Derailment at Sudbury

[90019]

I think it raises questions about these agencies and hauliers. I notice BM tankering (not saying it was their fault) was involved with another accident.

http://www.safetynetscotland.co.uk/latest_news/art/140/

That's completely irrelevant as it was not the hauliers fault that it exploded. It could have happened to any company at all, just coincidentally happened to the same one, so I don't know why you had to bring it up?

I don't understand what questions you think that could raise about the hauliers?

 

[Flywaver]

I almost went into a rant over comments about nationalities as i have my own connections from Eastern Europe....
It's easy for many to point to finger at background. But i point the finger at complacency. How many accidents have there been with (for example) TomToms guiding fools onto level crossings...

 

[jamesontheroad]

Meanwhile, for a little bit of international context, here's an incident that happened in Iowa a few days ago. Man killed driving out of his farm. Because the rail line crosses a private driveway rather than a public paved road, there was no obligation for the locomotive to sound its horn, let alone any kind of telephone system.

http://kgan.com/shared/newsroom/top_stories/videos/kgan_vid_3192.shtml
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PS. And this from the latest BBC report (with helicopter footage of the accident site):

The seriously hurt passenger, a 58-year-old man, sustained life-threatening abdominal injuries, British Transport Police said.

= forward facing seated passenger thrown against a table. Just the reporting of the Ladbrooke Grove disaster has caused me to always choose backwards-facing seats ever since. These are not pleasant injuries to recover from.

 

[Metroland]

That's completely irrelevant as it was not the hauliers fault that it exploded. It could have happened to any company at all, just coincidentally happened to the same one, so I don't know why you had to bring it up?

I don't understand what questions you think that could raise about the hauliers?

I would think it was fairly obvious, are corners being cut in the name of profits?

The profit v safety argument applies just as much to other compaines as well as those involved with the railways. I sincerely hope they are hounded as much by the press and authorities, though somehow I doubt it.

 

[GB]

Surely all this would be covered in the highway code.

You do not need any expeirence or prior knowledge of how to use UWCs as all the information and instructions will already be there.

 

[Metroland]

Quite so, but are these foreign drivers conversant with the highway code? You can certainly drive in France or Germany holding a UK license with a very scant knowledge of their systems.

Another inequality, you can get a car or truck license and drive quite merrily for years without any sort of a regular examination or test. There are a good number of professional and non-professional drivers that shouldn't even be on the road, and this needs tackling first before talk of even more safety systems to protect against idiocy aka Paul 1609.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Quite so, but are these foreign drivers conversant with the highway code? You can certainly drive in France or Germany holding a UK license with a very scant knowledge of their systems.

I think that's a very important point, especially given the potential for misconstruing such comments as:

Apparently, reports saying the driver of the HGV is of 'Eastern European' origin. Well, that just about says it all really. We have them all the time at work bringing in deliveries, more trouble than they're worth! :-/

Likewise a British driver working in Poland probably being more trouble than he's worth. With barely a few exceptions any citizen can travel to any country and have their driving license accepted as proof of driving ability. Any allusion to the truck driver's nationality should be made within the understanding that if any person drives in almost any another country, there are very few obligations to learn or be tested on local road rules. I believe that it's the same with HGV licenses (although someone may correct me).

It's the responsibility of the (for example) French driver in Britain to adhere to British laws just as much as it's my obligation to adhere to the local laws in France. But very few countries (and it's not just the EU) have the resources or inclination to test every non-national who rents / buys or is employed to drive a vehicle. I've rented dozens of cars in Canada and the USA, and not one rental clerk ever told me about the legality of turning right on red lights (or, more importantly, where it's illegal to do it!).

Bottom line: if the driver was at fault, he was at fault. It has nothing to do with his racial origin or nationality. End of lesson from your friendly anti-racist-Guardian-reading-liberal

 

[90019]

I would think it was fairly obvious, are corners being cut in the name of profits?

But that would be the company fitting the tyre cutting corners which is of no relevance to the hauler involved.

 

[Metroland]

I think I pointed this out. But nevertheless with all these things, it ought to be looked into how these companies and agencies are run. It certainly would be on the railways and people either sacked or moved to different jobs.

 

[jon0844]

[off topic]

How many accidents have there been with (for example) TomToms guiding fools onto level crossings...

A TomTom will never guide people onto a level crossing. These fools are simply not following instructions properly.

In the case of a TomTom, it can be set to tell you when there's a turn AHEAD. Not now, not in 10 metres, but ahead. It's an advance warning so you can be prepared to change lanes well ahead of time. Sadly, it can be taken as being an instruction to turn when you next see a turn. An instruction is 'In xx yards, turn left' followed by 'turn left'. And given that I've been with both TeleAtlas and Navteq who go around mapping roads to incredible detail and accuracy, I'd swear on my life that no SatNav has ever told anyone to turn onto a railway line.

You can turn this 'ahead' instruction off (actually, I think it might even be turned off by default), but some fools clearly don't look and just trust their SatNav implicitly. Perhaps they should not be allowed to drive at all. Nor should haulage companies allow (or supply) consumer SatNav products to HGV drivers when the map data on a device you'd buy in Tesco or Halfords is stripped of all the data that they would need (low bridges, narrow roads etc).

When I was in Germany two months ago, my TomTom wanted me to turn down a no-entry (the roads in town had obviously changed). I overruled it and drove on! I wonder how many people, with the same device and the same map data, will be making that mistake between now and whenever they get their map updated?

Anyway, this was off topic, so I apologise.
[/off topic]

 

[Geezertronic]

Sorry if this has been posted before but BBC News have put up an article entitled "Are level crossings safe enough?" - wondered how long it would take...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11009227

 

[33056]

Ref. comments regarding use of these crossings and the background of the lorry driver - a 'box I worked over 20 years ago had a UWC for which there was a separate book to the TRB to record all calls from said crossing.

It was not unusual to go two or three days without anything being recorded however, a foggy morning would soon produce a few entries to give an idea of how much the crossing was really used :roll:

So, nothing has changed - it is just down to lazy / in a hurry / ignorant human beings, whatever their origins.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Last year, it said all level crossings were unsafe and called for them to be scrapped and replaced with bridges or underpasses over a period of 10 years.

And the cost...? Level crossings are perfectly safe, its just the people who use them, don't attempt to cross when barriers are closing, and follow the instructions on the signs. If somebody got run over on a zebra crossing, they wouldn't want them all removed would they?

 

[Metroland]

I think the main ones *should* be replaced because they add cost to the railway and inconvenience to road users, the question is how to pay for it. Personally I don't think a £1000 fine is anything like harsh enough for mis-use considering the consequences.

I'd be tempted to add a zero to the end of that, and unlimited fines and lifetime driving ban for any crashes where the road user is at fault, which is commensurate to other H&S breaches.

With 3500 cases of misuse per year, you could raise enough money for a rolling programme of getting rid of at least 20 per annum.

 

[NXEA!]

I hope everybody recovers quickly from this unfortunate incident. The Sudbury line is my local line and i quite often catch the 17.31 and quite often especially on a friday it is busier with around 40 or even 50 passengers on board so in a way it was better that it happened on a tuesday. As for the lorry driver he should be banned from driving for putting that many lives at risk.

 

[Crossover]

(sorry I've not quoted the varus things people have said prior but it'll take too long)

With regards to signals on the line, from a report I saw previously about something which happened at Sudbury a few years back, there is a track circuit at Sudbury, which has to be activated before clearance (by phone I believe) is given for a return working (came up as part of the wiggly wire thread)
I guess if you were going to be picky you could say that a sensor could be on the crossing which alerts the driver by wireless signal, but again the cost would be prohibitive for the likelyhood of there been a problem when a safeguard is already in place (by means of the crossing phone)

With the line being closed - as it is only single track there is no way to bypass the area and I with it only being a short branch, may be seen as less of a priority than a major arterial line would for reopening.
How long did it take for the line up in Scotland to reopen after the derailment the other week?

With motorway closures, only today the M1 southbound was closed for over 8 hours (04:45 - 13:30) due to a fatal accident involving 4 lorries between Jn 15 and 14 so it does happen. I would think aside from evidence gathering with is obviously a necessity, access would also play a part in recovery time. A number of railway lines are pretty remote and trains are also heavy whereas road vehicles can be relatively easily recovered and are, by their nature, accessible, and so can be (even if only partly while repair works to the road are carried out) reopened or diversions put in place via minor roads etc - rails are going to take longer and cause more disruption
From the BBC News story, it appears the tanker has already been recovered but the train needs a 100 tonne crane which will be on site at a later time.

As with everyone else though, I wish the injured a speedy recovery, especially the driver and the passenger who seem to have been the most seriously injured.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Taken from the BBC Video footage they have...

It amazes me sometimes what can be repaired.

When you look at the damage the tree did when it hit the HST the other week, it looks pretty hurrendous. Yet, since it doesn't appear to have damaged the major loco structure, within a few months (well, maybe ) it will be back out again looking as good as new!

 

[GearJammer]

I hope everybody recovers quickly from this unfortunate incident. The Sudbury line is my local line and i quite often catch the 17.31 and quite often especially on a friday it is busier with around 40 or even 50 passengers on board so in a way it was better that it happened on a tuesday. As for the lorry driver he should be banned from driving for putting that many lives at risk.

I'll second that!

 

[paul1609]

Hang on if the only signalling is at marks Tey and a track circuit at Sudbury. How the hell does the signaller at Liverpool St know if its safe to cross?
If a train has just left Marks Tey does he ask the lorry driver to wait for 20 minutes to cross or does he make an educted guess?

 

[Z12XE]

The Sudbury line is my local line and i quite often catch the 17.31 and quite often especially on a friday it is busier with around 40 or even 50 passengers on board so in a way it was better that it happened on a tuesday.

I know playing what if is pointless, but it was lucky that it wasn't 10 minutes earlier, the 1707 from MKT had about 60-70 people on board on arrival at Sudbury, or worse later and the 1805 which would have been full.

 

[GB]

Hang on if the only signalling is at marks Tey and a track circuit at Sudbury. How the hell does the signaller at Liverpool St know if its safe to cross?
If a train has just left Marks Tey does he ask the lorry driver to wait for 20 minutes to cross or does he make an educted guess?

Similar to the East Suffolk line between Westerfield and Oulton Broad South I'd imagine, which is to say the signaller will contact the train driver on the radio system and ask for his location.

Either way there is no guessing.

 

[IanXC]

Could the gates on these crossings be controlled via a remote operated lock? There are systems which allow a lock to be released remotely using mobile phone technology, a quick google reveals kit for about £200, so 2 gates per crossing plus labour, kit fitted into signal box... £2000 per crossing? Would be something similar to the lock many flats have to enable people to be "buzzed" in.

Potentially not for remote farm crossings, but the more used ones such as this would be improved by *forcing* the user to call the signal box to unlock the gates.

 

[Old Timer]

I put my pension on the following :-

1- The gates were both open to the road

2 - The crossing telephones are hardly if ever used

3 - The gates were secured open

4 - Network Rail were aware of this

5 - Local traincrews were aware but never bothered to report

6 - There will have been near misses in the past

7 - There has been no effective enforcement action taken against road users

Less likely (one hopes) is that

(a) there may well have been restrictions to visibility from encroaching vegetation

(b) the whistle board is not always being obeyed



If even just a few of these things are present you can forget any serious action against the lorry driver. His Lawyers will take the Prosecution to town.

 

[GB]

Police, Camera, Action is about to show a special on ITV1 about lorries and "why they are amoung the biggest killers on our roads".

Should be interesting given the nature of some of the posts in this topic!

 

[GearJammer]

Police, Camera, Action is about to show a special on ITV1 about lorries and "why they are amoung the biggest killers on our roads".

Should be interesting given the nature of some of the posts in this topic!

Well of corse its a 'special' GB unlike other motorists we don't do enough wrong to make it a regular series

 

[GB]

Ha Ha, fair play!

 

[paul1609]

Old Timer says what Paul 1609 was thinking but wouldnt put in print for fear of upsetting the railway taliban (Swanage Branch)

 

[yorksrob]

TBH if Old Timer is right, it just shows what a shambles our legal system is.

 

[Old Timer]

I spent several years in various locations / jobs trying to remove the problem, with some success but often hampered by local Councils who were to a one unhelpful and in some cases downright obstructive.

The legal system was also not particularly helpful, especially Magistrates who treated level crossing misuse as an irritant to their main aim of punishing speeders :roll: :roll: :roll:

So been there, seen it, got the t-shirt, and the experience of going out to the inevitable collisions.

 

[GB]

There is absoloutly no evidence at this point to suggest that A: The gates were secured open B: That the train crew were aware of this and didn't report it and C: That Network Rail were aware of any potential issues.

OT is welcome to his opinion but perhaps it would be wise to wait for the report before speculating on this one incident?...unless he knows something we don't (and Ive seen the pager messages and the logs)

 

[yorksrob]

Well, I suppose we can live in hope that they might decide to take the issue seriously for a change!