Derailment causing disruption at Sheffield 09-10-2018

[SideshowBob]

It's all well and good as long as you've still got an announcer. Sheffield might be the exception along with Nottingham which has a jack of all trades customer service assistant who makes announcements, looks after lost property etc but at most large EMT stations when the auto announcer came in the Customer Information Officer posts that fulfilled the announcing function were simply deleted and the staff redeployed.

Consequently there aren't that many humans about to actually make said announcements. You either pull someone off the platforms (if they're trained and happy to do it) or the supervisor has to do it which ties them to a desk effectively.

Centrally recorded messages from control play instead but the usefulness of them varies greatly.

The PA system at least at some stations is set up so that platform dispatch staff and/or train crew can connect to it, override any auto-announcements and make live announcments immediately. For example, platform dispatchers on P13/14 at Manchester Piccadilly have handheld devices which they can use in times of disruption to make live announcements on the PA confirming what trains are going where as they come in, and TPE's 185s have (or, at least, used to have) a system in the cabs for guards to connect wirelessly to the station PA to make similar kinds of announcements - I've seen (and heard) this done at York in the past. I don't know whether such systems are commonplace but can only imagine that the use of them helps in times of disruption - I suppose if the guard of a train has recently been in touch with their control office and therefore has up-to-date information about where their train is going and what connections it might make, plus being able to provide a guide on how busy their train is, that can only be helpful. IMHO, the ability to make live announcements on the hoof is an awful lot better than ATOC Annie just endlessly repeating that such-and-such a train/trains is/are delayed. I don't know if this can be done at Sheffield or whether it would actually have helped in these particular circumstances, but in my experience, hearing a human on the tannoy giving up-to-date information, rather than leaving it to a robot does at least give the feeling that there are still some people in some parts of the railway that want to be helpful to passengers and not just fleece them (not saying @LowLevel has suggested or implied otherwise; just making a general point).

 

[Parham Wood]

If the derailed train ran through signalling cables then these should not have been located in an area where trap points would derail a train.

 

[Elecman]

If the derailed train ran through signalling cables then these should not have been located in an area where trap points would derail a train.

How do yo7 propose they feed the respective signal and points then?

 

[Parham Wood]

How do yo7 propose they feed the respective signal and points then?

They should be routed away from the derailment area taking a longer route perhaps that a direct line. If there is no option to feed something local to the area then just take the circuits for that only and not for other equipment. Of course I agree better to derail and cut the cables and not derail at all leading to a bigger accident.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If the derailed train ran through signalling cables then these should not have been located in an area where trap points would derail a train.

There have been several low speed derailments coming out of Lovers Walk Depot , where the catch points did their job , and both derailed units sliced through critical signalling cables - in both cases virtually shutting Brighton station. After the first , there was a strong recommendation to reroute the cables , of course nothing was done ...almost inevitably there will be a third.

However , a 47 which went straight through Ruscombe relay room back in the day - had the problem solved eventually - (the loop and catch points were removed)

An old , old adage.

 

[Bald Rick]

They should be routed away from the derailment area taking a longer route perhaps that a direct line. If there is no option to feed something local to the area then just take the circuits for that only and not for other equipment. Of course I agree better to derail and cut the cables and not derail at all leading to a bigger accident.

I don’t know the circumstances in this case, but often cables are put there specifically so that they are damaged in a derailment, to help provide additional indication that something has gone wrong.

Splicing cut cables isn’t a particularly difficult job (unless there is a train in the way, obviously).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I don’t know the circumstances in this case, but often cables are put there specifically so that they are damaged in a derailment, to help provide additional indication that something has gone wrong.

Splicing cut cables isn’t a particularly difficult job (unless there is a train in the way, obviously).

Well Boss ..I though track circuit interuptors did that - thinking here of a case at Woofferton where a driver just about managed to stay on the road (just..) , but his lead wheel set broke the TCI and put everything to red as it should have.

 

[Dai Corner]

I don’t know the circumstances in this case, but often cables are put there specifically so that they are damaged in a derailment, to help provide additional indication that something has gone wrong.

Splicing cut cables isn’t a particularly difficult job (unless there is a train in the way, obviously).

I'm not a signalling engineer but if I wanted to do that I'd put a single cable there and detect that being damaged, not a whole bundle of critical ones.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not a signalling engineer but if I wanted to do that I'd put a single cable there and detect that being damaged, not a whole bundle of critical ones.

I think that’s what I meant, not particularly well worded.

There was certainly a derailment of a freight south of Cambridge a while back where exactly this happened. Two other derailments the same day (one at St Albans, not sure about the other) the BRUFF teams had to be prioritised!

 

[Highlandspring]

I once had a day with three fatalities in the same general area one after the other, with the same undertaker attending each in turn.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I'm not a signalling engineer but if I wanted to do that I'd put a single cable there and detect that being damaged, not a whole bundle of critical ones.

Which is basically what a TCI is - an expendable and fairly quickly replaced bit of equipment , which protects the railway of course , without massive disruption.

 

[IanXC]

Two of those I saw were for the next departure(s) i.e. in less than 30 minutes' time. Not being totally dumb myself, I saw this and thought "how can they not know that this won't be happening". It's all very reassuring that the situation is being well managed. Not.

I have since learnt that for a good portion of the duration of this incident P1 and P2 were available for use as effectively North facing bays. So it could be that those "through services" were starting there (as Northern's Nottingham's were) or were diverted via the Old Road due to the reduced capacity in the south throat.

 

[Dai Corner]

BRUFF

British Rail Universal Fixing Force?

 

[MotCO]

In my line of work, I can get involved in Major Incidents, and we establish an Incident Room. One of the key roles allocated is communications.

In a derailment such as this, is an Incident Room set up? In which case, can't the role of communication (both to passengrers and within the industry) be allocated to someone to provide the sort of information some posters believe is lacking?

 

[swt_passenger]

British Rail Universal Fixing Force?

I think the history is that Bruff doesn’t actually stand for anything. It was a firm of road vehicle conversion specialists. They produced the original fleet of road-rail vehicles used to carry re-railing equipment to site. The name has stuck as a nickname for successor vehicles, and their crews.

 

[Highlandspring]

I think the history is that Bruff doesn’t actually stand for anything. It was a firm of road vehicle conversion specialists. They produced the original fleet of road-rail vehicles used to carry re-railing equipment to site. The name has stuck as a nickname for successor vehicles, and their crews.

...is the correct answer!

 

[Dai Corner]

I think the history is that Bruff doesn’t actually stand for anything. It was a firm of road vehicle conversion specialists. They produced the original fleet of road-rail vehicles used to carry re-railing equipment to site. The name has stuck as a nickname for successor vehicles, and their crews.

...is the correct answer!

Ah! Thank you.

 

[swt_passenger]

...is the correct answer!

From memory as well! It’s probably the coincidence that the name starts with BR that leads to a lot of supposition. I think I read a few years ago they started out pre WW2 making agricultural machinery.

 

[LowLevel]

The PA system at least at some stations is set up so that platform dispatch staff and/or train crew can connect to it, override any auto-announcements and make live announcments immediately. For example, platform dispatchers on P13/14 at Manchester Piccadilly have handheld devices which they can use in times of disruption to make live announcements on the PA confirming what trains are going where as they come in, and TPE's 185s have (or, at least, used to have) a system in the cabs for guards to connect wirelessly to the station PA to make similar kinds of announcements - I've seen (and heard) this done at York in the past. I don't know whether such systems are commonplace but can only imagine that the use of them helps in times of disruption - I suppose if the guard of a train has recently been in touch with their control office and therefore has up-to-date information about where their train is going and what connections it might make, plus being able to provide a guide on how busy their train is, that can only be helpful. IMHO, the ability to make live announcements on the hoof is an awful lot better than ATOC Annie just endlessly repeating that such-and-such a train/trains is/are delayed. I don't know if this can be done at Sheffield or whether it would actually have helped in these particular circumstances, but in my experience, hearing a human on the tannoy giving up-to-date information, rather than leaving it to a robot does at least give the feeling that there are still some people in some parts of the railway that want to be helpful to passengers and not just fleece them (not saying @LowLevel has suggested or implied otherwise; just making a general point).

It depends where you are as to what tech is available. Man Picc 13/14 having the hand held equipment is a new development in the last few months.

ECML stations and Anglia have however had it for years. EMT stations are not so equipped.

 

[whhistle]

And “We apologise for the inconvenience” sounds SO much better from a real human...

But does what exactly?
The person saying it probably doesn't mean it.
The person hearing it will probably know they don't mean it.
Thus, the person saying it has lied.

I fail to see why so many people in life demmand apologies when it changes nothing. Their mood hasn't changed, their feelings about the situation are still the same too. NOTHING HAS CHANGED for the majority of people.

Not getting at you BTW :P

 

[DarloRich]

the BRUFF teams had to be prioritised!

it is clear several posters are unsighted in relation to this.

 

[Sunset route]

There have been several low speed derailments coming out of Lovers Walk Depot , where the catch points did their job , and both derailed units sliced through critical signalling cables - in both cases virtually shutting Brighton station. After the first , there was a strong recommendation to reroute the cables , of course nothing was done ...almost inevitably there will be a third.
An old , old adage.

The signalling on departing Lovers Walk Depot has been altered to prevent a train approaching the said shunt signal unless it is showing a proceed first, meaning that the trap points will always be set first before a train can approach form the previous shunt signal. So unless we have a double SPAD or a runaway we shouldn’t have any more. Having said that, the restrictions on the signalling have made operating Brighton just that little bit more difficult.

Back to Sheffield and if they are still using the same numbering at York ROC that Sheffield PSB used prior to it’s migration and from the picture evidence. Then the train should of been waiting at shunt signal 92, it then moved over 4048 trap points set against it.

This resulted in track circuit 171s track circuit interrupter operating (TCI), that would lock all point that go through that track circuit into their last called position which were 4055A2 normal , 4055A1 normal , 4055B normal, 4048 normal, 4049B and 4049A both reverse, when the track circuit flooded, (this assumes that TCI only effects one track circuit which most only do).

Looking at that picture points 4049 A+B that come off Down Main/A Line into platforms one and two were now locked reverse because of the TCI activation. You can’t signal northbound into platforms one and two because of the flooded track circuit, you also can’t signal soothbound into platform one and use the whole platform because of the flooded track in the signal overlap, but they could of been able to signal trains up to signal 116 depending on the signal overlaps. and can’t signal southbound into platform two because points 4049 A+B are locked reverse because of the flooded track.

If they did a release of signalling controls (which is a once only event which requires no train movements within the interlocking area) they could false clear tack circuit 171 to allow points 4049 A+B to be moved into the normal position. Once this is done then they must restore the equipment back to its correct state which re flood track circuit 171. but that would give you platform two back into use from the north and also from the south if they were allowing trains to pass the offending units under normal signalling.

Platform one from the north might require dropping the track circuits in platform on purpose to use the call on even though there would be no train in there assuming that points 4049 A+B are not required in the reverse.

Not sure if any signalling cables were actually damaged or not as reading this thread it only seems they might of been but the activation of the TCI would of caused most if not all of the chaos.

 

[westinghouseB]

It depends where you are as to what tech is available. Man Picc 13/14 having the hand held equipment is a new development in the last few months.

ECML stations and Anglia have however had it for years. EMT stations are not so equipped.

St Pancras platform staff have the handheld PA devices!

 

[Killingworth]

St Pancras platform staff have the handheld PA devices!

Being pedantic, St Pancras is a Network Rail managed station, not East Midlands.

 

[philthetube]

Re #76. The advent of ATP and then TPWS allowed drivers to reduce their focus because they knew subconsciously that there was a backup to them.

When ABS came into cars, it was assumed that it would reduce accidents. Instead cars were driven nearer the limit because the drivers knew that if they had to brake suddenly, the wheels wouldn't lock up.

The more fail-safe technology you build into a car, train or plane, the less engaged the driver/pilot has to be, until it is safer to dispense with the human altogether.

This makes no difference to drivers, they know that have a couple of spads and you are deep in the soft stuff, TWPS does nothing to protect drivers jobs, if anything makes them slightly easier to lose as minor overspeeds come to attention.

It's all well and good as long as you've still got an announcer. Sheffield might be the exception along with Nottingham which has a jack of all trades customer service assistant who makes announcements, looks after lost property etc but at most large EMT stations when the auto announcer came in the Customer Information Officer posts that fulfilled the announcing function were simply deleted and the staff redeployed.

Consequently there aren't that many humans about to actually make said announcements. You either pull someone off the platforms (if they're trained and happy to do it) or the supervisor has to do it which ties them to a desk effectively.

Centrally recorded messages from control play instead but the usefulness of them varies greatly.

Sorry but we hear so often excuses being made for things not being done well on/by the railways, I see it from both sides as staff I feel embarrassed, when we are getting it wrong and then seeing people who are on the job making crappy excuses, and as a passenger I just want to know what my alternatives are and an estimate of delay time or to know if no estimate is available.

In this case EMT management should now be saying, "we got this wrong but we will sort it for nest time". Are they?

 

[Elecman]

Being pedantic, St Pancras is a Network Rail managed station, not East Midlands.

No it isn’t it’s Eurostar’s station

 

[Robertj21a]

No it isn’t it’s Eurostar’s station

Any increase in 3 offers so far for managing St Pancras ?

 

[Dai Corner]

Any increase in 3 offers so far for managing St Pancras ?

It's owned by HS1 Ltd. apparently
https://stpancras.com/station (Small print at the bottom).

Network Rail answer the phone and emails

https://stpancras.com/contact

 

[Bald Rick]

Any increase in 3 offers so far for managing St Pancras ?

The station is owned by HS1 Ltd, with elements managed on their behalf under contract by Network Rail (High Speed) Ltd. Naturally most customer facing roles, including dispatch, are provided by the relevant train operators.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The signalling on departing Lovers Walk Depot has been altered to prevent a train approaching the said shunt signal unless it is showing a proceed first, meaning that the trap points will always be set first before a train can approach form the previous shunt signal. So unless we have a double SPAD or a runaway we shouldn’t have any more.

Excellent , Glad to hear of that .....very proactive. Lessons learnt.