Diesel Under the Wires

[Groningen]

If the Severn Tunnel is closed; is it than possible to go electric through Gloucester if the power is turned on in years to come?

 

[221129]

If the Severn Tunnel is closed; is it than possible to go electric through Gloucester if the power is turned on in years to come?

You need the overheads to reach there first...

 

[Clansman]

Some North Berwick and Dunbar services are worked by 158/170s (as opposed to 380s) from Edinburgh - all of which are completely under the wires.

 

[Groningen]

You need the overheads to reach there first...

Be not that funny! You know what i mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st-century_modernisation_of_the_Great_Western_Main_Line

 

[221129]

Be not that funny! You know what i mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st-century_modernisation_of_the_Great_Western_Main_Line

you can't run electric through an area that won't have wires...

 

[Scotrail84]

Some North Berwick and Dunbar services are worked by 158/170s (as opposed to 380s) from Edinburgh - all of which are completely under the wires.

A Prestonpans to Edinburgh in the morning is a 170 and the 18:41 from Haymarket to north berwick and 19:28 return is a 170 mon-fri only.

On a Saturday all the Dunbars and 158 or a turbo with the very occasional 156 too. This is because North Berwicks are half hourly and they don't have enough lecys to go round. The 18:48 to north berwick on a saturday is also a turbo.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The new wiring on the routes from Liverpool via Huyton doesn't have much to do on Sundays.
The 6tph EMUs on other days reduces to just one: the Manchester Airport service.
The weekday Liverpool-Preston reverts to diesel on Sundays, as they are extended to Blackpool, and the 4 local stoppers don't run.
Some weekday early/late services are still diesel too, so that Allerton DMUs can position elsewhere.
And everything is still running to DMU times.

 

[D6975]

On a weekday VTEC run 14 HST diagrams. Only 3 of them run entirely under the wires.
Of the other 11 a couple of them only do a few miles away from the wires.

 

[NSE]

Yes, and it is very annoying that Voyagers run under wires for entire end to end trips on the WCML given that diesels are desperately needed elsewhere on the network.

True, but they're only being used because there isn't the electric stock to work it in the first place.

 

[iain-j]

A Prestonpans to Edinburgh in the morning is a 170 and the 18:41 from Haymarket to north berwick and 19:28 return is a 170 mon-fri only.

On a Saturday all the Dunbars and 158 or a turbo with the very occasional 156 too. This is because North Berwicks are half hourly and they don't have enough lecys to go round. The 18:48 to north berwick on a saturday is also a turbo.

The weekday 14:43 out of Edinburgh to North Berwick has been a 170 the last few times I got it and according to RTT it returns to Edinburgh as the 15:22 out of North Berwick.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G65205/2016/11/04/advanced

 

[furnessvale]

True, but they're only being used because there isn't the electric stock to work it in the first place.

Meanwhile, 373s head to Kingsbury to be scrapped and cross country passengers continue to crowd onto 4 car sets.

 

[Nippy]

That has been done to death, they aren't suitable. Also this thread has to be up there amongst the most ridiculous on the forum.

 

[najaB]

Meanwhile, 373s head to Kingsbury to be scrapped and cross country passengers continue to crowd onto 4 car sets.

As has been discussed ad nausem, 373s aren't suitable for XC's routes. They were barely suitable for GR's routes.

 

[leomartin125]

May I ask why Virgin operate Voyagers on the Euston to Birmingham to Glasgow route instead of Pendolino's? I know Pendolino's do some of the Class 9 Virgin services but a lot is done with a Voyager depsite the entire route being under wires?

 

[221129]

May I ask why Virgin operate Voyagers on the Euston to Birmingham to Glasgow route instead of Pendolino's? I know Pendolino's do some of the Class 9 Virgin services but a lot is done with a Voyager depsite the entire route being under wires?

Because they don't have enough pendos...

 

[tbtc]

May I ask why Virgin operate Voyagers on the Euston to Birmingham to Glasgow route instead of Pendolino's? I know Pendolino's do some of the Class 9 Virgin services but a lot is done with a Voyager depsite the entire route being under wires?

Short answer:

Birmingham - WCML - Glasgow/ Edinburgh used to be through Cross Country services from Devon/ Cornwall etc, back when Voyagers were introduced.

So, Virgin Cross Country ordered enough Voyagers to run services based on the service patterns.

Then, with franchise changes, the route was chopped at New Street - with the WCML section running as part of the Virgin West Coast franchise (who therefore took on a share of the pool of Voyagers - in addition to the London - Holyhead Voyagers that were always required for West Coast services).

All was good for a while (but with diesel Voyagers running entirely under the wires from Birmingham to Glasgow/ Edinburgh).

Then, to squeeze the fleet further, Virgin extended the "EBWs" (Euston - Birmingham - Wolverhampton) onto the Birmingham - Glasgow/ Edinburgh services (saves a unit/ path between New Street and Wolves, so allows a 390 to replace a Voyager which allows a Voyager diagram to be doubled up).

This is all well and good (for some people), but now means that Voyagers are potentially running under the wires all the way from London to Glasgow/ Edinburgh.

It's not easy to get more 125mph tilting stock to replace these Voyagers (e.g. 800s won't tilt)

Even if you ordered more 390s (were that even possible?) then we'll have a surfeit of them once London - Birmingham/ Manchester is run by 400m HS2 services (i.e. not long enough to get your money's worth out of ordering another dozen 390s)

Virgin still need Voyagers to reach the places that wires don't (Chester, Wrexham, Holyhead, Shrewsbury and currently Blackpool), so it may be that they decided it'd be easier to have two fleets (Voyagers and Pendolini) than get in a third fleet to replace the "Voyagers under the wires", since they'll still need Voyagers on services to Chester etc.

Okay, that wasn't a short version... sorry! Maybe the really short version is "there isn't anything more suitable, given that 125mph WCML services need to tilt, and no 390s on the horizon - especially given that the WCML franchise keeps seeing piecemeal extensions that keep deferring the big questions about fleet replacement/ enhancements)

What's worse is that the decision on WCML stock and the electrification of the MML both really need to fall into place before replacement / additional stock for Cross Country can be sorted out, so us passengers on XC are even further away from seeing some decisions made.

 

[furnessvale]

As has been discussed ad nausem, 373s aren't suitable for XC's routes. They were barely suitable for GR's routes.

Whilst I am prepared to accept that a full length 373 may be unsuitable for WCML running, I have never suggested that they be used on XC routes.

The urgent need is to release VWC Voyagers running under the wires so that passengers on non wired routes can have their misery alleviated.

It would appear the general consensus is that the operational convenience of TOCs trumps passenger misery.

 

[tbtc]

The urgent need is to release VWC Voyagers running under the wires so that passengers on non wired routes can have their misery alleviated

As a pro-electrification enthusiast who has stood on XC services more times than he'd like to recall, I'm all for cascading the VTWC Voyagers to XC, but what do you replace them with on the WCML?

The London - Birmingham - Wolverhampton - Glasgow/ Edinburgh services require 125mph top speed, and they require tilt.

At the moment, there's nothing being built to UK gauge that suits those requirements. And, given how busy the WCML is, there's not scope to slow services down by running trains that don't tilt.

Blame Virgin, blame Railtrack, blame whoever (for the fact that 125mph requires tilting stock on the WCML), but there's no easy solution here.

And, with HS2 on the distant horizon, I can't see enough "will" to change things anytime soon.

Not great, but it's where we are - unless anyone else has A Cunning Plan?

 

[adamedwards]

I wonder if new Pendolini could be justified as follows:

New trains built (as I see no reason why a ready design cannot be built in Italy) but also able to use third rail.
Fleet used initially to cascade out some Voyagers to Cross Country (or to enable Holyhead - Chester London to go hourly).
When HS2 comes along these trains move to services from Manchester and the north east to Bournemouth running to Birmingham (I am assuming Midland Mainline electrification right through to Leeds plus Derby to Birmingham) but then via Milton Keynes and the East West route (which is being built electrified) to Oxford. Then use GWR electrification to Basingstoke and then third rail to Bournemouth.
This releases more Voyagers to other Cross Country routes pending fleet replacement circa 2030.

 

[najaB]

The urgent need is to release VWC Voyagers running under the wires so that passengers on non wired routes can have their misery alleviated.

I don't disagree with you, but the 373s aren't the answer.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The urgent need is to release VWC Voyagers running under the wires so that passengers on non wired routes can have their misery alleviated.
It would appear the general consensus is that the operational convenience of TOCs trumps passenger misery.

The DfT doesn't agree with you, or they would not have given Arriva a 3-year extension on XC, with only marginal changes in the fleet.
The ICWC/HS2 combined franchise decision puts everything off for another year, and it's even less likely that whoever wins will order new stock to replace Voyagers on the WCML (until HS2 starts).
No change until 2019 (at least).

 

[furnessvale]

The DfT doesn't agree with you, or they would not have given Arriva a 3-year extension on XC, with only marginal changes in the fleet.
The ICWC/HS2 combined franchise decision puts everything off for another year, and it's even less likely that whoever wins will order new stock to replace Voyagers on the WCML (until HS2 starts).
No change until 2019 (at least).

Everything you have said AFTER the word I have highlighted seems to agree with what I said!

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I don't see why there is so much hostility about voyagers operating under the wires to Scotland?? It's not like the wires aren't being used is it? Seeing as the bulk of traffic is electric Pendolinos.

To add a personal opinion, I would much prefer a voyager to a Pendo anyday! And if I'm ever venturing up/down the WCML I'll opt to use a voyager service.

 

[davehsug]

I was surprised to be greeted by a 2 car DMU for the 8.22 Wolverhampton to Birmingham New street on Sunday 6th November. Hardly a shortage of electric sets on a Sunday morning & the train was crowded with many standing!

 

[Taunton]

Seemingly forgotten now is a proposal some years ago that nearly came off to order additional pantograph transformer cars for the Voyager fleet. As Voyagers have electric transmission anyway with the diesels driving alternators this would have involved receiving 25Kv, transforming it and passing it along the cars, enabling the units to run on electric rather than diesel power on their substantial wired sections. It should have been a win-win approach, as it also inserted a sorely-needed additional car of standard class seating into each unit.

I understand that Bombardier had the engineering design all worked up until the DfT blocked the provisional budget for it. Things weren't helped by the minister of the time just having assumed Bombardier would build them at Derby, when they said they would be built in Belgium, as all the Voyager units had been previously, political interest was lost. It would have benefited not only the West Coast, but also Edinburgh-Doncaster legs of Cross Country and even, if extended to the Meridians, Bedford to St Pancras on the MML.

 

[hibtastic]

I believe that Voyagers operate the first two southbound VWC services to Euston from Edinburgh because they are required to go around the Edinburgh South Suburban line from Polmadie to approach Waverley from the East due to lack of paths in the morning into Waverley from the west. I think the Edinburgh services are Pendos for the rest of the day barring one northbound Voyager in the afternoon.

 

[swt_passenger]

Seemingly forgotten now is a proposal some years ago...

I don't think it's that forgotten actually, it gets brought up in discussions in the rolling stock forum quite often, possibly a few times year...

Using the key word "Thor" in the forum's search box reveals quite a huge number of posts...

 

[AnonymousUser1]

As has been discussed ad nausem, 373s aren't suitable for XC's routes. They were barely suitable for GR's routes.

don;t go upsetting the kings of hobbies with facts .... they might spill their weak lemon drink

 

[furnessvale]

don;t go upsetting the kings of hobbies with facts .... they might spill their weak lemon drink

Where have you been for the past week?

As the person to whom najaB was aiming his original comment, I have to point out that it was many days ago that I corrected his misapprehension that there was any suggestion of 373s working on XC routes

 

[najaB]

As the person to whom najaB was aiming his original comment, I have to point out that it was many days ago that I corrected his misapprehension that there was any suggestion of 373s working on XC routes

True. Though lack of tilt and longer dwell times makes them no better suited to WCML operation either.