Derailment causing disruption at Sheffield 09-10-2018

[Harry26]

It was a double header which suggests heavily used. I suspect a Commuter Leeds bound service, maybe the Regular 18 minutes or 45 minutes past the hour

 

[mjn]

Oh, just an afterthought, I’ve watched Sheffield station for a long time but never seen Northern 142 030 or 142 039 - anyone any idea where they operate ??

I've mainly seen these 2 in Lancashire & Cheshire. Ive seen 142030 at Piccadilly a few times and last saw it at Chester. 142039 was parked in the bay at Wigan NW on Sunday evening.

 

[Crossover]

It was a double header which suggests heavily used. I suspect a Commuter Leeds bound service, maybe the Regular 18 minutes or 45 minutes past the hour

Posted just upthread that it was a shunt move

 

[Harry26]

Mjn - thank you

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I might have guessed it was a Pacer (thought it may also have been a freight train) - I remember looking at Wikipedia and reading a few incidents involving Pacers - largely 142's I think.

The reason why I also perhaps thought a Freight train is that even though derailments are extremely rare in the UK, it's nearly always a Freight train that's reported to derail.

If commuters who use Pacers every day get wind of this then that's gonna mean a lot of words said to Northern.

Luckily Northern will probably have a spare DMU or Pacer to run in place!

 

[Crossover]

I might have guessed it was a Pacer (thought it may also have been a freight train) - I remember looking at Wikipedia and reading a few incidents involving Pacers - largely 142's I think.

The reason why I also perhaps thought a Freight train is that even though derailments are extremely rare in the UK, it's nearly always a Freight train that's reported to derail.

If commuters who use Pacers every day get wind of this then that's gonna mean a lot of words said to Northern.

Luckily Northern will probably have a spare DMU or Pacer to run in place!

If the reports coming through on the thread are correct, the rolling stock may not have played a part in it!

 

[bb21]

If commuters who use Pacers every day get wind of this then that's gonna mean a lot of words said to Northern.

Let's clear that one up before anyone gets the wrong idea. It was NOT a unit fault.

 

[sprinterguy]

I might have guessed it was a Pacer (thought it may also have been a freight train) - I remember looking at Wikipedia and reading a few incidents involving Pacers - largely 142's I think.

The reason why I also perhaps thought a Freight train is that even though derailments are extremely rare in the UK, it's nearly always a Freight train that's reported to derail.

If commuters who use Pacers every day get wind of this then that's gonna mean a lot of words said to Northern.

Luckily Northern will probably have a spare DMU or Pacer to run in place!

There's nothing that's suggested the type of rolling stock is to blame for this incident.

Also I'm not sure how you can be under the illusion that Northern have diesel stock to spare!

 

[dk1]

There isn't technically a "Cat 'A' SPAD" anymore, as a SPAD is by definition only Cat A nowadays.
Anything that used to be the other categories is now a SPAR ("Signal Passed At Red") because apparently passing a signal is only dangerous if the driver does it. (Cynical, moi?)

Before the recategorisation into SPAD and SPAR, the summary was Cat A = drivers fault; Cat B = signallers fault or technical problem with the signalling; Cat C = signaller making a safety intervention and Cat D was a runaway vehicle/train.
Nowadays Cat B is a "Technical SPAR", Cat C "Signaller SPAR" and Cat D "Runaway SPAR".

I personally believe that the reclassification from SPADs to SPARs is to make the others appear less serious than the "driver-at-fault-until-proven-otherwise" Cat A, and having at one time suffered a signaller-error Cat B approximately every 2 weeks for a six-month period I find that unreasonable.

Hilarious because I'm a driver instructor & never even knew that I still call it a Cat A & it appeared on an internal memo as a Cat A so seems like old habits & phrases die hard. Must stop calling a section signal a starter too.

 

[Robertj21a]

I might have guessed it was a Pacer (thought it may also have been a freight train) - I remember looking at Wikipedia and reading a few incidents involving Pacers - largely 142's I think.

The reason why I also perhaps thought a Freight train is that even though derailments are extremely rare in the UK, it's nearly always a Freight train that's reported to derail.

If commuters who use Pacers every day get wind of this then that's gonna mean a lot of words said to Northern.

Luckily Northern will probably have a spare DMU or Pacer to run in place!

I thought it had been stated already that the unit itself was not at fault - so why is anyone going to have a lot of words to say to Northern ?

 

[Iskra]

Let's clear that one up before anyone gets the wrong idea. It was NOT a unit fault.

I think he's more suggesting Northern are now short of units to form services for tomorrow morning.

Either way, it's alarmist speculation at its finest.

 

[Doubleyellow]

Don't most signal protecting points have TSS? Or was it FRL for the shunt move?

 

[edwin_m]

There isn't technically a "Cat 'A' SPAD" anymore, as a SPAD is by definition only Cat A nowadays.
Anything that used to be the other categories is now a SPAR ("Signal Passed At Red") because apparently passing a signal is only dangerous if the driver does it. (Cynical, moi?)

Before the recategorisation into SPAD and SPAR, the summary was Cat A = drivers fault; Cat B = signallers fault or technical problem with the signalling; Cat C = signaller making a safety intervention and Cat D was a runaway vehicle/train.
Nowadays Cat B is a "Technical SPAR", Cat C "Signaller SPAR" and Cat D "Runaway SPAR".

I personally believe that the reclassification from SPADs to SPARs is to make the others appear less serious than the "driver-at-fault-until-proven-otherwise" Cat A, and having at one time suffered a signaller-error Cat B approximately every 2 weeks for a six-month period I find that unreasonable.

Cat A means the signal may have been passed when no route was ever set, so the train could come into conflict with another train. For the other (SPAR) categories the train is still protected by the interlocking (approach locking keeps the route locked even if the signal drops back to red) except in the very unusual case of a wrong-side interlocking failure. Therefore a Cat A potentially has much more serious consequences.

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[WestRiding]

It was a Signal Passed at Danger! The trap points correctly did what they are designed to do, they derailed the train, when the red signal was passed. It was a shunt move. The unit upon derailing, cut the signalling cable, mainly affecting moves at the south end into 1, 2, 2c, and 5. It affected S79 signal specifically as the signal was un-lit after the cable was cut by the unit. The shunt move was moving from the wash road, to stand on the shunt spur, which is where the SPAD happened.

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[WestRiding]

Everyone I know still refers to categories and calls all of them SPADs regardless of what some office-dwelling word-player has decided they should be called.
At the end of the day call it what you like, the signal was displaying a red danger aspect, and it is therefore a signal passed at danger. Playing with terminology won't change that.


You appear to be falling into the industry's usual trap of assuming the only risk after passing a signal at danger is the railway. It isn't.

I once had a Cat B onto a main (A) road level crossing because the signaller had put the wrong lever back. I was later told that the signaller had admitted that he'd been about to raise the barriers as well. Not as risky as any Cat A would have been, though, eh?

I would like to think that the barriers, would still be locked by the signal interlocking, for at least 2 mins after the signal was put back to danger. Though not 'always' the case.

 

[Sunset route]

From colleagues at Sheffield I have the following, which they say is already in the public domain (so can be repeated here).

• Northern unit has derailed on catch points at Fish Dock.
  • Unable to use 1, 2 & 5 Platforms from the South.
• The derailed train has cut signalling cable, with the result that:
  • S79 & S80 signals black; and
  • S85 & S84 need to be passed at danger departing south.
• 5P09 is apparently not the culprit.

Trap points not catch points. Trap points which are fully controlled and protect the running line from joining sidings and loops and will deliberately derail a train should it pass the protecting signal when it’s not showing proceed, however catch points are uaaully placed on gradients to catch runaway vehicles in the wrong directions, most were unworked (spring loaded).

 

[MarkyT]

I would like to think that the barriers, would still be locked by the signal interlocking, for at least 2 mins after the signal was put back to danger. Though not 'always' the case.

There was a fatal level crossing accident at Moreton on Lugg in 2010 due to the lack of a timed approach locking release on the barriers after replacement of a signal in a traditional mechanical box. Many mechanical boxes already had the modern approach release controls applied and the particular site was probably fairly unusual at the time, but new risk assessment criteria were recommended after investigation that resulted in wider application.
https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/fatal-accident-at-moreton-on-lugg-near-hereford

 

[MarkyT]

Trap points not catch points.

Beat me to it!

 

[Sunset route]

Beat me to it!

Lol

 

[DarloRich]

I might have guessed it was a Pacer (thought it may also have been a freight train) - I remember looking at Wikipedia and reading a few incidents involving Pacers - largely 142's I think.

The reason why I also perhaps thought a Freight train is that even though derailments are extremely rare in the UK, it's nearly always a Freight train that's reported to derail.

If commuters who use Pacers every day get wind of this then that's gonna mean a lot of words said to Northern.

Luckily Northern will probably have a spare DMU or Pacer to run in place!

how do you suppose a fault with the unit caused it to derail? Did the wheel fall off or the axle explode?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

The reason I thought it was a unit fault was it was said on page 1 of this thread that one of the axles fell off or something.

Also, even if it meant causing overcrowding, I'd have thought Northern would take a DMU off another service to run in the Pacers place until it's fixed.

CrossCountry will sometimes run a single Voyager set instead of a double if a Voyager is desperately needed.

 

[Crossover]

The reason I thought it was a unit fault was it was said on page 1 of this thread that one of the axles fell off or something.

If anything, that the axle (or two in this case) were off the track - not that they physically came off the undercarriage

 

[twpsaesneg]

The reason I thought it was a unit fault was it was said on page 1 of this thread that one of the axles fell off or something.

Sorry that was my terminology.

One axle completely off as in off the rails, not fallen off the train. Turns out that it was lot more than that anyway, only so much you can see from side on from another train!

 

[DarloRich]

The reason I thought it was a unit fault was it was said on page 1 of this thread that one of the axles fell off or something.

Also, even if it meant causing overcrowding, I'd have thought Northern would take a DMU off another service to run in the Pacers place until it's fixed.

CrossCountry will sometimes run a single Voyager set instead of a double if a Voyager is desperately needed.

Fair enough - it simply meant the train had derailed and that both wheels on one of the axles had come off the track not that the axle had broken.

 

[SideshowBob]

They kinda don't really exist or at least shouldn't.

I personally believe that the reclassification from SPADs to SPARs is to make the others appear less serious than the "driver-at-fault-until-proven-otherwise" Cat A, and having at one time suffered a signaller-error Cat B approximately every 2 weeks for a six-month period I find that unreasonable.

Surely, no SPAD should ever "exist", i.e. actually happen?? I thought that ATP was supposed to prevent them, and that after Southall/Ladbroke Grove, all locos and multiple units had to have ATP fitted and in working order, otherwise they couldn't be used?

I know there are circumstances under which trains have to be talked through signals set at danger, and also that there are occasions when signals turn red when the train is virtually on top of them and there is no way for the driver to stop in time but in general, I thought SPADs were a thing of the past. As a lay person, it's quite shocking to hear that they arent! Does anyone have any figures they could share on how often they're still happening, and/or how many per year across the network?

 

[dgl]

Surely, no SPAD should ever "exist", i.e. actually happen?? I thought that ATP was supposed to prevent them, and that after Southall/Ladbroke Grove, all locos and multiple units had to have ATP fitted and in working order, otherwise they couldn't be used?

ATP is only on the Chiltern Main Line and the Great Western Main Line (plus CTRL/HS1 of course), and not all unit's that work these lines have it fitted, The Cambrian in Wales has ERTMS which is an even more advanced version of the older ATP system. TPWS(+) is what's fitted to a lot of signals and that will stop the train automatically, but not necessarily in time to pass a signal at danger. In this situation it's likely only AWS is fitted and that can only warn of a restrictive aspect bit so long as the warning is cancelled the train will not brake automatically.

 

[Crossover]

Surely, no SPAD should ever "exist", i.e. actually happen?? I thought that ATP was supposed to prevent them, and that after Southall/Ladbroke Grove, all locos and multiple units had to have ATP fitted and in working order, otherwise they couldn't be used?

I know there are circumstances under which trains have to be talked through signals set at danger, and also that there are occasions when signals turn red when the train is virtually on top of them and there is no way for the driver to stop in time but in general, I thought SPADs were a thing of the past. As a lay person, it's quite shocking to hear that they arent! Does anyone have any figures they could share on how often they're still happening, and/or how many per year across the network?

ATP is only fitted to a small number of areas and Sheffield isn’t one (to the best of my knowledge anyway)

As this was a shunt move, it may have been even less protected

In the event, the trap points have served their purpose in diverting the unit from anything more serious, as dramatic as the end result appears

 

[MarkyT]

Surely, no SPAD should ever "exist", i.e. actually happen?? I thought that ATP was supposed to prevent them, and that after Southall/Ladbroke Grove, all locos and multiple units had to have ATP fitted and in working order, otherwise they couldn't be used?

I know there are circumstances under which trains have to be talked through signals set at danger, and also that there are occasions when signals turn red when the train is virtually on top of them and there is no way for the driver to stop in time but in general, I thought SPADs were a thing of the past. As a lay person, it's quite shocking to hear that they arent! Does anyone have any figures they could share on how often they're still happening, and/or how many per year across the network?

The protection system known as TPWS is widely fitted on the UK network. This cannot always prevent a SPAD, but is designed to stop a train from reaching a conflict point in a junction in the event of an actual or anticipated SPAD. In the case of sidings, exit signals are not usually fitted with TPWS equipment but the track connections have always been equipped with 'trap points' or derailler devices which operate together with the junction points where the siding joins the main line. If a train attempts to exit a siding without a clear signal and route set it should be derailed before it reaches any conflict point, which is exactly what has occurred at Sheffield in this case. Once such a derailment has occurred, other movements in the area are often prevented due to track, signalling equipment and associated cabling damage, and the trap points are invariably fitted with an 'interrupter' device that is triggered by the derailing train to deliberately place the track circuits in the vicinity to occupied status and hence prevent any further train movement until the situation has been assessed, debris cleared and equipment restored to normal service.