Diesel for trains

[Joshapple23]

AFAK TOC's buy the diesel for their trains, does that put companies like gWr at a disadvantage Vs a TOC like GTR/ Southeastern?

 

[Dr Hoo]

AFAK TOC's buy the diesel for their trains, does that put companies like gWr at a disadvantage Vs a TOC like GTR/ Southeastern?

As a starting point surely all operators ‘buy’ their ‘fuel’, whether diesel or traction electricity. Maintenance costs for differently powered stock also have to be considered as part of the overall equation.

 

[Purple Train]

Indeed. I seem to recall Freightliner found their electric stock too expensive.

 

[172007]

As i understand it all operators pay the same amount for electric as Network Rail Supplies the electric as they have a long term contract. Now the massive, enourmous snag is. When the wind is blowing and electric consumers are being given free electric the railway is still locked into paying the contract ratr. This weekend is a prime example.

I suspect the Class 99 / 8xx and to a degree the Class 93 this autumn and spring will kickstart a debate on who can source railway traction electric. Network rail should/must be made a DNO or Designated Network Operator and work the same as National Grid or South West Power. Surely at some point GBrF will go to the competition authorities with there attornies and await a defence.

 

[Bald Rick]

NR is the largest single consumer of electricity in the country.

 

[172007]

NR is the largest single consumer of electricity in the country.

And is not overly good distributing it too. How many electric trains can run north of weaver Jct at one time, Class 90s in pairs with traction motors isolated so they are limited on electric draw. What a mess.

 

[Bald Rick]

And is not overly good distributing it too. How many electric trains can run north of weaver Jct at one time, Class 90s in pairs with traction motors isolated so they are limited on electric draw. What a mess.

That a matter of funding. NR is not a funder. If a funder decides to pay for additional power supply capacity, then it happens, as has been shown all over the network.

 

[172007]

That a matter of funding. NR is not a funder. If a funder decides to pay for additional power supply capacity, then it happens, as has been shown all over the network.

Thats my my point. They are a DNO in affect. They should not be looking for funding, they should be providing the means to supply electric to the end consumer through s
transmission charges. This is the same reason why alternative generation and battery farms and electic car charging hubs wait years to be connnected at times.

 

[Starmill]

Thats my my point. They are a DNO in affect. They should not be looking for funding, they should be providing the means to supply electric to the end consumer through s
transmission charges. This is the same reason why alternative generation and battery farms and electic car charging hubs wait years to be connnected at times.

Don't DNOs have a special statutory duty that Network Rail lacks? So for this to work they'd need to be given an additional duty.

 

[Ashley Hill]

How will the price increase in Diesel affect TOCs? Will it eventually be passed onto the passenger?

 

[168lover]

How will the price increase in Diesel affect TOCs? Will it eventually be passed onto the passenger?

From the heritage rail industry the cost of red diesel which we use in our locos skyrocketed back in March when the middle east kicked off but it's settled back down to normal now

 

[Class 170101]

And is not overly good distributing it too. How many electric trains can run north of weaver Jct at one time, Class 90s in pairs with traction motors isolated so they are limited on electric draw. What a mess.

Its not a problem specific around / north of Weaver Jn Class 90s do this on the GEML / NLL so I suspect its pretty much standard for them.

 

[renegademaster]

When the wind is blowing and electric consumers are being given free electric the railway is still locked into paying the contract ratr. This weekend is a prime example.

On the same basis they aren't going to be paying 400% over average during low wind/low solar periods like someone on an uncapped variable tariff will be (remember consumer tariffs , even octopus get the worst peaks subsidised away, and industrial users don't)

 

[contrex]

NR is the largest single consumer of electricity in the country.

When I was given a stack of 'Trains Illustrated' (called 'Modern Railways' from January 1962) by my cousin in the early 1960s, one of them had an article about railway electricity use, illustrated by a black-and-white photo of a 4-SUB, the caption saying that BR Southern Region was the CEGB's biggest customer.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As i understand it all operators pay the same amount for electric as Network Rail Supplies the electric as they have a long term contract. Now the massive, enourmous snag is. When the wind is blowing and electric consumers are being given free electric the railway is still locked into paying the contract ratr. This weekend is a prime example.

Yes but they get a substantially better rate overall and operators get cost certainty as the for years ahead.

I suspect the Class 99 / 8xx and to a degree the Class 93 this autumn and spring will kickstart a debate on who can source railway traction electric. Network rail should/must be made a DNO or Designated Network Operator and work the same as National Grid or South West Power. Surely at some point GBrF will go to the competition authorities with there attornies and await a defence.

A freight operator wouldn't have the buying power that NR has but NR has offered freight users cost certainty for this financial year where their annual demand is less than 450GWh.

The tariff that Network Rail has locked on behalf of all non-buying group and charter operators and Network Rail’s own usage for 2026/27 is 16.561 pence per kWh. We consider this tariff to be reasonable, despite the fact that it can be difficult to negotiate tariffs where consumption demand is complex to predict. This tariff recovers the energy cost only (including the various levies and energy related costs described above) it does not include delivery tariffs, which would be charged separately on an ESTA by ESTA basis. The national average is 4.565p/kWh for 2026/27.

This is extracted from https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/EC4T-Freight-tariff-letter-2026-27.pdf

Want would be interesting to know is whether the government are offering NR the concession there making to energy intensive industries where they are having 100% exemption from the indirect costs of green levies (Contracts for Difference (CfD), the Renewables Obligation (RO), Feed-in Tariffs (FiT), and Capacity Market charges ) which is forecast to reduce unit charges by 20%.