometimes have to shop around.

 

[eroded]

You can't excess the start of a return, so they were correct to refuse.

Oh! I didn't know that, thanks.

"they were correct to refuse" - just for the wrong reasons! Is that like how a stopped clock is right twice a day?

 

[Wallsendmag]

You can't excess the start of a return, so they were correct to refuse. Only the destination (origin of the return half) can be excessed, and it's not an "entitled" excess so you sometimes have to shop around.

What he said.

 

[maniacmartin]

That explanation is different to what the two members of staff on the ground said though!

 

[Wallsendmag]

That explanation is different to what the two members of staff on the ground said though!

We've had the inability to overdistance X/S the return half of a ticket beyond the start point flagged as a system fault on more than one occasion. We have to explain that it isn't possible because it isn't allowed.

 

[eroded]

Well he sold me it in the end!

Ticket says “X/S Flexible”

 

[Wallsendmag]

Well he sold me it in the end!

Ticket says “X/S Flexible”

Oh theres a way to do it but it's not supposed to be done.

 

[Haywain]

Well he sold me it in the end!

Ticket says “X/S Flexible”

How much were you charged?

 

[Wallsendmag]

How much were you charged?

Or even better can you post a pic of the X/S

 

[yorkie]

Obtaining anything like this from a ticket office is a complete lottery

Well he sold me it in the end!

Ticket says “X/S Flexible”

Posting the details could get someone into trouble

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2022 ==

You can't excess the start of a return, so they were correct to refuse. Only the destination (origin of the return half) can be excessed, and it's not an "entitled" excess so you sometimes have to shop around.

Not sure if "can't" is the right word; it is one interpretation and indeed can be a limitation of some systems, but I have seen it done...

 

[eroded]

I shall't post a photo as wouldn't want to get anyone into trouble, but it was a £0 excess as expected. I genuinely had no idea about the inability to excess past the origin on a return.

However I am confident that I would have had exactly the same problems and objections from both staff members were it the outbound portion of a London to Retford return.

In practice I would always buy a Gainsborough origin ticket, however I was in a rush at Retford when purchasing and didn't want to risk faffing around changing the origin on the TVM (indeed this isn't even possible on some TVMs I find).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crikey, you managed to get a zero-fare excess? I've never managed that even when it was one that was legitimate to issue!

 

[Haywain]

Posting the details could get someone into trouble

We've already got enough for that, if we wanted it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2022 ==

I shall't post a photo as wouldn't want to get anyone into trouble, but it was a £0 excess as expected.

However I am confident that I would have had exactly the same problems and objections from both staff members were it the outbound portion of a London to Retford return.

There are clearly training issues in this matter. It is, for example, unclear to me what the £5.65 ticket you were initially sold might have been. And had you been refused the excess with a ticket FROM London, you would want those issues addressed.

I was in a rush at Retford when purchasing and didn't want to risk faffing around changing the origin on the TVM (indeed this isn't even possible on some TVMs I find).

LNER TVMs allow the origin to be changed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We've already got enough for that, if we wanted it.

Zero fare excesses tend to be flagged up for a "please explain" anyway, don't they, hence why some staff don't like doing them?

 

[eroded]

It is, for example, unclear to me what the £5.65 ticket you were initially sold might have been.

It was an anytime day return from Retford to Gainsborough Stations. Which naturally didn't help me at all as I was going via Doncaster.

If I hadn't challenged it and eventually got the right excess, the connecting Doncaster to Gainsborough EMT service guard would have presumably stung me for another new ticket Doncaster to Gainsborough, or worse, prosecuted!

 

[Haywain]

It was an anytime day return from Retford to Gainsborough Stations.

The price of which is £5.80, according to BRFares.com

 

[Wallsendmag]

No problem just searching the records now I was more interested in how it had been issued than any reprcussions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2022 ==

Yup that was issued exactly how I'd expected it to be.

 

[zwk500]

Out of interest, as the Excess was not supposed to have been issued (if I've followed the thread correctly), and a Retford to Gainsborough ticket isn't valid via Doncaster, what should the OP have been sold?

 

[Haywain]

Out of interest, as the Excess was not supposed to have been issued (if I've followed the thread correctly), and a Retford to Gainsborough ticket isn't valid via Doncaster, what should the OP have been sold?

That depends which train he was travelling on. But it should have been a ticket (or tickets, as appropriate) from Retford or the last calling point before Doncaster to cover the journey being taken - so, potentially, Newark to Doncaster and Doncaster to Gainsborough.

 

[FatContr0ller]

Sorry to jump in here, I'm booking office staff, been on the job since 2018 - work in a reasonably busy station just outside of London. I'm mortified by some users comments on here about their experiences of staff and staff knowledge.
Maybe I'm lucky that I was trained in station by 2 ex BR staff, but I'm pretty confident I can cope with 95% of issues brought up on this forum and issue correct tickets to whatever spec the pax want!
Just to let you all know that there are some of us good ones dotted around the railway still!

 

[mmh]

Zero fare excesses tend to be flagged up for a "please explain" anyway, don't they, hence why some staff don't like doing them?

In my experience my local operator, and their predecessors, don't care if you use a ticket with a short destination to a station with an identical price. No doubt, as you say, it's just far too much hassle to do otherwise.

Other TOCs and stations will be different, why wouldn't they be? Sigh.

 

[323235]

Sorry to jump in here, I'm booking office staff, been on the job since 2018 - work in a reasonably busy station just outside of London. I'm mortified by some users comments on here about their experiences of staff and staff knowledge.
Maybe I'm lucky that I was trained in station by 2 ex BR staff, but I'm pretty confident I can cope with 95% of issues brought up on this forum and issue correct tickets to whatever spec the pax want!
Just to let you all know that there are some of us good ones dotted around the railway still!

It’s always a breath of fresh air when we get people like you and the knowledge you bring to the table.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my experience my local operator, and their predecessors, don't care if you use a ticket with a short destination to a station with an identical price. No doubt, as you say, it's just far too much hassle to do otherwise.

Other TOCs and stations will be different, why wouldn't they be? Sigh.

This used to be accepted on Merseyrail, but then came penalty fares.

 

[FatContr0ller]

It’s always a breath of fresh air when we get people like you and the knowledge you bring to the table.

Cheers!

 

[jamiearmley]

I second this:

Sorry to jump in here, I'm booking office staff, been on the job since 2018 - work in a reasonably busy station just outside of London. I'm mortified by some users comments on here about their experiences of staff and staff knowledge.
Maybe I'm lucky that I was trained in station by 2 ex BR staff, but I'm pretty confident I can cope with 95% of issues brought up on this forum and issue correct tickets to whatever spec the pax want!
Just to let you all know that there are some of us good ones dotted around the railway still!

Im six years into being a guard, and again trained by ex BR staff (partly). Not only is a zero fare excess something i happily issue regularly (especially since the advent of penalty fares, where another station being the same price doesn't wash), but if i can't do something, i find out why : and if i can't find out why i give the passenger a written authority to make the journey without charge, taking the view that one should always err in favour of the customer in a situation where one is not CERTAIN of the correct solution.

I am by far from the only one who takes this attitude at my depot, although there are plenty who run away from anything more complex than a CDR.

 

[LowLevel]

Zero fare excesses tend to be flagged up for a "please explain" anyway, don't they, hence why some staff don't like doing them?

They flag up but you put the reason on to the shift sheet so there is rarely any please explain involved.

The TIS I use won't change the origin for an excess. There is a workaround (in the loosest possible terms for doing something with a cash handling system which it appears to be intentionally designed not to do) which some people do, which then annoys the passengers when the next ticket inspector, including me, refuses to do it.

I'll do anything at all that I can legitimately, but I won't fudge the TIS to achieve something.

 

[FatContr0ller]

I second this:

Im six years into being a guard, and again trained by ex BR staff (partly). Not only is a zero fare excess something i happily issue regularly (especially since the advent of penalty fares, where another station being the same price doesn't wash), but if i can't do something, i find out why : and if i can't find out why i give the passenger a written authority to make the journey without charge, taking the view that one should always err in favour of the customer in a situation where one is not CERTAIN of the correct solution.

I am by far from the only one who takes this attitude at my depot, although there are plenty who run away from anything more complex than a CDR.

I do a lot of cover shifts around my network, and the amount of "complaints" I get about other staff is incredible.
Im at work today, and I had someone complaining about staff in Euston to me (not my TOC or even line!)

 

[voyagerdude220]

Sorry to jump in here, I'm booking office staff, been on the job since 2018 - work in a reasonably busy station just outside of London. I'm mortified by some users comments on here about their experiences of staff and staff knowledge.
Maybe I'm lucky that I was trained in station by 2 ex BR staff, but I'm pretty confident I can cope with 95% of issues brought up on this forum and issue correct tickets to whatever spec the pax want!
Just to let you all know that there are some of us good ones dotted around the railway still!

Hello fellow Ticket Office staff!
I've been on the job since 2013 but sadly during my training I had absolutely no training on excess fares whatsoever.

I only found out yesterday(!) that up to two accompanied children can get the railcard discount when travelling with a Veteran or HM Forces Railcard holder.

In regards to excess fares- I'll happily try my best to get the Ticket Machine to issue what the passenger is requesting as long as there isn't an obvious reason why it might not be valid.

Strangely regarding zero fares- I've never once been questioned about them, but I think there's a zero fare register which is supposed to be filled in which I never have been instructed about. I suspect other colleagues may possibly just process an excess for say 10p to save it being a zero fare- but personally I think seeing it's inaccurate I don't think it's right.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have definitely had a 10p excess to avoid issuing a zero fare. More common is flat refusal.