• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Derby-Skegness HST

Status
Not open for further replies.

louis97

Established Member
Joined
14 May 2008
Messages
2,147
Location
Derby
It is interregional - Midland to Eastern, and vice-versa on the return. 'S' is, I'm sure, only to be used for class 2 trains to Skegness.

It may be, but as I said it is quite clearly by the head code given classed as regional. As it has run in previous years with the same head codes between Derby and Skegness via Nottingham and return, I'm pretty sure it isn't.

It just means it's come from another region, not necessarily Scotland.

Yes, but in this particular case, it is used for southbound services from Scotland to London.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,933
It might have been used in previous years, but that doesn't make it right ;) . It does seem as though a pretty robust system is gradually being diluted by some planners who neither fully understand it nor have to use it to quickly and reliably identify what's going where! There's little scope for confusion with an 'internal' class 2 running as 2Sxx, but the same can't be said for class 1s (or, indeed, freights - which seem much better at following the conventions).
 

louis97

Established Member
Joined
14 May 2008
Messages
2,147
Location
Derby
I'd say classing it as a regional service and therefore the 1S and 2S head codes make sense, even if it may be interregional by the head code area terms (Depending on how you define the London Midland regional area), it still remains in the London North Eastern Network Rail Route area throughout its journey, even on the diversion this summer, I'd say this would be the Eastern area.

It is bordered by London North Western North/South and Anglia Routes, which I'd say were the London Midland and Anglia areas respectively.
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,933
Derby and Nottingham are very much 'M', as far as headcodes are concerned (and despite the ever-changing boundaries of the Network Rail 'routes'!), as evidenced by the various 6Mxx freights to Mountsorrel and Toton. WTTs certainly used to make reference to "the former Anglia region", for example). Even if it were considered as a service entirely within one region, I'd still suggest that a 1Sxx headcode would be inappropriate - with the exception of class 2s (where, as above, special 'rules' seem to apply owing to the smaller number of long-distance examples), E, L, M, O, S and V should be reserved for interregional services, apart from a few cases where they're used (1Sxx on the Southern and 1Lxx on the Western) where they're not likely to encounter an interregional train with the same letter!
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
I'd say classing it as a regional service and therefore the 1S and 2S head codes make sense, even if it may be interregional by the head code area terms (Depending on how you define the London Midland regional area), it still remains in the London North Eastern Network Rail Route area throughout its journey, even on the diversion this summer, I'd say this would be the Eastern area.

It is bordered by London North Western North/South and Anglia Routes, which I'd say were the London Midland and Anglia areas respectively.

No, it starts in the East Midland route, and crosses the border to the LNE route between Nottingham and Grantham.

Are you going by the volumes of the Sectional Appendix? Because those don't represent NR's routes, they're just divided up for convenience to make roughly equal books. NR's routes are Anglia, LNE, East Midland (formerly known as Midland and Continental), LNW, Western, Wessex, Sussex, Kent, Scotland and the newly-created Wales route.
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,933
The Sectional Appendix volumes do tie in with NR's 'routes', don't they? East Midlands and LNE certainly have a lot in common now (including the S.A.!), and I don't think they'll be separate for much longer. Doesn't change the fact that the interregional destination letters in headcodes are based on the six former BR regions though :) .
 
Last edited:

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
Doesn't change the fact that the interregional destination letters in headcodes are based on the six former BR regions though :) .

The first letter of the WTT book codes is also based on the former BR regions too, but with different letters to the headcodes:

London Midland: C
Scotland: G
Anglia: L
Western: P
Southern: W
Eastern: Y
 

High Dyke

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2013
Messages
5,006
Location
Yellabelly Country
It seems to have quite a bit of standing time at various points.

Are these purposely inserted photographic stops?

Probably because of the difficulties of the route.

On the outward journey, I imagine the 6 minutes at Peterborough is to allow the driver to change ends [obviously more time needed than for a 2xcar dmu].

Then the Grantham-Skegness stretch has some single-line sections. So the 7 minutes at Sleaford could be to allow the 0915 ex Skegness clear the section from Heckington, and the 6 minutes at Boston to allow the 1015 ex Skegness to clear the section over the Grand Sluice Bridge.
As correctly identified by Welshman, it is for pathing purposes.
 

MCW

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2011
Messages
699
Location
Leicester UK
guys, i want to bash it on the 20th and the first train out of leicester doesn't get to Derby in time, would I have enough time to get the hst at Long Eaton or am i safer jumping at Peterborough?
 

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
If you mean East Coast diverts, I thought they always used either Spalding Sleaford Lincoln or Newark Swinderby Gainsborough.
 

CallySleeper

Established Member
Joined
27 Jun 2006
Messages
1,662
Location
trentbartonland
I was playing a simulation of the 2007 Trent WTT and it is worth pointing out that even then, Skegness services were 2Exx and the returns 2Mxx.
 

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
I think they were renumbered to reduce the chances of misrouting. In theory 2Exx and 2Mxx could be an inter-regional class 2 on ANY route, and Trent PSB needed to discriminate between them.
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,933
I remember reading (in a WTT from the 1990s) that the 2Exx and 2Mxx codes were allocated in 'bands' according to the route between the two regions (so 'via Grantham' would be easily distinguished from 'via Newark', for Netherfield's benefit). Presumably that started to fall apart as the number of class 2s on such routes started to increase beyond a fairly sparse service!
 

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
1S01 Derby Skegness HST appears to have been cancelled today at TOC request, along with a couple of morning DMUs. Anyone know any more?
 
Joined
12 May 2011
Messages
83
Location
Derbyshire
1S01 departed Derby "on time" with 43046+43050.

Unfortunately, at the time of departure, doors were still open and a wheelchair ramp was positioned against the train. It stopped within about 1 foot and it appears the pass-com was activated from coach D. Needless to say, driver and train manager were stood down and with no relief crews due to industrial action by RMT, the train was cancelled and the set eventually returned to Etches Park by a depot driver.

Communication to the on-board passengers was less than adequate and they were eventually directed towards buses for Nottingham - no doubt having to join severely overcrowded DMUs forward. Not a good start to the Nottingham closures
 

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
The problem is when something like that happens customer service can take a back seat, particularly if the person responsible for providing it is relieved of duty. .
 

CC 72100

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2012
Messages
3,850
Unfortunately, at the time of departure, doors were still open and a wheelchair ramp was positioned against the train. It stopped within about 1 foot and it appears the pass-com was activated from coach D. Needless to say, driver and train manager were stood down and with no relief crews due to industrial action by RMT.

Oh :oops: That sounds like a 'tea with no biscuits' meeting in line for those two then :|
 

Qwerty133

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2012
Messages
2,622
Location
Leicester/Sheffield
1S01 departed Derby "on time" with 43046+43050.

Unfortunately, at the time of departure, doors were still open and a wheelchair ramp was positioned against the train. It stopped within about 1 foot and it appears the pass-com was activated from coach D. Needless to say, driver and train manager were stood down and with no relief crews due to industrial action by RMT, the train was cancelled and the set eventually returned to Etches Park by a depot driver.

Communication to the on-board passengers was less than adequate and they were eventually directed towards buses for Nottingham - no doubt having to join severely overcrowded DMUs forward. Not a good start to the Nottingham closures

Drivers are in ASLEF IIRC and I thought it was a senior conductor rather than a train manager that worked said service (it certainly was whichever bank holiday they ran it earlier in the year). However I can't imagine many drivers being cleared on both the route and traction.
As for communication with passengers with the platform staff being on a work to rule and the train crew being stood down there was going to be nobody able to communicate with passengers, and platform staff at derby are hardly the best at it anyway!
 

AlexS

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2005
Messages
2,886
Location
Just outside the Black Country
I may be wrong but I doubt the dispatch staff were involved in it to any critical extent - you'd have to be stark raving bonkers to give the tip with all the doors open and a ramp down.

Much more likely to be a brain fart on the part of the driver or guard, it can happen and a HST has no safeguard to stop you giving RA with the doors open or to stop the train moving with them open.
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,614
The Sectional Appendix volumes do tie in with NR's 'routes', don't they? East Midlands and LNE certainly have a lot in common now (including the S.A.!), and I don't think they'll be separate for much longer.

Indeed, at the risk of going further off topic, the NR Routes structure has Justin Page, Route Managing Director East Midlands reporting to Phil Verster, Route Managing Director London North Eastern.

I suspect EM is a sub size route now that it has lost the "Continental" part of the route?
 

Kettledrum

Member
Joined
13 Nov 2010
Messages
804
1S01 departed Derby "on time" with 43046+43050.

Unfortunately, at the time of departure, doors were still open and a wheelchair ramp was positioned against the train. It stopped within about 1 foot and it appears the pass-com was activated from coach D. Needless to say, driver and train manager were stood down and with no relief crews due to industrial action by RMT, the train was cancelled and the set eventually returned to Etches Park by a depot driver.

Communication to the on-board passengers was less than adequate and they were eventually directed towards buses for Nottingham - no doubt having to join severely overcrowded DMUs forward. Not a good start to the Nottingham closures

What a lousy experience for the passengers. Is it really necessary for the driver and the train manager to be stood down in these circumstances, or is it an example of the old railway motto "never let the passengers get in the way of running a good railway."
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,933
Is it really necessary for the driver and the train manager to be stood down in these circumstances...
Yes, it's standard practice to relieve those involved after an incident such as this, to enable them them to be tested for drugs/alcohol, interviewed and so on. Apart from anything else, would you be happy if your driver had just been involved in a potentially serious incident and was quietly being distracted by various thoughts of the consequences?
...or is it an example of the old railway motto "never let the passengers get in the way of running a good railway."
Passenger convenience comes second to safety, and I don't think many will apologise for that.
 

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
What a lousy experience for the passengers. Is it really necessary for the driver and the train manager to be stood down in these circumstances, or is it an example of the old railway motto "never let the passengers get in the way of running a good railway."

It is called 'for cause' testing, and is there to ensure that the railway is run safely. I'm sure if the police stopped breathalysing those involved in road accidents, you'd look at it differently.
 

High Dyke

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2013
Messages
5,006
Location
Yellabelly Country
...although Hull Trains went that way in their 180 a few months back during a blockade between Grantham and Newark.
Though this last block a few weeks ago saw them use the Joint Line instead.

It will be interesting to see passenger loadings on the HST next Saturday - if it actually runs - compared to the service last year.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top