Did the Bournemouth/Manchester service exist pre-diesel?

[1018509]

If it did were the locomotives run round the train at Reading or did another locomotive take over.

 

[Wyvern]

Yes it was the Pines Express.

I dont know about when it went through Reading - probably an engine change?

Until the closure of the Somerset and Dorset line, it went via Bath Green Park.

I used to catch it every Saturday as far as Gloucester Eastgate where I changed to the Devonian. (In those days it diverted around Birmingham)

 

[Metroland]

Yep was the pines express, and went via the Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway until 1966, then was diesel hauled via Reading. The named train survived until the voyagers.

 

[exile]

Not sure about that (ie still being called the Pines Express after 66), there's no mention of the name in the 1967 timetable.

 

[tirphil]

In steam days, what type of locomotives used to work the service?

 

[RobShipway]

I have a DVD, called the The Pine Express and it shows the trains starting from Manchester Picadilly with Mk2 coaches hauled behind a Class 87 until Birmingham New Street when a Class 47 takes over the reins down to Reading and on to Bournemouth and on to Poole.

This was filmed just before the Voyagers took over and in the commentary it is mentioned that at times the pines through the 1990's was done by HST's. In fact I can confirm this as I lived in Bournemouth from 1991 - 1996 abd went up to Birmingham on it a few times. The HST was either stabled within the siding in between the up and down line in Bournemouth station or within the sidings just outside Poole station.

 

[Rugd1022]

In steam days, what type of locomotives used to work the service?

I think from Manchester it would have been something like a Black 5 then there was a loco change at Oxford where a Bullied Pacific would take over. Not sure if it was actually booked to call at Reading though as I've seen photos of it with the Southern loco on going round the west chord of the Reading triangle. It was definitely routed away from the S&D line in '62 by the Western Region, who'd taken over that line back in '58.

Just remembered - I'm sure I've seen photos of it at Oxford with a WR Hall up front before the SR Bullied took over.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think from Manchester it would have been something like a Black 5 then there was a loco change at Oxford where a Bullied Pacific would take over. Not sure if it was actually booked to call at Reading though as I've seen photos of it with the Southern loco on going round the west chord of the Reading triangle. It was definitely routed away from the S&D line in '62 by the Western Region, who'd taken over that line back in '58.

Just remembered - I'm sure I've seen photos of it at Oxford with a WR Hall up front before the SR Bullied took over.

When diverted away from the S&D it initially ran via Reading West (avoiding reversal at Reading General) and then via Oxford, Birmingham Snow Hill, Wolverhampton Low Level, Wellington, Market Drayton and Nantwich to Crewe. I used it once!

When the Wellington-Market Drayton-Nantwich line closed it ran via Shrewsbury.

It only ran via Birmingham New St, Wolverhampton HL and Stafford when the electrification through the West Mids completed in 1967.

I don't remember it ever being steam hauled - class 47 I think or possibly a Western, to Crewe (electric on to Manchester).
But there were SR-WR trains running the route before this (eg Bournemouth-Birkenhead) which would change steam locos, usually at Oxford.

 

[Oswyntail]

Westerns were certainly used as they were introduced, as were the Brush 4s. IIRC, the Pines was something of a regional football, with none of the three relevant ones wanting to take responsibility, resulting in frequent re-routing at timetable changes.

 

[Saltleyman]

In steam days, what type of locomotives used to work the service?

Mainly ex LMS "Black 5's" or perhaps a "Jubilee" in the mid 1960's it may well have been a "Royal Scot"( based at 21A Saltley) from Walsall on Summer Saturdays which was re-engined at Walsall and ran via Sutton Park, Camp Hill then Kings Norton, Bromsgrove and Gloucester to Bath Green Park where the train reversed and went forward via the S&D until 1966.

 

[Welshman]

Peter Smith's "Mendips Enginemen" [1972] and "Footplate over the Mendips" [1978] [both Oxford Publishing Co], give interesting reminiscences of the workings of traffic over the S & D, including the "Pines Express" until it was diverted away in September 1962.

The "Pines" itself seems to have been hauled on this section by a variety of locomotives at various times, including Class 2's, Black Fives, West Country Pacifics, an occasional Horwich "Crab" and settling-down with BR Standard Class 5 4-6-0s from 1954 to 1962.

Towards its latter days on the S & D Class 9F 2-10-0s were even seen on this train, removing the need for double-heading on busy summer Saturdays. Indeed, No. 92220 Evening Star, hauled the last up and down "Pines" on 8th September 1962.

 

[junglejames]

Not sure about that (ie still being called the Pines Express after 66), there's no mention of the name in the 1967 timetable.

Definitely had the Pines Express in Virgins pre voyager days. Was normally a 47, and most timetables never called at Reading and instead used the avoiding curve west of the depot. Certainly the Northbound did anyway.

 

[Metroland]

Oddly for Virgin (as they seem to really like PR) is they abolished all names at the time - The Sussex Scot, The Devon Scot and The Cornishman also succumbed, when Arriva took over there was a theory they might reinstate some of the names, but this never happened.

Named trains do of course still run on the ECML, WCML, MML and GWML, but I suppose the problem with modern railway, is formation wise they tend to be the same as any other train on the route, and a lot of the time the calling pattern is much the same. So passengers really don't tend to notice!

In Steam days, express trains used to be an institution, with unique formations, headboards and occasionally carriage boards, fixed timetables that went on for years, and on some lines (especially the ECML, GWML and MML) near non-stop or non stop running. Along with publicity of the time, some trains were household, or near household names, such as the Cornish Rivera or Flying Scotsman.

 

[tirphil]

Many thanks to those that replied to my query. Much appreciated.

 

[Wyvern]

There is another book: Austin, S., (1998) ''Portrait of the Pines Express,'' Ian Allan Publishing

In S&D days, I am told there would be changes of crews at Bath and Walsall, or later at Bath and New Street. Sometimes the crew change would be at Gloucester.

 

[kennethw]

the whole point of diverting the Pines Express from the S&D was the desire to deselise the service, as the S&D would need upgrade to the infrastructure to cope with diesel traction, the money was not spent and the Pines was diverted. Without the Pines express the S&D was then for the chop under Beeching like the former LSWR west of Salisbury without the Atlantic Coast Express

 

[Crapper]

In steam days, what type of locomotives used to work the service?

Steam engines?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the whole point of diverting the Pines Express from the S&D was the desire to deselise the service, as the S&D would need upgrade to the infrastructure to cope with diesel traction, the money was not spent and the Pines was diverted. Without the Pines express the S&D was then for the chop under Beeching like the former LSWR west of Salisbury without the Atlantic Coast Express

Sorry, the above is just rubbish. The line did not require upgrading to cope with diesel traction, the Pines was diverted away purely as a precursor to the lines closure. You gave the real reason for the lines closure, it had nothing to do with the line needing upgrading for diesel.

 

[blackfive460]

Sorry, the above is just rubbish. The line did not require upgrading to cope with diesel traction, the Pines was diverted away purely as a precursor to the lines closure. You gave the real reason for the lines closure, it had nothing to do with the line needing upgrading for diesel.

Spot on.
And don't forget, the Pines was not the only through service to run via the S&D. On a summer Saturday the line would be almost full to capacity with holiday trains to and from the North of England and Midlands.
When the WR took over all these were diverted away from the line to help strengthen the case for closure.

 

[exile]

Spot on.
And don't forget, the Pines was not the only through service to run via the S&D. On a summer Saturday the line would be almost full to capacity with holiday trains to and from the North of England and Midlands.
When the WR took over all these were diverted away from the line to help strengthen the case for closure.

Conspiracy theory alert!

According to OS Nock, even by 1956 the S and D was not as busy in summer as a few years before. In any case it just doesn't make any economic sense to keep a steeply graded line full of curves and with single line sections, with no major town on its route, because it was reasonably busy for 6 weeks out of 52.