Diamond Jubilee Train Services

[Greenback]

And how much does negative PR cost in terms of future investment? The (unjust) general perception appears to be that rail is a mode of transport that is expensive, inflexible, inefficient and downright unfriendly, to be used only under duress. This is fanned by stories (of whatever accuracy) such as today's and the Guardian one about fares. And we have seen what happens when the government of the day decides that the stories reflect public opinion - Beeching. Today could have been a showcase for what the railways can do, regardless of potential cost or re jigged maintenance schedules. Instead the industry has been seen to shoot itself in the foot.

You are right, but the industry is not really interested in the bigger picture. Does First, for example, really care about how much investment there might be in Network Rail Control Period 8? I don't think so! If the government pulled the plug on rail, First would simply find other opportunities to get into, or simply concentrate on their bus interests.

And therein lies the problem.

 

[MikeWh]

I think MikeWh has raised a very interesting point about whether this is a portent for the Olympics. Are the plans robust enough to deal with the crowds and the issues that may occur, or will the system be so stretched that it won't be able to cope?

Just found this: http://www.southeasternrailway.co.u...ing-london-bridge-station-this-sunday-3-june/

This Sunday Network Rail is rehearsing its operating plans for London Bridge station during the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. The rehearsal will affect how passengers can enter and exit the station.

Access to the station will only be via the forecourt/station concourse on Railway Approach / London Bridge Street.

Barriered access systems will be in place and queuing within these areas may be required. Passengers are advised to allow extra time to board their trains.

Joiner Street and the Vaults will be exit only, and you will not be able to enter the station from Tooley Street or St Thomas Street via Joiner Street.

Access to London Underground will only be via Duke Street Hill. No access from escalators by Platforms 1-6 or Platforms 8-16.

Please allow extra time for your journey at London Bridge.

I hope they've learned some lessons.

 

[6Gman]

I think MikeWh has raised a very interesting point about whether this is a portent for the Olympics. Are the plans robust enough to deal with the crowds and the issues that may occur, or will the system be so stretched that it won't be able to cope?

And ironic that on this very forum a few weeks ago there was criticism of XC for planning through trains to Weymouth for the Olympics !!

Damned if you do; damned if you don't!

 

[crewmeal]

It was obvious that today's celebrations were going attract people in their thousands. Planning for it has been on the cards for the past 2 years. What a shame that TOC's couldn't organise something better than what has been experienced today. An absolute farce.

There was better organisation for evacuees during WW2 than what happened today.

 

[OxtedL]

There was better organisation for evacuees during WW2 than what happened today.

Alas, the management changed a couple of years back.

 

[IanXC]

From the sounds of things the TOCs have thrown as much stock at today as they could realistically justify. There's clearly been strengthening as a number of posters have mentioned. Demand forecasting for today will have been pretty hard, and the weather today will mean fewer people went to the coast, probably changing their plans as late as this morning to head into central London.

TOCs do take notice, on my local line over the last few years we've seen increase in Sunday services from some single 153s for strengthening to now where all the key departures to and from the coast are 2x 158.

Yes it does sound like some things didn't go to plan, particularly at London Bridge but under the circumstances it seems to have been a good effort.

 

[iphone76]

I'm glad I didn't risk coming upto London today. (Despite what looked like a fantastic day) I was going to until I saw on twitter people were having trouble getting on to London trains out here in Wickford earlier this morning. Here is what the GA website is reporting for Essex bound trains tonight.

1730 Liverpool Street to Norwich - Services full and standing from London Liverpool Street.

17.32 Liverpool Street to Clacton - Services full and standing from London Liverpool Street.

17.45 Liverpool Street to Southend - Services full and standing from London Liverpool Street.

18.02 Liverpool Street to Ipswich - Services full and standing from London Liverpool Street.

18.15 Liverpool Street to Southend - Services full and standing from London Liverpool Street.

 

[ushawk]

Gatwick Express services from London are currently additionally calling at Clapham Jct and East Croydon because of the crowds. Most Southern Sussex Coast services are 12 car 377s with most Brighton services 10 car 442s, a 460 is also out on the Gatwick Express today.

Most Southern metro services are lengthened to 8 coaches too with a mix of 377s, 455s and 456s - cant say they havent planned for it, as these are the maximum lengths they can have on these routes.

 

[philjo]

The onset of the heavy rain probably didn't help as it would mean most people wanting to leave London early at the same time - if it was nice they would probably have stayed longer and staggered their journeys home over the evening.

The Chiltern incident leaving passengers behind on platfroms this morning was mentoned on several Radio 4 news bulletins this morning

 

[exile]

Many TOCs have lots of empty stock sitting in sidings on Sundays. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to use some of this to provide extra services.

 

[VP185]

Why put an event of this size on a Sunday? Isn't it well known that most railway companies, through the recent disputes at London Midland, rely on drivers volunteering to work on Sunday? You can't force someone to work, TOC's can only work with the resources they have available... train wise as well as staff.

FGW managed to run 5 additional services into London this morning and nearly all LTV diagrams were 5-car units. There are also additional services this evening.

 

[merlodlliw]

In a tradiitonal business, the very idea that there would be additional customers, even if the majority just bringing some friends and family along, would be sufficient for them to try and put ona godo show to generate some repeat business.

For some reason, that does not apply to the railway. If, as I suspect and you say, it is to do with a lack of financial incentive that just shows that the whole insutry needs to be reformed, with longer franchises and more reward for growing the business.

ATWs 15 year franchise is an example not to be followed, it is only two thirds used, & now they are trying to impress how good they are with spin,the first ten years,is it that long was only a tick box, we run nothing more unless someone pays.

Bob

 

[Greenback]

Many TOCs have lots of empty stock sitting in sidings on Sundays. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to use some of this to provide extra services.

Then we ar eback to the points raised earlier about the additional costs in running extra trains not being ocvered by additional revenue.

ATWs 15 year franchise is an example not to be followed, it is only two thirds used, & now they are trying to impress how good they are with spin,the first ten years,is it that long was only a tick box, we run nothing more unless someone pays.

Bob

Indeed, the ATW no growth franchise has been particularly poor in terms of the company not wanting to pay for anything that wa snot in the contract.

However, they did manage to put out a six car DMU during to Fishguard during the ash cloud episode in 2010!

 

[ushawk]

Why put an event of this size on a Sunday? Isn't it well known that most railway companies, through the recent disputes at London Midland, rely on drivers volunteering to work on Sunday? You can't force someone to work, TOC's can only work with the resources they have available... train wise as well as staff.

Well, we have been given 2 bank holidays so why it couldnt of been on the Monday, with the concert tonight instead ive no idea.

But then it would be exactly the same for the Sundays during the Olympics - or is it different ?

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

To be fair, the passenger numbers for a Sunday were enormous, far greater than I have ever seen, and it probably didn't help that a lot of lines were subject to engineering works in preparation for the Olympics, so even my 8 car was wedged. But while trains were lengthened I was not aware of any additional services.

But for the games themselves, the engineering works should be complete and the network fully open, and there should also be additional services. The other thing to bear in mind is that the numbers of people attending the games is limited to the number of tickets sold, whereas today's beano was uncontrolled and open to everyone. Perhaps we're being too quick to worry.

O L Leigh

And it wouldn't be suprising if say, Abellio called down some Merseyrail/Northern stock to provide relief trains, and FSR/FTPX coming down to supplement FCC/FGW. Surely that will be something taking place in the Olympics in some fashion?

 

[Wath Yard]

Why put an event of this size on a Sunday? Isn't it well known that most railway companies, through the recent disputes at London Midland, rely on drivers volunteering to work on Sunday? You can't force someone to work, TOC's can only work with the resources they have available... train wise as well as staff.

Seriously? The Queen's Diamond Jubilee celebrations should take into account train drivers' contracts? :roll:

Perhaps she should have been forced to abdicate last month then none of this would have happened. Sorted.

 

[crewmeal]

we have been given 2 bank holidays so why it couldnt of been on the Monday

So now we have to plan major events like this around the TOC's? Should we plan events during the week when more staff are available? Should we bribe them to work during the Olympics to help transport of people around the London area?

Maybe I'm wrong, but with 53 days to go before the start of the games I haven't seen TOC's advertising extra services with extended trains. Come to think of it what extra facilities have been provided to help transport people around the various events? The only thing I've seen is the departure tent at Heathrow's staff car park being erected to help alleviate the crowds after the games have finished.

I see there are engineering works planned in the form of 'late night improvements' on various Virgin routes throughout the period of the Olympics.

 

[142094]

What is the price difference in running either a single unit or two doubled up? I was under the impression that track access only applied to a single consist and not per unit, so the only extra cost would be staff (if needed on both units) and power (either extra diesel or higher leccy costs due to more power drawn from the overheads).

 

[OxtedL]

crewmeal, Wath Yard:

I think that the argument in use here is that it's still fairly difficult to travel on a Sunday, and transport isn't particularly geared up to deal with major events on Sundays at the moment. Thus it would seem sensible not to run an event which requires large numbers of people to move around on a Sunday.

You may be over-reacting to this suggestion which is sensible although rather kills the point of holding anything on a Sunday.

 

[Failed Unit]

For interest, does anyone know as a % how much more a 8 car set would cost to operate vice a 4?

You pay the same for the staff, but is it twice as much? 25% more or hard to tell?

Someone asked the same q. 2 mins ago, sorry.

 

[iphone76]

Should we bribe them to work during the Olympics to help transport of people around the London area?

I thought we were.

 

[455driver]

Many TOCs have lots of empty stock sitting in sidings on Sundays. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to use some of this to provide extra services.

Okay you have got a train, big deal.
Who pays for the driver and guard (assuming you can get some to work their days off because there are not any sat "spare"), fuel (whether diesel or electric), what times do you run the extra services because the paths (which also have to be paid for) have to be agreed with NR, the other TOCs on the route etc up to 12 weeks advance.

You cant just pull a train out of a siding and run a service!

 

[142094]

For interest, does anyone know as a % how much more a 8 car set would cost to operate vice a 4?

You pay the same for the staff, but is it twice as much? 25% more or hard to tell?

Someone asked the same q. 2 mins ago, sorry.

Great minds think alike!

I've heard the cost issue being raised before, but want to know how much it actually is to provide extra capacity where the units are free and available for use.

 

[A-driver]

What is the price difference in running either a single unit or two doubled up? I was under the impression that track access only applied to a single consist and not per unit, so the only extra cost would be staff (if needed on both units) and power (either extra diesel or higher leccy costs due to more power drawn from the overheads).

It's not that simple. All has to be diagramed and lets say you want an extra 8 car service instead of 4. The 4 cars originally booked are in Selhurst depot with the additional 4 at Brighton. You need extra paths to get the Brighton coaches up to Selhurst and joined. Then the spare 4 coaches are needed in Brighton to start tomorrows services. That means they need to get them back down south after service. That's at least 2 new paths not just to be paid for but to be found. Additional drivers to drive the empties, add into the mix engineering works and it may not be possible to get them there or back in time.

Logistics on railways are more complicated than simply 'there'd are empty coaches in the depot so use them'.

 

[Wath Yard]

crewmeal, Wath Yard:

I think that the argument in use here is that it's still fairly difficult to travel on a Sunday, and transport isn't particularly geared up to deal with major events on Sundays at the moment. Thus it would seem sensible not to run an event which requires large numbers of people to move around on a Sunday.

You may be over-reacting to this suggestion which is sensible although rather kills the point of holding anything on a Sunday.

It isn't sensible in the slightest. The country, its population and its events do not revolve around the railway. The job of the railway is to transport people to where they want to go, when they want to go.

I'm sure a lot of planning did go into running services for the event, and if vast numbers of people want to travel to a certain location at a certain time then there will be overcrowding and some problems will occur. However, to suggest that everything shoud be arranged for the convenience of the railway, and bear in mind many also said this about the FA Cup Final and probably many other events, is totally ridiculous.

 

[ushawk]

So now we have to plan major events like this around the TOC's? Should we plan events during the week when more staff are available? Should we bribe them to work during the Olympics to help transport of people around the London area?

Maybe I'm wrong, but with 53 days to go before the start of the games I haven't seen TOC's advertising extra services with extended trains. Come to think of it what extra facilities have been provided to help transport people around the various events? The only thing I've seen is the departure tent at Heathrow's staff car park being erected to help alleviate the crowds after the games have finished.

I see there are engineering works planned in the form of 'late night improvements' on various Virgin routes throughout the period of the Olympics.

My post had nothing to do with having it on the Monday as more staff on the trains would be available, i was just saying it in general.

 

[Failed Unit]

Okay you have got a train, big deal.
Who pays for the driver and guard (assuming you can get some to work their days off because there are not any sat "spare"), fuel (whether diesel or electric), what times do you run the extra services because the paths (which also have to be paid for) have to be agreed with NR, the other TOCs on the route etc up to 12 weeks advance.

You cant just pull a train out of a siding and run a service!

A lot of the critism is that Tocs don't run trains at the maximum length. You have 3 cars rammed on a Sunday when a 6 car staff wise would not require more. Sunday's tend to have a reduced frequency anyway and all the trains are not required for maintenance.

Take Scotrails endinburgh - Glasgow

Monday - friday peak 4 trains per hour - 6 car each = 16 3 coach trains
Sunday 2 trains per hour - 3 car each = 4 3 coach trains.

Are the other 12 really having exams?

On this route no extra paths are needed as the depots are at the ends of the route anyway. I understand sending an extra 3 car to Aberdeen may be more complex.

 

[dk1]

Sundays are always a pain traincrew wise as you are limited by the rostering. Early to late week fine but those late on Saturday then early Monday are almost impossible to diagram apart from a middle shift & then again that depends on if they want to. This is why we have all the enhanced pay during the Olympics as an additional carrot.

 

[142094]

Logistics on railways are more complicated than simply 'there'd are empty coaches in the depot so use them'.

It of course depends on which depot a set is at, and yes you are right the diagramming etc would have to be changed to make sure the set is in the right places at the right times.

In simple terms, I'll use an example I'm familiar with. Heaton depot in Newcastle provides nearly all of the units for Northern in the North East, with only a few stabled elsewhere at night. This generally means that in evenings and at weekends there are spare units at the depot which are not undergoing maintenance and cleaning, which could be easily added to an existing working with a couple of extra shunt moves at the depot. The question would then be, what is the additional cost of adding say an extra 156 onto an exisiting diagram, in terms of track access, fuel and staffing (staffing will be variable due to a lack of corridor connections on certain stock so I'm also taking that into account as well).

 

[DownSouth]

The core of any problems with low capacity of major events would be down to the half-arsed method used for re-privatisation in the 1990s. The system exists somewhere between a properly funded public transport service and a privately operated railway.

A system where the operators would be paid only to run trains and staff stations by the Government could help avoid any capacity problems for major events. The Government would simply tell the operator to put on extra/longer trains and pay the operator extra to do so, and in turn the extra revenue from casual users (many of whom could be potential regular users in the future) could come back to the Government. The private operator would have a financial incentive to put on the extra/longer trains because they would not be paid extra without running them.

Seriously? The Queen's Diamond Jubilee celebrations should take into account train drivers' contracts? :roll:

Perhaps she should have been forced to abdicate last month then none of this would have happened. Sorted.

You would be looking at coronation celebrations then