Despatch procedure SWR

[74A]

Travelled on a Windsor train from Waterloo yesterday I was surprised to find the doors released immediately the train came to a halt. Previously with SWT the guard would get out of the train and check it is on the platform before doors are released.

I assume this is a new method of working now SWR has taken over ? Should save 5-10 seconds at each stop. Quite a saving over the course of the day.

 

[Lrd]

Some guards release the doors instantly, they could be at the rear of the train with head out the window to check the train is fully platformed. They've done this on SWT (and other TOCs) for ages, may not be the correct procedure but it happens.

Certainly not a SWR thing.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Travelled on a Windsor train from Waterloo yesterday I was surprised to find the doors released immediately the train came to a halt. Previously with SWT the guard would get out of the train and check it is on the platform before doors are released.

I assume this is a new method of working now SWR has taken over ? Should save 5-10 seconds at each stop. Quite a saving over the course of the day.

No, I am not a guard but this is what I have been told by a guard's trainer. As you stated, guards would open their door first, step outside, and then release all doors. This is standard procedure. There are some guards who don't follow standard procedure such as what you have mentioned even on the days of SWT- this is nothing new. If they are caught by a guard's manager, they would be disciplined. Also, I'm wondering what station in particular are you referring to. I would be shocked if it was Waterloo, Clapham Junction or any of the big stations. From my personal experience, I have seen some guards take a more 'relaxing' approach to the despatch procedure at smaller stations.

As I say, I am not a guard. However, I don't see any reason why the despatch procedure would change.

 

[vikingdriver]

No, I am not a guard but this is what I have been told by a guard's trainer. As you stated, guards would open their door first, step outside, and then release all doors. This is standard procedure. There are some guards who don't follow standard procedure such as what you have mentioned even on the days of SWT- this is nothing new. If they are caught by a guard's manager, they would be disciplined. Also, I'm wondering what station in particular are you referring to. I would be shocked if it was Waterloo, Clapham Junction or any of the big stations. From my personal experience, I have seen some guards take a more 'relaxing' approach to the despatch procedure at smaller stations.

As I say, I am not a guard. However, I don't see any reason why the despatch procedure would change.

Pretty sure the guards have been briefed in the past that a full release can be made if you are confident of the trains position in the platform, without going through the local door first method. Of course should it go wrong, on your head be it!

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Pretty sure the guards have been briefed in the past that a full release can be made if you are confident of the trains position in the platform, without going through the local door first method. Of course should it go wrong, on your head be it!

Oh ok, thanks. I didn't realise that and maybe some of the information I have is out of date. The other thing is that guards on SWT/SWR tend to be in the middle of the train or elsewhere (but not the back) so this is probably why the local door method is preferred.

Out of curiosity, if it did go wrong, would the driver receive any blame? I'm assuming if it did go wrong, it would be because the driver did not stop at the right place. For example, the driver might have forgotten it is an 8 coach train and he/she stopped at the 4 coach marker.
But of course, I'm not trying to shift the blame from guard to driver as guard is ultimately at fault for not following procedure.

 

[TEW]

No requirement to open local door, get out and check on SWR. Was the same on SWT. The guard can release the doors straight away provided they are satisfied the train is fully accommodated.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Out of curiosity, if it did go wrong, would the driver receive any blame? I'm assuming if it did go wrong, it would be because the driver did not stop at the right place. For example, the driver might have forgotten it is an 8 coach train and he/she stopped at the 4 coach marker.
But of course, I'm not trying to shift the blame from guard to driver as guard is ultimately at fault for not following procedure.

This is why the correct procedure is for the guard to physically step onto the platform and confirm that the train is properly accommodated at the platform. This need to step out is a way of guarding against stopping short or even a wrong side release (by the guard).

 

[PudseyBearHST]

This is why the correct procedure is for the guard to physically step onto the platform and confirm that the train is properly accommodated at the platform. This need to step out is a way of guarding against stopping short or even a wrong side release (by the guard).

Thank you. Yes, plenty of guards do follow this procedure but not all. As some have suggested, it is not a requirement to follow this procedure but perhaps this is the preferred/recommended method and taught by trainers which probably answers the question as to why some do it and why some don't.

 

[Matt Taylor]

If I'm at the rear doors of a 12 car I don't need to step on the platform to see if the train is fully accommodated, similarly if I'm in the rear cab of the front unit of a 12 car at Woking I know exactly what should be next to the cab if the train is correctly positioned-it's useful route knowledge.

 

[43096]

Thank you. Yes, plenty of guards do follow this procedure but not all. As some have suggested, it is not a requirement to follow this procedure but perhaps this is the preferred/recommended method and taught by trainers which probably answers the question as to why some do it and why some don't.

It certainly was mandated at one point, until they realised it was killing timekeeping as guards got out to mince up and down before releasing the doors. Really, the guard should know where he is on the train and where on the platform he should be for a stop - part of their route knowledge really.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

It certainly was mandated at one point, until they realised it was killing timekeeping as guards got out to mince up and down before releasing the doors. Really, the guard should know where he is on the train and where on the platform he should be for a stop - part of their route knowledge really.

Thank you to you both, 43096 and Matt. And that certainly explains my confusion regarding the 'opening local door first' procedure being mandatory.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Thank you to you both, 43096 and Matt. And that certainly explains my confusion regarding the 'opening local door first' procedure being mandatory.

The extent to which it was mandatory depended on the TOC. After the James Street tragedy Northern took a particularly cautious approach when it tightened up on all procedures relating to the Platform Train Interface. Even at the time it was obvious that not all TOCs reacted in the same way. It also illustrates a wider point that over time some parts of the Rule Book are being "devolved" to individual TOC procedures. And Matt Taylor's point about route knowledge was a point also made by many Northern guards!

 

[3141]

If I'm at the rear doors of a 12 car I don't need to step on the platform to see if the train is fully accommodated, similarly if I'm in the rear cab of the front unit of a 12 car at Woking I know exactly what should be next to the cab if the train is correctly positioned-it's useful route knowledge.

That seems a completely reasonable approach. And I expect you're even more familiar with what you 'd see if you were at the very rear of the train. It probably arises from your personal interest in doing the job as effectively as you can.

It certainly was mandated at one point, until they realised it was killing timekeeping as guards got out to mince up and down before releasing the doors. Really, the guard should know where he is on the train and where on the platform he should be for a stop - part of their route knowledge really.

I think that's overdoing it. It might be true once someone's become fully familiar with every station on the route (see Matt Taylor's post quoted above), but in the earlier parts of a person's career he/she won't be that familiar with every part of every station, and some individuals won't have the sort of outlook that enables someone to develop that sort of grasp of what's going on - but it doesn't mean they can't do the job reliably.

 

[GW43125]

Quick releases often happen here if the guard's already in place. 10
Car platforms mean that if the back of a 5car is in the platform, you're good to release

 

[Monty]

For me it depends on the location, the length of the train and the weather. If I have a 4 car and I stop at Basingstoke it's very easy to tell that I would be fully accommodated. If I had a 12 and was Stopping at Godalming the curviture of the platform is so bad I would be far more cautious before releasing my doors. Same goes for places like Hamble and Shawford where the platforms are very short and in bad weather it could very easy to have a stop short or over run.

 

[HowardGWR]

Interesting. I am wondering what happened in the days of slam door stock and the 'pea-soupers'? We do indeed live in a different world nowadays. I don't remember reports of pax falling into the cess in those days. Perhaps my memory is failing.

 

[Malcolmffc]

For me it depends on the location, the length of the train and the weather. If I have a 4 car and I stop at Basingstoke it's very easy to tell that I would be fully accommodated. If I had a 12 and was Stopping at Godalming the curviture of the platform is so bad I would be far more cautious before releasing my doors. Same goes for places like Hamble and Shawford where the platforms are very short and in bad weather it could very easy to have a stop short or over run.

Out of curiosity, how many times in your career have you had to tell the driver to move forward/reverse as a result of such a check?

 

[Monty]

Out of curiosity, how many times in your career have you had to tell the driver to move forward/reverse as a result of such a check?

I've had 2 stop shorts and a single over run.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When the platform is shorter than the train do guards generally try and use the last door that is supposed to be released as their local door?

 

[PudseyBearHST]

When the platform is shorter than the train do guards generally try and use the last door that is supposed to be released as their local door?

Can't comment on trains with Automatic Selective Door Opening but for SDO to work, you would have to be standing in an appropriate part of the train corresponding to how many coaches you want to release. On the HST on GWR you have 3 options with SDO: All doors front; All doors behind and All doors. So if you wanted to open only the front 7 coaches, you would stand in the 7th coach and choose the option, "All doors front."

 

[JN114]

Can't comment on trains with Automatic Selective Door Opening but for SDO to work, you would have to be standing in an appropriate part of the train corresponding to how many coaches you want to release. On the HST on GWR you have 3 options with SDO: All doors front; All doors behind and All doors. So if you wanted to open only the front 7 coaches, you would stand in the 7th coach and choose the option, "All doors front."

The all doors front/rear is relative to that panel - release will unlock the door you are stood at and all doors forward/rearwards relative to the direction you face when at the panel. SDO system on HSTs has no concept of which is the front or rear of train.

There's also SDO hold, but we're digressing.

 

[theironroad]

For me it depends on the location, the length of the train and the weather. If I have a 4 car and I stop at Basingstoke it's very easy to tell that I would be fully accommodated. If I had a 12 and was Stopping at Godalming the curviture of the platform is so bad I would be far more cautious before releasing my doors. Same goes for places like Hamble and Shawford where the platforms are very short and in bad weather it could very easy to have a stop short or over run.

Sounds like you have no confidence in your driver of their ability to follow the swt/swr driving policy.....

 

[the sniper]

Sounds like you have no confidence in your driver of their ability to follow the swt/swr driving policy.....

It doesn't read like that at all. Nevertheless, the Guard should never be putting their faith in the Driver not making a mistake or getting caught out by the prevailing conditions when it comes to doing the doors. It's completely contrary to the training and responsibility the Guard has for releasing the doors.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

The all doors front/rear is relative to that panel - release will unlock the door you are stood at and all doors forward/rearwards relative to the direction you face when at the panel. SDO system on HSTs has no concept of which is the front or rear of train.

There's also SDO hold, but we're digressing.

Sorry, yes you are absolutely right! I made the assumption the panel was facing the same way as direction of train which is not necessarily true. As you say, SDO is relative to the panel not to direction of the train. In fact, the CDL panel even reminds the guard of this. It says something along the lines of, "Select Doors Ahead means this panel will control the doors in front of you when facing this panel" and vice versa for 'Select Doors Behind.' I don't know why I am explaining this to you because you sound like you are a Train Manager/Guard yourself

 

[pompeyfan]

For me it depends on the location, the length of the train and the weather. If I have a 4 car and I stop at Basingstoke it's very easy to tell that I would be fully accommodated. If I had a 12 and was Stopping at Godalming the curviture of the platform is so bad I would be far more cautious before releasing my doors. Same goes for places like Hamble and Shawford where the platforms are very short and in bad weather it could very easy to have a stop short or over run.

With route knowledge like that, you must be based or have an interest in the PO postcode!

I don't think the comment about not trusting the driver is a fair one, we all have brain farts as humans. In fact it's surprising how many stop short door releases there, which sadly doesn't help the guard grade safety claim. The biggest risk in my opinion though isn't seasonal conditions, because the driver is much more likely to be aware of any WSP and respond with a 2-2, it's the brain lapse when you go from 4 -> 8 or 8 -> 12 (or 5 -> 10)

 

[smilerish]

Out of curiosity, I have a related question...

Are guards trained to watch out of the window as the train departs to check that the train has cleared the platform without any issues? I've noticed that sometimes when I board a train where the guard stands they will do this - they won't lock the door panel until the last car is clear of the platform.

If this is the case, what exactly are they watching out for and what could they possibly do about it once the train is already accelerating?

However, it's not consistent. I'd estimate that the majority of guards don't do this and will talk to you, sell you a ticket, etc. while the train is leaving the platform.

 

[CC 72100]

Sorry, yes you are absolutely right! I made the assumption the panel was facing the same way as direction of train which is not necessarily true. As you say, SDO is relative to the panel not to direction of the train. In fact, the CDL panel even reminds the guard of this. It says something along the lines of, "Select Doors Ahead means this panel will control the doors in front of you when facing this panel" and vice versa for 'Select Doors Behind.' I don't know why I am explaining this to you because you sound like you are a Train Manager/Guard yourself

Talk to the panel, not to the train. There are also some panels that don't follow the standard location ie. At the buffet end of micro-buffet vehicles

 

[CC 72100]

Out of curiosity, I have a related question...

Are guards trained to watch out of the window as the train departs to check that the train has cleared the platform without any issues? I've noticed that sometimes when I board a train where the guard stands they will do this - they won't lock the door panel until the last car is clear of the platform.

If this is the case, what exactly are they watching out for and what could they possibly do about it once the train is already accelerating?

Signal for the driver to stop via the buzzer or stop the train themselves but pulling a passcomm. Frequent use is for customers trying to get off and putting the door on the catch (slam door stock only) or people getting uncomfortably close to the side of the train as it picks up speed.

 

[MartinB1]

Providing the guard is sure the train is stopped correctly, they can release the passenger doors. As long as the guard is on the platform thereafter it's ok. It was changed to this procedure a few years ago.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

 

[dctraindriver]

Sounds like you have no confidence in your driver of their ability to follow the swt/swr driving policy.....

I didn't read it like that. Good on him for thinking about something that could happen and being cautious at places he thinks it's worth being cautious at. You do the same at certain stations particularly low adhesion time. No matter how great a driver you are, circumstances can still muck it up.